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Author Topic: Can a council ever be abrogated?  (Read 1772 times)

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Offline soulguard

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Can a council ever be abrogated?
« on: February 17, 2014, 10:49:02 AM »
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  • I think of course of Vatican 2, and whether the conciliar church, or the vatican, could ever undo everything by rejecting the council in its entirety. Is it possible that the vatican could some day abrogate all of the changes and see them as invalid. Was the council protected by infallibility?


    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Can a council ever be abrogated?
    « Reply #1 on: February 17, 2014, 12:57:14 PM »
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  • Synod of Pistoia

    Held 18 to 28 September, 1786, by Scipio de’ Ricci, Bishop of Pistoia and Prato. It marks the most daring effort ever made to secure for Jansenism and allied errors a foothold in Italy. Peter Leopold, created Grand Duke of Tuscany in 1763, emulated the example of his brother, Emperor Joseph II, in assuming to control religious affairs in the domain. Imbued with Regalism and Jansenism he extended a misguided zeal for reform to minutest details of discipline and worship. In two instructions of 2 August, 1785, and 26 January, 1786, he sent to each of the bishops of Tuscany a series of fifty-seven "points of view of His Royal Highness" on doctrinal, disciplinary, and liturgical matters, directing that diocesan synods be held every two years to enforce reform in the Church and "to restore to the bishops their native rights abusively usurped by the Roman Court". Of the eighteen Tuscan bishops but three convoked the synod ; and of these his only partisan was Scipio de’ Ricci in whom he found a kindred spirit. Born in 1714 of an eminent family, de’ Ricci gave early promise of worth and eminence. Made Bishop of Pistoia and Prato, the most populous of the Tuscan dioceses, 19 June, 1780, he planned and energetically pursued, with the encouragement of Pius VI, the work of much-needed reform, but influenced by the times, his zeal came to be marked by reckless audacity. He condemned devotion to the Sacred Heart, discouraged the use of relics and images, undervalued indulgences, improvised liturgy, and founded a press for Jansenistic propaganda. On 31 July, 1786, de’ Ricci, in convoking the synod, invoked the authority of Pius VI who had previously recommended a synod as the normal means of diocesan reform. With characteristic energy and prevision he prepared for the council by inviting from without his diocese, theologians and canonists notorious for Gallican and Jansenistic tendencies, and issued to his clergy pronouncements which reflected the dominant errors of the times. On 18 September, 1786, the synod was opened in the church of St. Leopold in Pistoia and continued through seven sessions until 28 September. De’ Ricci presided, and at his right sat the royal commissioner, Giuseppe Paribeni, professor at the University of Pisa , and a regalist. The promoter was Pietro Tamburini, professor at the University of Pavia , conspicuous for his learning and for Jansenistic sympathies. At the opening session 234 members were present; but at the fifth session 246 attended, of whom 180 were pastors, 13 canons, 12 chaplains, 28 simple priests of the secular clergy, and 13 regulars. Of these many, including even the promoter, were extra-diocesans irregularly intruded by de’ Ricci because of their sympathy with his designs. Several Pistorian priests were not invited while the clergy of Prato, where feeling against the bishop was particularly strong, was all but ignored.

    The points proposed by the grand duke and the innovations of the bishop were discussed with warmth and no little acerbity. The Regalists pressed their audacity to heretical extremes, and evoked protests from the papal adherents. Though these objections led to some modifications, the propositions of Leopold were substantially accepted, the four Gallican Articles of the Assembly of the French Clergy of 1682 were adopted, and the reform programme of de’ Ricci carried out virtually in its entirety. The theological opinions were strongly Jansenistic. Among the vagaries proposed were: the right of civil authority to create matrimonial impediments ; the reduction of all religious ourders to one body with a common habit and no perpetual vows ; a vernacular liturgy with but one altar in a church etc. Two hundred and thirty-three members signed the acts in the final session of 28 September, when the synod adjourned intending to reconvene in the following April and September. In February, 1787, the first edition (thirty-five hundred copies) of the Acts and Decrees appeared, bearing the royal imprimatur. De’ Ricci, wishing the Holy See to believe that the work was approved by his clergy, summoned his priests to pastoral retreat in April with a view to obtaining their signatures to an acceptance of the synod. Only twenty- seven attended, and of these twenty refused to sign. Leopold meantime summoned all the Tuscan bishops to meet at Florence, 22 April, 1787, to pave the way for acceptance of the Pistorian decrees at a provincial council ; but the assembled bishops vigorously opposed his project and after nineteen stormy sessions he dismissed the assembly and abandoned hope of the council. De’ Ricci became discredited, and, after Leopold's accession to the imperial throne in 1790, was compelled to resign his see. Pius VI commissioned four bishops, assisted by theologians of the secular clergy, to examine the Pistorian enactments, and deputed a congregation of cardinals and bishops to pass judgment on them. They condemned the synod and stigmatized eighty-five of its propositions as erroneous and dangerous. Pius VI on 28 August, 1794, dealt the death-blow to the influence of the synod and of Jansenism in Italy in his Bull "Auctorem Fidei".
    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)


    Offline icterus

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    Can a council ever be abrogated?
    « Reply #2 on: February 17, 2014, 02:14:28 PM »
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  • Diocesan synod =/= ecuмencial council.

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Can a council ever be abrogated?
    « Reply #3 on: February 17, 2014, 02:26:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: icterus
    Diocesan synod =/= ecuмencial council.


    It's the only thing that came to mind. VII, though, will have to be thrown in the trash some day as the council that brought about the triumph of Modernism.
    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline Stubborn

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    Can a council ever be abrogated?
    « Reply #4 on: February 17, 2014, 02:55:24 PM »
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  • Christ and the True Church, through the decree of Pope Pius II, Execrabilis have rendered all the acts of the Council, and all that are done by virtue of the Council, null and void.


    Wikipedia states: Execrabilis is a papal bull issued by Pope Pius II on 18 January 1460 condemning conciliarism. The bull received its name from the opening word of its Latin text, which labelled as "execrable" all efforts to appeal an authoritative ruling of a Pope to a council.



                                                                      Execrabilis


    1.  An execrable, and in former ages unheard-of abuse, has sprung up in our time; namely, that some people, imbued with the spirit of rebellion, presume to appeal to a future council from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Jesus Christ, to whom it was said in the person of blessed Peter: "Feed my sheep" and "Whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven."  They do not do so because they are anxious to obtain sounder judgment, but in order to escape the consequences of their sins, and anyone who is not ignorant of the laws can realize how contrary this is to the sacred canons and how detrimental to the Christian community.  Because, passing over other things which are most manifestly opposed to this corruption, who would not find it ridiculous when appeals are made to what does not exist and the time of whose future existence nobody knows?  The poor are oppressed in many ways by the stronger, crimes remain unpunished, freedom is conceded to delinquents and hierarchical order is confounded.

    2.  Wishing therefore to thrust away from Christ's Church this pestilent venom, to take care of the salvation of all those who have been committed to us, and to hold off from the sheepfold of our Saviour all cause of scandal, we condemn appeals of this kind by the counsel of all prelates and juris-consults of Divine and human law adhering to the Curia and on the ground of our sure knowledge; and we denounce them as erroneous and detestable, quash and entirely annul them in the event that any such appeals, extant at present, may be discovered, and we declare and determine that they are, like something void and pestilent, of no significance.  Consequently, we enjoin that nobody dares under whatever pretext to make such an appeal from any of our ordinances, sentences or commands and from those of our successors, or to adhere to such appeals, made by others, or to use them in any manner.

         3.  If any one, of whatever status, rank, order or condition he may be, even if adorned with imperial, royal or Papal dignity, shall contravene this after the space of two months from the day of the publication of this Bull by the Apostolic Chancery, he shall ipso facto incur sentence of anathema, from which he cannot be absolved except by the Roman Pontiff and at the point of death.  A university or a corporation shall be subjected to an ecclesiastical interdict; nonetheless, corporations and universities, like the aforesaid and any other persons, shall incur those penalties and censures which offenders who have committed the crimen laesae maiestatis and promoters or heretical depravity are known to incur.  Furthermore, scriveners and witnesses who shall witness acts of this kind and, in general, all those who shall knowingly furnish counsel, help or favor to such appealers, shall be punished with the same penalty.

         4.  Therefore, it is not allowed to any man to infringe or to oppose by audacious perversion this charter of our will, by which we have condemned, reproved, quashed, annulled, decreed, declared and ordered the aforesaid.  If anyone, however, shall so attempt, let him know that he shall incur the indignation of Almighty God and of Saints Peter and Paul, His apostles.

         Given at Mantua, in the year 1460 of the Lord's Incarnation, on the fifteenth day before the Calends of February, in the second year of our pontificate.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline icterus

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    Can a council ever be abrogated?
    « Reply #5 on: February 17, 2014, 03:06:14 PM »
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  • yeah, Stubborn...you've got some 'splainin' to do.  How does the bull against councilarism abrogate a particular council?  

    Maybe you have a great point here...but you're going to have to actually type out your line of reasoning.  

    Offline Stubborn

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    Can a council ever be abrogated?
    « Reply #6 on: February 17, 2014, 03:29:44 PM »
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  • Speaking about Execrabilis (Emphasis in original)

    Quote from: Fr. Wathen

    1. The reader will have remarked the style of this pronouncement.
    Its writer is fully confident of his authority and obligation to
    speak as he does. He speaks imperiously and urgently, with the conviction
    that the salvation of souls is at risk. His tone would surely be
    judged "uncharitable" by the modern lovers of mankind.

    2. His Holiness, Pope Pius 11(1458-1464) speaks with justifiable
    indignation that anyone should contrive to skirt the established judgments
    and rulings of the Church. He exposes their dishonesty in
    pretending that their intention is merely to get a "sounder," clearer,
    more definite, more precise judgment on certain theological matters.
    Their true intention is to oppose the collectivity of the bishops against
    the Church, and, particularly, its definitive papal pronouncements,
    and, thereby, to overturn and contradict them.

    3. Let it be noted most carefully that His Holiness does not
    hesitate to impose his sanctions on his own successors on the throne
    of St. Peter. Those who maintain that "what one pope may legislate,
    any of his successors may overrule," are found here to be decidedly
    wrong. Thus, the Pope is saying that not only may no future general
    council overturn the solemn definitions of the Sacred Magisterium,
    but no pope may do it either.
    [...]

    Pope Pius II's Bull condemned as "execrable" the mere idea, put
    forth in writing, for example, that anyone should look to a future
    Council to amend the teachings and decisions of the Church, under
    the label of a "sounder judgment," which Holy Church has already
    solemnly and definitively promulgated; its emphasis is on the evil of
    contemplating, proposing, hoping for, or referring to the possibility
    of, a general council' s being used to override or alter the venerable
    determinations of the Church. It is obvious that the actual attempt to
    cause such a thing would, in the eyes of this papal prescription, be a
    thing all the more iniquitous. The Second Vatican Council was
    everything and exactly what the Bull condemns in the clearest and
    most apodictic terms.
    Therefore, there is no reason that we should
    not consider that its decrees, whatever their meaning and intention, to
    be totally condemned and invalidated by its terms. There is no doubt
    that the Liberals, Progressivists Modernists, Marxists, and Masons
    among the hierarchy, with the collaboration of Popes John and Paul,
    attempted to use, and did use, the Council to bring about a Revolution
    in the Church. On the plea of "updating" and "adapting" and conforming
    the Church to modern times and conditions, they attacked every
    aspect of the Church's nature and teaching, and sought effectually to
    declare them out-of-date and no longer of any importance or binding
    force.

    [....]

    The point of these paragraphs, however, is to express as strongly
    as possible the truth that the Council stands condemned. Its decrees,
    no matter how interpreted, have no binding force whatsoever. Like the
    anti-Church to which it gave birth, the Council must be recognized as
    the work of criminal conspiracy, to which no Catholic need give the
    least obedience or reverence.

    There is the additional note that since the papal Bull here quoted
    censures most sternly anyone who would even advocate a council as a
    maneuver around the verdicts of the Sacred Magisterium, all the more
    so does it execrate those who would actually cooperate in such a
    wicked endeavor. We are permitted to conclude that the censures
    decreed herein truly did fall upon the heads of all those who
    participated. But this does not mean that the consequences were that
    the Pope and Bishops involved thereby were expelled from the
    Church, as Ventas and some others have contended. This is an
    erroneous reading of the law, as we shall see in due course.


     

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline icterus

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    Can a council ever be abrogated?
    « Reply #7 on: February 17, 2014, 03:41:34 PM »
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  • Quote
    The Second Vatican Council was
    everything and exactly what the Bull condemns in the clearest and
    most apodictic terms.


    I'm looking forward to a simple explanation of this in small words I can understand.  I firmly believe something will have to b done about VII before an actual restoration can occur, so I'm interested in any ideas on how it could happen.  I've never investigated this one.  I'm all ears.


    Offline songbird

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    Can a council ever be abrogated?
    « Reply #8 on: February 17, 2014, 04:17:53 PM »
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  • Restoration:  Chapter 12 of Daniel, which is referred to by Christ himself in Matthew 24.  Christ's says to His apostles go to the prophet Daniel when the Abomination Desolation occurs.  Chapter 12 of Daniel interpreted by Holy Mother Church says that the sacrifice of the Mass will come to an end and what to expect.  It will take the hand of God to restore!  To make things New again!

    Offline icterus

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    Can a council ever be abrogated?
    « Reply #9 on: February 17, 2014, 04:20:49 PM »
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  • songbird wrote:

    Quote
    Restoration: Chapter 12 of Daniel, which is referred to by Christ himself in Matthew 24. Christ's says to His apostles go to the prophet Daniel when the Abomination Desolation occurs. Chapter 12 of Daniel interpreted by Holy Mother Church says that the sacrifice of the Mass will come to an end and what to expect. It will take the hand of God to restore! To make things New again!


    Yay!  This means absolutely nothing to this thread!  Yay!  

    Offline soulguard

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    Can a council ever be abrogated?
    « Reply #10 on: February 17, 2014, 04:26:54 PM »
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  • Quote from: icterus
    songbird wrote:

    Quote
    Restoration: Chapter 12 of Daniel, which is referred to by Christ himself in Matthew 24. Christ's says to His apostles go to the prophet Daniel when the Abomination Desolation occurs. Chapter 12 of Daniel interpreted by Holy Mother Church says that the sacrifice of the Mass will come to an end and what to expect. It will take the hand of God to restore! To make things New again!


    Yay!  This means absolutely nothing to this thread!  Yay!  


    Not to you it doesn't, but I see the relevance of it. Your arrogance however I do not see the relevance of.


    Offline songbird

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    Can a council ever be abrogated?
    « Reply #11 on: February 17, 2014, 04:27:26 PM »
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  • Restoration?  Do you think Man is going to do it?

    Offline soulguard

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    « Reply #12 on: February 17, 2014, 04:41:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: songbird
    Restoration?  Do you think Man is going to do it?


    It will happen with God using good men and women to restore the church.
    The church is in its hour of need, and she summons her children to her defense.
    The call for saints have gone out, let that cry come unto thee.
    Hear thou thy people in their humiliations, and do thou fly to their defense.
    Pray for the conversion of all whom you teach.
    Teach for the conversion of all who can hear.
    Hear the words of traditionalists for the conversion of thy self.
    Practice the life of a Catholic saint that they may see the merits of believing in God.

    Offline icterus

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    Can a council ever be abrogated?
    « Reply #13 on: February 17, 2014, 04:54:03 PM »
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  • Quote
    Restoration? Do you think Man is going to do it?


    Way to make nonsensical comments.  Of course Man is going to do it.  Man following God with the help of God's grace is how the Church is always restored.  A little Catholic history can be a real serious help.  

    Offline icterus

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    Can a council ever be abrogated?
    « Reply #14 on: February 17, 2014, 04:55:03 PM »
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  • Quote
    Hear the words of traditionalists for the conversion of thy self.


    Verily, especially when they dost callest thou an arsehole, as Soulguard doth do to others, in all charity.