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Author Topic: CAF Defends Girl Altar Boys  (Read 4458 times)

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Offline stevusmagnus

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CAF Defends Girl Altar Boys
« on: September 12, 2011, 03:18:48 PM »
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  • CAF "Expert" explains away Benedict XIV's admonition echoing a previous Pope's admonition. It's all relative, don't you know?

    http://www.devthrone.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/altar%20server

    Quote
    Q:“ I saw a quote from Pope Benedict XIV condemning women serving at the altar as an "evil practice" and citing Pope Gelasius and Pope Innocent IV in support of this (cf. Benedict's encyclical Allatae Sunt). Should the modern Church really be allowing women to serve as altar servers and other liturgical roles when these past popes have condemned it?      

    ”A: There are two kinds of evil acts: those that are intrinsically evil, meaning they are evil always and everywhere, and those that are extrinsically evil, meaning that they are evil under particular circuмstances, due to evil effects that would result under those circuмstances, but would not be evil under other circuмstances.

    For women serving at the altar to be to be intrinsically evil, it would effectively have to be a matter of divine institution, a point of faith handed down from the apostles. However, there is no reason to think that the gender of altar servers—or even the existence of altar servers—has been passed down from the apostles as a matter of faith. Therefore, it falls under the Church’s legislative power, meaning that the pope can establish or reconfigure the rules on it according to what he thinks is best suited to the present.

    Based on the citation in the encyclical you mention, it is quite possible to understand Pope Benedict to be describing the practice of women altar servers as "evil" in the extrinsic sense. At the time that Benedict wrote, the practice was regarded as evil either because of social considerations, or else simply because it was contrary to Church law, or a combination of the two. But none of the popes suggests that this is a matter of divinely instituted practice. In fact, Benedict says that he "forbids" the practice, apparently implying that it falls within the Church’s legislative power.

    In the judgment of the present pontiff, this practice is not only not intrinsically evil, but in our day is no longer necessarily extrinsically evil either. Because he has lifted the Church’s ban on the practice, it is no longer extrinsically evil for juridical reasons, and in his judgment whatever social factors would have made it extrinsically evil in previous centuries no longer apply today.

    Catholics are not bound in conscience to agree with the wisdom of the legislative changes a pope makes (though they are required to obey them), so one is free to think that perhaps it would be better if today we did not have female altar servers. That doesn’t affect the pope’s authority to extend permission for this practice.


    Offline stevusmagnus

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    CAF Defends Girl Altar Boys
    « Reply #1 on: September 12, 2011, 03:25:34 PM »
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  • Quote
    Both of my daughters are altar servers, as am I. I am proud of them.

    I have a picture of my older daughter (14) from the front page of our diocesean newspaper serving at a Mass with 1100 people present and eleven priests. She was one of only two servers that day and the priests were all coming up to both girls telling them what a wonderful job they did. Not a single boy volunteered.

    Every time I see my youngest daughter (10) serve, with either boys or girls of any age, she is kneeling upright, hands in the correct position, paying attention in case the priest needs something, bowing her head at the name of Jesus, uniting herself to the priest by crossing herself when he crosses himself and sitting and standing when he sits and stand while the rest of the kids look around and pick their noses.

    It's nonsense that boys shy away from serving when girls a present. Boys are shying away because their mother's are bringing them to Mass without their fathers, who are off in the woods during hunting season or too busy riding their new mountain bike to bother being spiritual fathers to their children. My daughter's serve because their father serves and that speaks to the point made by SVP and Contra Mundum. Arimathean Ministries are a great way to serve the parish and set a wonderful example.

    I'm super proud of my two altar servers. It is my hope one day that the three of us can serve at a Mass as a family. How cool would that be?


    -Tim-


    Offline stevusmagnus

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    CAF Defends Girl Altar Boys
    « Reply #2 on: September 12, 2011, 03:27:46 PM »
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    God picked a woman to do the most magnificent work that any human being has ever done - bring God himself into creation as man.

    Mary is the mother of Jesus and as the Eucharist is Jesus, Mary serves at the altar at every Mass, making Jesus Christ - grace himself - sacramentally present in time and space.

    Whether you like it or not, you are never going to remove that one female altar server. You can put all the boys in the world up there at the altar and make every woman go 1000 miles away, and Mary is there, making Christ present, as she has always done and as she always will do.

    There may be valid liturgical, theological and disciplinary reason to not want female altar servers, but a female is there and there isn't a thing anyone can do about it.


    -Tim-

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    CAF Defends Girl Altar Boys
    « Reply #3 on: September 12, 2011, 03:29:19 PM »
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  • I love the implication that anything not said ex cathedra by a Pope is not infallible. The Neo-Caths love to selectively use the infallibility card.

    Quote
    Quote
    Originally Posted by stevusmagnus  
    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Ben14/b14allat.htm

    Pope Benedict XIV: Allatae Sunt, 1755

    "Women Assisting at Mass Pope Gelasius in his ninth letter (chap. 26) to the bishops of Lucania condemned the evil practice which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks, Innocent IV strictly forbade it in his letter to the bishop of Tusculum: "Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry." We too have forbidden this practice in the same words in Our oft-repeated constitution Etsi Pastoralis, sect. 6, no. 21."


    That's not an infallible statement, and was in 1755. Girls *are* allowed to serve Mass now. So it's kinda pointless to point to something from that long ago and apply it today. A pope wrote an encyclical saying it was okay to burn Lutherans, but we wouldn't think of doing that today. A pope wrote a list of forbidden things, one of which is the separation of Church and State; another was religious freedom. We don't apply those teachings today.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    CAF Defends Girl Altar Boys
    « Reply #4 on: September 12, 2011, 03:32:55 PM »
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  • And there you have it! Banned for "agenda posting"!

    I quoted a Pope!! All I did was provide a link and a quote!! LOL!  :laugh1:

    Pope Benedict XIV: BANNED at CAF!!

    Quote
    Originally Posted by stevusmagnus  
    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Ben14/b14allat.htm

    Pope Benedict XIV: Allatae Sunt, 1755

    "Women Assisting at Mass Pope Gelasius in his ninth letter (chap. 26) to the bishops of Lucania condemned the evil practice which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks, Innocent IV strictly forbade it in his letter to the bishop of Tusculum: "Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry." We too have forbidden this practice in the same words in Our oft-repeated constitution Etsi Pastoralis, sect. 6, no. 21."



    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    CAF Defends Girl Altar Boys
    « Reply #5 on: September 12, 2011, 03:39:47 PM »
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  • Why am I not surprised...oh that's right, CAF is a joke. That "agenda posting" crap is just something they make up to have an excuse to ban you.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    CAF Defends Girl Altar Boys
    « Reply #6 on: September 12, 2011, 03:40:46 PM »
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  • My (no doubt futile) appeal....

    Quote
    Hi,
     
    I would like to appeal a permanent locking I received at Catholic Answers Forum a few minutes ago.
     
    I would like a moderator other than Mr. Casey to decide my appeal to avoid a conflict of interest.

    The post I was locked forever for was nothing more than a quotation of Pope Benedict XIV with a web link to the full encyclical. I didn't even write one word of commentary.

    It was called "agenda posting". I have no idea what "agenda posting" is. Every poster could be said to have an "agenda" based on their viewpoint and trying to support it.

    On a thread revolving around the practice of female altar servers, I think it was highly germaine to the discussion to present this quote from Pope Benedict XIV. Another poster posted and argued that it doesn't apply to our time. Ok, fair enough. That's the free exchange of ideas, discussion, dialogue at work!

    How can Catholic Answers Forums pride itself on being a place of Catholic discussion when one cannot even quote from an encyclical of a Pope??

    Please consider my appeal. I request the lock out be lifted at once as there was absolutely no legitimate reason for it.

    Thank you.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    CAF Defends Girl Altar Boys
    « Reply #7 on: September 12, 2011, 03:42:50 PM »
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  • The cowards won't even let me VIEW the CAF forum now. LOL! Seriously!

    All I see is this message:

    Quote
    Your account has been locked for the following reason:
    Agenda posting

    This change will be lifted: Never





    Offline stevusmagnus

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    CAF Defends Girl Altar Boys
    « Reply #8 on: September 12, 2011, 03:44:25 PM »
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  • BTW, this was the title of an actual thread on CAF...

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    Sex toys...yes or no?

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    CAF Defends Girl Altar Boys
    « Reply #9 on: September 12, 2011, 03:47:28 PM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    The cowards won't even let me VIEW the CAF forum now. LOL! Seriously!

    All I see is this message:

    Quote
    Your account has been locked for the following reason:
    Agenda posting

    This change will be lifted: Never





    That happened to me. I was told mine was locked for "refusal to follow moderator directions". Eventually the in-ability to view the forum wears off.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    CAF Defends Girl Altar Boys
    « Reply #10 on: September 12, 2011, 03:48:34 PM »
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  • What "directions" did you refuse to follow?

    Did they order you to renounce Tradition and pledge allegiance to the VCII sect?


    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    CAF Defends Girl Altar Boys
    « Reply #11 on: September 12, 2011, 03:56:05 PM »
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  • I was told to stop criticizing Vatican II. All I did was reply to Eric Hilbert's PM and ask why I was given an infraction. I said what I was doing was no different from what any other Traditionalist there was doing. Then he banned me. I think he just made something up to ban me, same thing with you.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline Daegus

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    CAF Defends Girl Altar Boys
    « Reply #12 on: September 12, 2011, 06:48:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    Quote from: stevusmagnus
    The cowards won't even let me VIEW the CAF forum now. LOL! Seriously!

    All I see is this message:

    Quote
    Your account has been locked for the following reason:
    Agenda posting

    This change will be lifted: Never





    That happened to me. I was told mine was locked for "refusal to follow moderator directions". Eventually the in-ability to view the forum wears off.


    All you have to do is reset your cookies and don't try to log in on any account you're banned on and you'll be able to see the forum.
    For those who I have unjustly offended, please forgive me. Please disregard my posts where I lacked charity and you will see that I am actually a very nice person. Disregard my opinions on "NFP", "Baptism of Desire/Blood" and the changes made to the sacra

    Offline Charles

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    CAF Defends Girl Altar Boys
    « Reply #13 on: September 13, 2011, 01:34:58 AM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    And there you have it! Banned for "agenda posting"!

    I quoted a Pope!! All I did was provide a link and a quote!! LOL!  :laugh1:

    Pope Benedict XIV: BANNED at CAF!!

    Quote
    Originally Posted by stevusmagnus  
    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Ben14/b14allat.htm

    Pope Benedict XIV: Allatae Sunt, 1755

    "Women Assisting at Mass Pope Gelasius in his ninth letter (chap. 26) to the bishops of Lucania condemned the evil practice which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks, Innocent IV strictly forbade it in his letter to the bishop of Tusculum: "Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry." We too have forbidden this practice in the same words in Our oft-repeated constitution Etsi Pastoralis, sect. 6, no. 21."



    I'm sure one of their cronies is watching this thread. Since you use the same id, they just made up a reason to ban you.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    CAF Defends Girl Altar Boys
    « Reply #14 on: September 13, 2011, 12:28:50 PM »
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  • I want to get a discussion going about the CAF "Expert's" curt dismissal of the words of Benedict XIV who was echoing his predecessors on girl altar boys.

    Quote
    Q:“ I saw a quote from Pope Benedict XIV condemning women serving at the altar as an "evil practice" and citing Pope Gelasius and Pope Innocent IV in support of this (cf. Benedict's encyclical Allatae Sunt). Should the modern Church really be allowing women to serve as altar servers and other liturgical roles when these past popes have condemned it?      

    ”A: There are two kinds of evil acts: those that are intrinsically evil, meaning they are evil always and everywhere, and those that are extrinsically evil, meaning that they are evil under particular circuмstances, due to evil effects that would result under those circuмstances, but would not be evil under other circuмstances.

    For women serving at the altar to be to be intrinsically evil, it would effectively have to be a matter of divine institution, a point of faith handed down from the apostles. However, there is no reason to think that the gender of altar servers—or even the existence of altar servers—has been passed down from the apostles as a matter of faith.


    Was abortion being a mortal sin passed down from the apostles as a matter of faith? Something doesn't have to be "a matter of faith" to be intrinsically evil does it? The rule against abortion has nothing to do with "faith", yet it was an authoritative moral rule passed down from the apostles that does not change.

    Quote
    Therefore, it falls under the Church’s legislative power, meaning that the pope can establish or reconfigure the rules on it according to what he thinks is best suited to the present.


    "The Church" has no power to create rules deleterious to the Faith.

    Quote
    Based on the citation in the encyclical you mention, it is quite possible to understand Pope Benedict to be describing the practice of women altar servers as "evil" in the extrinsic sense. At the time that Benedict wrote, the practice was regarded as evil either because of social considerations, or else simply because it was contrary to Church law, or a combination of the two. But none of the popes suggests that this is a matter of divinely instituted practice. In fact, Benedict says that he "forbids" the practice, apparently implying that it falls within the Church’s legislative power.


    This is crazy! The Pope also "forbids" women to be ordained. Does this mean that it is within the Church's legislative power to ordain women if She so desires?

    It was regarded as evil due to "social considerations"? What social considerations? Did any of the Popes mention social considerations as the primary reason why the practice of girl altar boys was evil?

    Just because something is "contrary to Church law" doesn't mean it is "evil". He implies that it was evil THEN simply because Church law forbade it, as if the act of girl altar boys itself is completely morally neutral. If all the Pope meant by saying the practice was "evil" is that the practice was forbidden, he'd be stating a redundancy. Obviously he was forbidding the practice because it was evil, he says so! He wasn't calling the practice evil BECAUSE it was forbidden!

    Quote
    In the judgment of the present pontiff, this practice is not only not intrinsically evil, but in our day is no longer necessarily extrinsically evil either. Because he has lifted the Church’s ban on the practice, it is no longer extrinsically evil for juridical reasons, and in his judgment whatever social factors would have made it extrinsically evil in previous centuries no longer apply today.


    The "present Pontiff" cannot turn evil into good by lifting the Church's legislative prohibition of it.

    And I wonder what has changed since the time of Benedict XIV that has made prohibtion of the practice justified then, but not today? So is he saying the denial of girl altar boys on the basis of mere social factors was justified in the past? Is the standard of Church law now social factors? This is absurd!

    Quote
    Catholics are not bound in conscience to agree with the wisdom of the legislative changes a pope makes (though they are required to obey them),


    False. Unjust laws are no laws at all and one is bound, in conscience, to follow the perennial Magisterium and Tradition of the Church and refuse to accept or participate in Masses where evil practices are approved of.

    Quote
    so one is free to think that perhaps it would be better if today we did not have female altar servers. That doesn’t affect the pope’s authority to extend permission for this practice.


    So it all comes down to simple personal preference. The rules prohibiting girl altar boys were purely arbitrary for 1990 years until JPII decided to change it? Smoehow I seriously doubt the 2 Pontiffs who preached the practice was evil would agree that it was arbitrarily evil.