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Author Topic: Universal Traditional Catholic Principles, the FSSP, and Sedevacantism  (Read 4657 times)

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Missed the earlier responses.

Quote from: Mr. G
No it is not a "correction of injustice" unless the Pope were to admit that the SSPX always had regular jurisdiction since its founding, but was invalidly removed back in the 1970's.
Hi, Mr. G. Thanks for your perspective. The issue here is that there is a difference between what the SSPX asks, and what Rome admits. Bishops who lived in Communist countries or in China today will have experience on negotiating with them, and know the difficulties it involves. It's not an easy task by any means, as I hope you will agree, Mr. G. His Excellency Bishop Fellay had asked 3 things from Rome. Some were granted partially. The SSPX will ask for more, as even some Cardinals and Bishops have recommended doing, if and when doctrinal discussions with Rome begin.

As Roman Catholics, we must not forget, that, in spite of everything, Rome is still our Mother Church. The Church built on St. Peter. The Church that inherits the divine Promise. The gates of hell will not prevail against Her, but we must also do our part.

Let me refer to a good Traditional Priest outside the SSPX, in the year 1967, "Your Holiness! If we do not receive a satisfactory answer from Your Holiness or at least are given an opportunity to discuss our requests and proposals with Your Holiness personally-within the next month, we shall consider our requests denied and our proposals rejected, and draw the sad and tragic conclusion that Our Mother the Church has temporarily abandoned the best ones of her children. I pray to God and to His blessed Mother whose Assumption we commemorate today -- and millions all over the world are joining me in this prayer -- that such a dark and tragic day will never come. But, if we have no other choice, we will jealously protect the small but still burning candle of our traditional Catholic Faith, and patiently carry on our spiritual "Resistance" movement without the hoped-for papal approval."http://www.latinmass-ctm.org/pub/archive.htm This was Fr. Gommar De Pauw. Do you agree with Father, Mr. G?

Quote from: Ladislaus
personal opinion about issues that are debated among Traditional Catholics
Ok, Ladislaus, so you think this is a matter of opinion that can be debated. Then would you agree Bishop Fellay and Fr. Pagliarani have expressed legitimate Traditional Catholic opinions and acted accordingly? The Resistance claims otherwise. Here's the thing: After the abuses of authority in the 60s and 70s were corrected, and Rome admitted Bishops never had the right to forbid their Priests from offering the Tridentine Mass - and therefore the good Priests who continued to do that, without bitterness, without rebellion, but simply to serve Mother Church, were right to do so! - by Summorum Pontificuм in 2007, it was thereafter entirely unnecessary to be "suspended" in any way. "It is the present jurisprudence of the Church that, upon appeal, any suspension that an Ordinary attempts to inflict on a priest for celebrating the Old Mass against the will of the bishop is automatically nullified." https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=7729 Therefore, the situation dramatically changes after it.

Quote
Happy to see you acknowledging the neo-SSPX abandonment of the Archbishop ...

Hi X. Not sure if you misread my post, or I was unclear in something. My apologies if so. Bishop Fellay has clearly said H.E. conscientously believes that +ABL would have accepted what the Roman authorities have proposed, based on H.G's statements.

If you accept +ABL as an Authority, please explain to me why these Two Statements should not serve as a basis even now.

Archbishop Lefebvre in 1983: "I THINK THAT, like all traditionalist Catholics, you would like now to hear how things stand; at what point relations are between the Priestly Society of St. Pius X and the Vatican in Rome. So I shall give you a rapid summary.

Why do I maintain relations with Rome? Why do I keep going to Rome? Because I think that Rome is the center of Catholicism, because I think that there cannot be any Catholic Church without Rome. Consequently, if our purpose is to find a way of setting the Church straight again, it is by turning to Rome that maybe, with the grace of God, we may perhaps manage to set the situation straight. It is not one single bishop like myself who can set the whole situation straight in the Catholic Church. That is why I strive to keep on going to Rome and to plead the cause of Tradition." Full sermon here: http://sspxasia.com/Docuмents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Conference_at_Long_Island.htm

Archbishop Lefebvre in 1990: "Someone was saying to me yesterday, "But what if Rome accepted your bishops and then you were completely exempted from the other bishops' jurisdiction?" But firstly, they are a long way right now from accepting any such thing, and then, let them first make us such an offer! But I do not think they are anywhere near doing so. For what has been up till now the difficulty has been precisely their giving to us a Traditionalist bishop. They did not want to. It had to be a bishop according to the profile laid down by the Holy See. "Profile". You see what that means! Impossible. They knew very well that by giving us a traditional bishop they would be setting up a Traditionalist citadel able to continue. That they did not want." From: http://archives.sspx.org/archbishop_lefebvre/two_years_after_the_consecrations.htm

Missed the earlier responses.
Hi, Mr. G. Thanks for your perspective. The issue here is that there is a difference between what the SSPX asks, and what Rome admits. Bishops who lived in Communist countries or in China today will have experience on negotiating with them, and know the difficulties it involves. It's not an easy task by any means, as I hope you will agree, Mr. G. His Excellency Bishop Fellay had asked 3 things from Rome. Some were granted partially. The SSPX will ask for more, as even some Cardinals and Bishops have recommended doing, if and when doctrinal discussions with Rome begin.

As Roman Catholics, we must not forget, that, in spite of everything, Rome is still our Mother Church. The Church built on St. Peter. The Church that inherits the divine Promise. The gates of hell will not prevail against Her, but we must also do our part.

Let me refer to a good Traditional Priest outside the SSPX, in the year 1967, "Your Holiness! If we do not receive a satisfactory answer from Your Holiness or at least are given an opportunity to discuss our requests and proposals with Your Holiness personally-within the next month, we shall consider our requests denied and our proposals rejected, and draw the sad and tragic conclusion that Our Mother the Church has temporarily abandoned the best ones of her children. I pray to God and to His blessed Mother whose Assumption we commemorate today -- and millions all over the world are joining me in this prayer -- that such a dark and tragic day will never come. But, if we have no other choice, we will jealously protect the small but still burning candle of our traditional Catholic Faith, and patiently carry on our spiritual "Resistance" movement without the hoped-for papal approval."http://www.latinmass-ctm.org/pub/archive.htm This was Fr. Gommar De Pauw. Do you agree with Father, Mr. G? 
Yes I agree it is not an easy task negotiating with communist but the issue was not about negotiating, it was claiming a "correction of injustice", which is not true. 
As for Fr. De Pauw statement, I do not know about the "proposals" he is referring to so I cannot answer at this time, plus his issue was not the topic of the "correction of injustice". I wil read the letter later.


Many, yes. Not all. His Excellency Bishop Athanasius Schneider is one
One Bishop" does not make a Church. Schneider is a new ordination rite priest ordained and consecrated by new formula bishops, he may just be a laymen like you.
You are a brainwashed young man living in a dream world (or maybe you seek to make a living from the conciliar church and have to defend it to stay in business).

Ok, Mr. G, forget Fr. Gommar for a minute, then. Here is just a sample of very many letters Archbishop Lefebvre sent the Pope asking for a solution, which H.G. says is the 7th letter, "May God come to your aid to restore to the Church the position and the rights which are Her due, for the glory of God and the salvation of souls. Please allow me to tell Your Holiness of the grief suffered by those thousands of priests and millions of the faithful who are desirous of preserving intact their Catholic Faith and of receiving the graces that they need so as to remain members of the Mystical Body of Our Lord, and who because of their fidelity are persecuted and despised by those who ought to encourage and comfort them. In the hope that at least the universal Father of the faithful will recognize their fidelity and their devotion to the Apostolic See, they await impatiently the result of proceedings undertaken with Your Holiness by the Society of St. Pius X.

Yet this is the seventh letter in two years which I send to Your Holiness; many a times, at your request, I have gone to talk to Cardinal Seper and Cardinal Palazzini. No reply, no solution has come to light so far."https://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Apologia/Vol_three/Chapter_39.htm The Bishops of the SSPX have the right to do what their Saintly Founder did; to ask for the complete remedy of the injustices, but also be willing to accept temporarily, something less than ideal.

I quote Bishop Fellay's words for you referring to Archbishop Lefebvre's precedent, "when we compare the arguments given by Archbishop Lefebvre at that time we draw the conclusion that he would not have hesitated to accept what is being proposed to us. Let us not loose that sense of the Church, which was so strong in our venerated founder ... to refuse to work in the vineyard because there are still many weeds that risk stifling and obstructing the vine runs up against a notable lesson from the Bible: it is Our Lord Himself Who gives us to understand with His parable of the chaff that there will always be in one form or another weeds to be pulled up and fought against in His Church ... Our venerable founder gave to the Society bishops a task and precise duties. He made clear that the principle of unity in our Society is the Superior General ... We are praying hard for each of you that we may find ourselves all together once again in this fight which is far from over, for the greater glory of God and for love of our dear Society.

May Our Risen Lord and Our Lady deign to protect and bless you,
+Bernard Fellay..."

Quote from: Last Tradhican
One Bishop does not make the Church.

First, declare your belief in Pope St. Pius X's Oath against Modernism, which teaches us, among other things, "I firmly hold, then, and shall hold to my dying breath the belief of the Fathers in the charism of truth, which certainly is, was, and always will be in the succession of the episcopacy from the apostles." Do you believe this and pledge to believe it to your dying breath, as the Pope commanded us? You give the appearance of believing differently - in a defectible church that lost apostolicity, where there are not at least a few good Catholic Bishops left, and that the Charism of the Truth of Faith has been lost forever. I don't believe you. I believe the Church.

Quote
Schneider is a new ordination rite priest ordained and consecrated by new formula bishops, he may just be a laymen like you.
The new rites for episcopal consecration and priestly ordination were quoted and the question discussed here, studying the deviation from the traditional rites. https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/question-about-new-rite-of-no/105/ Father Pierre Marie has explained it. Show us the research you have done if you want to bind the Bishops and Priests of the Society to a different conclusion. Btw, if a layman has personal doubts, he is entirely free to seek out Bishops and Priests Consecrated and Ordained in the traditional rite. But he is not free to presume to pass judgment on the new rite for others, which only our Bishops and Priests have the right to do, after investigating carefully all the specific details of the individual case. Fr. Marie also gave another reason the new rite can't be per se invalid, as you would know, if you had ready that study and conclusion which conclusively demonstrated the reality over a decade ago.

Quote
You are a brainwashed young man living in a dream world (or maybe you seek to make a living from the conciliar church and have to defend it to stay in business).
Thanks for your insults and taunts. May God bless you and yours, and I forgive your rash judgment. I have less than nothing to prove to you, but here are the facts. I had a successful career in the corporate world, and worked in a top company called BNY Mellon for a couple of years. But I will be leaving it behind to pursue a vocation in the SSPX because I believe that is what God has called me to do. The essence of consecrated and religious life is taught in the Gospel call, "Which when Jesus had heard, he said to him: Yet one thing is wanting to thee. Sell all whatever thou hast and give to the poor: and thou shalt have treasure in heaven. And come, follow me" (Luk 18:22). Rather than hurl abuses at others, strive to attain the perfection you are called to in your own state of life.