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Offline Matthew

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Californian Catholic group blesses the Koran
« on: September 16, 2010, 12:46:30 PM »
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  • Published Saturday, Sep. 11, 2010

    As 18 doves flew into the skies over the Cathedral of the Blessed Sacrament Saturday night, more than 100 diverse Sacramentans blessed copies of the Quran with roses of love.

    Again and again they uttered the refrain, "Let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me" at the entrance to the downtown church framed by white statues of Jesus, Mary and Joseph. A musician with a white guitar accompanied them.

    Representatives of Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, B'hai, Mormon, Sikh, Vedic Druid and Muslim beliefs read scriptures from the great religious texts - including six verses from the Quran calling for all faiths to live in harmony.

    Irfan Haq, speaking on behalf of Sacramento's Muslims, told the rose bearing crowd outside the cathedral, "On this day September 11 - this day of infamy and darkness - what we are witnessing is a new beginning for Sacramento, for America - this is the America the world needs to see."

    Instead of the image of burning Qurans suggested by Florida Pastor Terry Jones, "Today we saw the great faiths of the world and they blessed to the Quran ... Indeed, blessed are the peacemakers," said Haq, who read a prayer from St. Francis of Assisi: "Oh God make me an instrument of your peace ... Where there is hatred let me sow love!"

    Michael Hunter, who with his wife Laura brought roses from Roseville to place roses on the Qurans, said this was a good way on the anniversary of 9-11 to promote "healing and peace among all religions."

    Father Anthony Garibaldi of St. Francis Church said the blessing of the Quran tonight "needs to be done - on a human level you don't desecrate other peoples' holy objects. I wouldn't want my Bible burned.

    Dr. Sajad Janmohamed, a Shiia Muslim scholar from Folsom, said Muslim here reacted with shock and disbelief at the idea of burning Qurans, but noted, "the Quran is not something that can be burned - like Jesus, it is a living thing in the lives of believers - it comforts them through moments of bereavement and hardship. If you destroy all the Qurans we know it by heart and we can chant it."

    Darshan Singh Mundy of the Sikh temple and a member of Sacramento's interfaith community, which organized the peace rally, said Saturday night's ecumenical blessing was "the right response."
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    Offline Telesphorus

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    Californian Catholic group blesses the Koran
    « Reply #1 on: September 16, 2010, 04:19:50 PM »
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  • Is this really material heresy and not apostasy?



    Offline MyrnaM

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    Californian Catholic group blesses the Koran
    « Reply #2 on: September 16, 2010, 04:38:09 PM »
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  • As they say, "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree"

    Offline Caraffa

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    Californian Catholic group blesses the Koran
    « Reply #3 on: September 16, 2010, 05:16:49 PM »
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  • So there are consistent Neo-Catholics.
    Pray for me, always.

    Offline JoanScholastica

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    Californian Catholic group blesses the Koran
    « Reply #4 on: September 16, 2010, 06:11:26 PM »
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  • Well, Pope JPII kissed the Koran, if I'm not mistaken... So, it's not really unusual to read this...


    Offline TKGS

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    Californian Catholic group blesses the Koran
    « Reply #5 on: September 17, 2010, 09:13:01 AM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    Is this really material heresy and not apostasy?



    No.  This is not heresy at all.  I see not denial of doctrine.  This is apostasy through and through.  This is blessing Satan himself as he speaks through the Koran.  They are placing false gods and false religions on par with the One True God and the One True Religion.

    What they did is evil.  They are notorious and public apostates.  They must be avoided by anyone who wishes to save his soul.

    Offline Matthew

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    Californian Catholic group blesses the Koran
    « Reply #6 on: September 17, 2010, 11:20:00 AM »
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  • This brings up a good point -- if one of these priests was saying Mass near me, I would be *obligated* to avoid such a heretic, even if no traditional Latin Mass were available.

    We often talk about the Novus Ordo as if every priest is merely offering up an average Novus Ordo Mass, and that loss of faith isn't a real concern. But I assure you, it IS a concern, in many cases. Some Catholics don't get to to choose between Novus Ordo and no Mass at all.

    If I had one of these priests living near me, and there were NO traditional options, I'd basically have to do the sedevacantist/home aloner thing. To receive the sacraments (marriage, confession, etc.), I'd have to travel far away to where there's a Catholic priest.

    Recall that I believe that in the Vatican II Catholic Church, there are levels of damage and levels of loss of faith all around. You have good priests, mediocre priests, all the way down to apostate priests who must be avoided as heretics. Same for bishops.

    Many bishops are just weak, and slaves to human respect and worried about their pension and health care. However, a few have completely lost the Faith. Episodes like this highlight the problem.

    The milieu is too dangerous for many to navigate, which is why the Traditional movement is the only way to go.

    Matthew
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    Offline Alexandria

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    Californian Catholic group blesses the Koran
    « Reply #7 on: September 17, 2010, 11:32:26 AM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    Quote from: Telesphorus
    Is this really material heresy and not apostasy?



    No.  This is not heresy at all.  I see not denial of doctrine.  This is apostasy through and through.  This is blessing Satan himself as he speaks through the Koran.  They are placing false gods and false religions on par with the One True God and the One True Religion.

    What they did is evil.  They are notorious and public apostates.  They must be avoided by anyone who wishes to save his soul.


    Wouldn't it be a sin against the First Commandment, and isn't that Divine Law?  


    Offline Alexandria

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    Californian Catholic group blesses the Koran
    « Reply #8 on: September 17, 2010, 11:33:24 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    This brings up a good point -- if one of these priests was saying Mass near me, I would be *obligated* to avoid such a heretic, even if no traditional Latin Mass were available.

    We often talk about the Novus Ordo as if every priest is merely offering up an average Novus Ordo Mass, and that loss of faith isn't a real concern. But I assure you, it IS a concern, in many cases. Some Catholics don't get to to choose between Novus Ordo and no Mass at all.

    If I had one of these priests living near me, and there were NO traditional options, I'd basically have to do the sedevacantist/home aloner thing. To receive the sacraments (marriage, confession, etc.), I'd have to travel far away to where there's a Catholic priest.

    Recall that I believe that in the Vatican II Catholic Church, there are levels of damage and levels of loss of faith all around. You have good priests, mediocre priests, all the way down to apostate priests who must be avoided as heretics. Same for bishops.

    Many bishops are just weak, and slaves to human respect and worried about their pension and health care. However, a few have completely lost the Faith. Episodes like this highlight the problem.

    The milieu is too dangerous for many to navigate, which is why the Traditional movement is the only way to go.

    Matthew


    When you have had the misfortune to darken the path of a novus Church, do you sense an emptiness and/or a void there?

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Californian Catholic group blesses the Koran
    « Reply #9 on: September 17, 2010, 09:45:06 PM »
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  • Reminds me of Neo-Cath apologist Dave Armstrong defending JPII's kissing of the Koran.

    Ahhhh. The Neo-Caths...

    Quote
    But step back for a moment and consider this argument. Why was it so supposedly scandalous that he did this? Why would anti-Catholic types of Protestants think that it was such a terrible thing or conclude that the pope was the antichrist because of it?

    Well, it's because they assume that by doing it he was giving carte blanche approval to Islam. But this is exactly what is ridiculous to conclude, because clearly he does not or did not agree with everything in Islam. Nor did he think all religions are equal. It was a conciliatory, ecumenical gesture, meaning, "I respect all that is true in Islam, and it does contain much truth." One has to take a sensible view of the event in light of what the Church teaches and what John Paul II believed.

    To not do that would possibly lead to someone thinking it was an atrocious and "imprudent" thing to do. Well, sure, if someone is of such a limited scope of vision, there isn't much that can be done. Catholics are falsely accused of all kinds of things. What are we supposed to do? Venerating a saint through a statue is considered idolatry, as is the Eucharist itself (the Lutherans call the Mass "Baal-worship" in their confessions!). The Mass has been compared to Golden Calf worship. If we modified everything because the ignorant and misled don't or won't understand it, we'd have little of true theology left.

    So this argument amounts to a distinction without a difference:
    1) Why was it bad for Pope John Paul II to kiss the Koran?

    2) The objection isn't that he was "a secret Muslim, or even that he apostasized or intended to."

    3) The essence of the objection is, rather, that it was imprudent and gave scandal.

    4) But why would it be considered imprudent and give scandal?

    5) Well, because folks might think he was accepting all of Islam, including those elements where Catholics clearly disagree with Islam (e.g., the Trinity and Incarnation and Redemption), or some part of it, and then he would be like the antichrist, etc. But we can accept true parts of overall false belief-systems.

    6) But these things (Trinity, etc.) are clearly the things that any sensible, reasonably informed person would know that John Paul II and the Church would not ever deny.

    7) Therefore the act must not have meant that, and must have meant something else.

    8) And reasonably informed people could figure that out without being scandalized and horrified, in ignorant, idle speculation.

    9) But nevertheless many people, including gazillions of so-called "traditionalists" were and are immensely scandalized (for no good reason).

    10) Why? Again, it must be because they accept fallacies such as the examples noted in #5, to some degree.

    11) But #5 is exactly what was denounced as not the reason for the objection, in #2.

    12) This is self-contradictory.

    13) Therefore, the entire objection to the act must be discarded as incoherent. One must correctly understand the intent of the act, within the existing backdrop of Catholic belief. If that is done, the objection from "imprudence" vanishes into thin air. There will always be people who misunderstand somewhat complex issues and acts. We cannot dumb down everything we do because of that.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Californian Catholic group blesses the Koran
    « Reply #10 on: September 17, 2010, 10:26:25 PM »
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  • Quote
    Venerating a saint through a statue is considered idolatry, as is the Eucharist itself


    So kissing a Koran is supposed to be in the same category?

    Quote
    But these things (Trinity, etc.) are clearly the things that any sensible, reasonably informed person would know that John Paul II and the Church would not ever deny.


    A circular argument.  Is it really someone who really believed in the Trinity and the Incarnation would kiss a book that denies the Trinity and the Incarnation?    A book that leads over a billion people to deny the Gospels?


    Offline Sigismund

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    Californian Catholic group blesses the Koran
    « Reply #11 on: September 18, 2010, 11:40:49 AM »
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  • This is really disturbing.  There are all kinds of good reasons for thinking the would be Koran-burner n Florida was a self-prompting idiot without engaging in idolatry, and silly idolatry to boot.

    I am also amused by the notion that Vedic Druidism is one of the world's great faiths.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Californian Catholic group blesses the Koran
    « Reply #12 on: September 18, 2010, 02:45:30 PM »
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  • Quote from: Sigismund
    This is really disturbing.  There are all kinds of good reasons for thinking the would be Koran-burner n Florida was a self-prompting idiot without engaging in idolatry, and silly idolatry to boot.

    I am also amused by the notion that Vedic Druidism is one of the world's great faiths.


    We can say with certainty, that acts of false ecumenism such as this would not have happened before Vatican II with approval from priests bishops and the hierarchy.

    It's religious indifferentism and apostasy.  

    Offline Alexandria

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    Californian Catholic group blesses the Koran
    « Reply #13 on: September 20, 2010, 02:04:13 PM »
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  • What I have found even  more disturbing are the absolutely lame reactions to this on the internet.  

    Hard to fathom there was a time in our beloved Church when Catholics would have been horrified by this.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Californian Catholic group blesses the Koran
    « Reply #14 on: September 23, 2010, 06:03:52 PM »
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  • http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2010/09/on-reported-blessing-of-quran-rector-of.html

    On the reported blessing of the Quran: The rector of the Cathedral of the Blessed Sacrament speaks

    A few days ago, Rorate picked up a story that had been making the rounds of some Catholic and secular (and at least one Muslim) websites: the report that a ceremony had been organized in front of the very doors of the Cathedral of the Diocese of Sacramento, where flowers were offered to the Quran and which reportedly involved no less than the rector of the Cathedral, Fr. Michael Kiernan, thus giving the impression that the alleged ceremony had the sanction of the cathedral authorities.

    Rorate, however, has received -- via a reader -- the following letter from Fr. Kiernan himself to clarify the story:


    ...I am always sorry when people are disturbed by actions of the church. There are a number of things it might be helpful to clarify in this situation. While I was not part of the planning and did not participate in the event, I’m happy to share with you some information.

    First of all, the “Qu’ran blessed at California cathedral” was misconstrued and of course the event was not in the Cathedral building but merely on the steps allowing visibility from the square.

    The term "blessed" has distinct meaning in our Catholic faith. There was no such action in that event. Unfortunately, the term which was used by a Presbyterian Minister and adopted by the media could be misunderstood. During the event some people went forward to place a rose on a table holding a copy of the Qu’ran which perhaps could mistakenly be seen by the unknowing as a "blessing." Also, it was stated that “During the ceremony, Father Michael Kiernan, rector of the cathedral, read from the Beatitudes.” I did not read anything and did not even participate in the event. The facts are as follows:

    The Interfaith Service Bureau (ISB) of Sacramento made up of many denominations planned an event for the public square not owned by the Cathedral of the Blessed Sacrament. The previous Sunday, a wonderful presentation of the commemorative stamp of Blessed Teresa was held with our Bishop present in the same space. The ISB asked if they could use the Cathedral steps to allow people to see what would be going on in the square. Everything was outside the Cathedral on the steps and no one entered the sacred space. This was all the participation by the Catholic Church, except for a Franciscan priest from another parish, who read a short scripture passage. The event was brief, led by Dr. David Thompson, a Presbyterian Minister, who is President of the Interfaith Service Bureau. There was no opening prayer (hence no combined prayer) and there were no speeches of any kind. A few passages from the Qu’ran were read by various faith representatives. It lasted about 20 minutes after which those gathered sang a hymn "Let There Be Peace on Earth."

    The purpose of the event was as follows:

    · In anticipation of the burning of the Qu’ran, this interfaith gathering was intended as a statement by religious leaders that religious intolerance has no place in Sacramento and that the pain of 9/11 is felt by Americans of all faiths and nationalities, Christians, Jews, Muslims , Hindus, Sikhs and people of goodwill in all religions.


    · As both President Bush and President Obama have reminded us, the United States is not at war with Islam but with Islamic Fundamentalists who have taken an even higher toll on their own people in places like Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. That is a fundamentally different thing.


    · One doesn’t have to be a Muslim to feel the hatred and disrespect shown by burning a Qur’an. Of course, some Christians do not enjoy the same freedom to practice their religion in Islamic countries but that is beside the point. The United States is called to be different. Millions of people have come to this country to find religious freedom. Our Muslim neighbors are no different. Freedom and tolerance are cherished American values. When anyone here is under attack, we need to hold them closer than ever.


    · The interfaith meeting in the front of the Cathedral is not an “endorsement” of Islam but an expression of care and concern for our Muslim neighbors here in Sacramento as we would care for any other religious group with respect and sensitivity.


    I hope this clarifies matters for you. Most of the information came from the secular press and was unfortunately presented by some sort of Catholic publications which should know better. It is sad that some in our church run with half-baked reports and assume the worst. Our dear Bishop Soto, the Diocese of Sacramento (and if I may humbly add, the Rector of the Cathedral) work hard do things correctly in every way as much as possible.

    Finally, you know well how at the Cathedral we celebrate with reverence and respect in accordance with the Church teachings which guide us in all things at the Cathedral. Let us pray for each other, our holy Church and all whom God has created. God bless you in Jesus, our Savior and Lord, the Holy Spirit who dwells within us, and the Blessed Virgin Mary, our Mother.

    Rev. Michael F. Kiernan
    Cathedral Rector



     

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