Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: BVM Co-Redemtrix, Co-Mediatrix  (Read 161933 times)

0 Members and 358 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline AnthonyPadua

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2658
  • Reputation: +1348/-295
  • Gender: Male
Re: BVM Co-Redemtrix, Co-Mediatrix
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2025, 04:44:35 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • While I see eye to eye with the Dimond Brothers probabably 90% of the time, I must disagree with their conclusion on this matter.  But then I disagree with the opposite side also.

    Unfortunately, they make the same mistake regarding the Council of Trent that the Prots do with the Bible, not making necessary distinctions ... when the Prots say stuff like, "Well, the Baable says all have sinned except Jesus." (against Immaculate Conception) or "Call no man 'Father'" (against priests being called Father).

    Yes, Trent teaches there is one Redeemer, but Catholic scholastic theology recognizes different causes and differeent agents of cause, some primary, some secondary.

    Yes, Our Lord is in fact the Redeemer Alone, in terms of Formal, Final, Efficient causes of Redemption ... but this does not preclude God, by His Will. extending a cooperation in that act of Redemption to His creatures, by His will and His delegation, where they can in fact become Instrumental Causes.

    There's also a failure to consider what is meant by "Co-".  Co- derives from the Latin word for "with", so it just means accompanyment, and does not imply equality or any kind of role similar to much less identical with His.

    God gives grace, and we COoperate with His grace.  Does that mean that we somehow actively confer grace, or are the the cause of grace?  Of course not.  But we must COoperate for that grace to be applied to our souls.  So it's a passive role.

    Now, Our Lady's role is more active, but it's still subordinate and instrumental.

    Let's say there's a monarch, a sole absolute ruler.  But he decides to delegate his rule to some co-regents, other people that in certain capacities or territories might as well be the monarch.  We saw that in the Roman empire where you had four "Caesars" but one Emperor in charge of them (of course that started to fragment there).  So if the monarch delegates to these co-regents, does it mean that he's no longer the SOLE monarch, and that now these monarchs are somehow co-monarchs?  In a sense, yes, but in another sense no ... since these subordinates can serve only at the monarch's pleasure, and he can revoke that delegation anytime he wants.  So that's where the distinctions come in.  In a sense yes, and in another sense no.  It's also how you refute the Prot crap about "all have sinned", etc. -- and I'm afraid it's also where the Dimond Brothers fell short here.

    Let's say I'm a rich guy in charge of a large estate with many people who live and work there.  I'm pretty busy, so I decided that I'm going to send someone out to go buy groceries for the household, plus I feel that these employees, servants, etc. should all contribute to their being fed.  So I decree that, well, if this person doesn't go out and buy groceries, you're going to go hungry.  Now this individual accepts.  So I, the rich guy, give money to this servant, and he goes to the store, does the shopping, and then exchanges the money for the merchandise, and brings it home.

    Before going farther, that's precisely what God did, where He required human cooperation by free will in their Redemption, as it was human will that resulted in the Fall, and thus Our Lady's "fiat" was required.  God COULD have just created a human nature for His Son out of thin air, or "from those stones", as Our Lord said ... but He planned, in His perfect plan, to require human cooperation, and in that sense co-redemption, just like the servant above.  Had Our Lady said "no", which, absit, God would not have unilaterally gone ahead with the Redemption (except possibly if He found someone else, etc.).  Of course, she was so perfect that she would never have said no to His Will, but just hypothetically.

    So, back to the metaphor.  This guy exchanged money for the groceries and came back with them.  Did he buy the groceries?  Well, yes he did, in one sense.  If you define buying as exchanging money for goods, then he actually made the transaction from the grocer, and as far as the grocer was concerned, that individual bought the groceries.  But he did so as an instrumental cause, since in reality, I, the rich guy, made it possible, provided the funds, gave him the mission / delegation, and then have lawful ownership of the groceries purchased.  So in one sense I the rich guy bought them.  In ANOTHER SENSE, my agent bought them.  Again ... distinctions, semantics, etc.

    In God's amazing economy of salvation, He has willed that even we can participate in the redemption of others, in the sense of having the fruits of His Redemption applied to them.  We have no merits of our own, but the merits of Our Lord living in our souls through the Sacrmaent of Baptism, we can kindof help "direct" some of God's merits.  Perhaps one metaphor might be that we're like fire hoses that have a certain amount of autonomy.  We are not the source of the water, but God allows us to help distribute it and direct it.  If I pray for this person here, and make sacrifices for him, I'm a firehose that turns that water on the person.  I could be a crummy firehose, with a narrow diameter, and only send a few drops, or, as some saints, they could drench the person, etc.  In any case, the water comes from God's hydrant.

    Yet, that speaks to a flaw that even many "conservatives" fall into, where, in doing apologetics against the Prot attacks, they fall into the trap of trying to say that Our Lady's role is identical in kind to ours, just in a greater degree, where her her role as Co-Redemptrix is just like ours, except that she exercises it to a remarkably greater degree, where it's just like ours, a difference of degree, not a difference of kind.  While they think they're appeasing the Prots, and maybe they do shut them up a bit, that's actually false.  Hers is a role different in kind also.  So, when the Prots attack us for "praying to Mary", the apologists try to say it's just like if I asked Nacy or Marge down the street to pray for me, just that Our Lady's prayers are more efficacious in proportion to her greater holiness.  False.

    Our Lady has a unique role, different in kind from what we're able to exercise, since her cooperation of will was a necessary cause of Redemption, by God's Will ... whereas ours is not.  Yet at the same time, her role is also different in kind from that of Our Lord, an overlap or blend of the two, and thus intercessory.  In our participation in the Redemption, we could say no, but the Redemption would have gone on without us or without being applied to us.  Not so with Our Lady.  She was a necessary cause of the Redemption, albeit and instrumental cause, as she herself had been redeemed.

    And this notion of there being different causes for the same action, or different degrees of participation in the outcome, so that the term "Co-" can be justified ... this is what is missed by the Dimond Brothers, where Our Lady's being a Co-Redemptrix (in one sense, as a certain type of cause) by no means contradicts the fact that Our Lord was the Sole Redeemer (in another sense, with different causes of the outcome).  There's no need for Our Lord being the Sole Redeemer to be a binary, false dichotomy.  It's just like the Monarch who select co-regents to help rule, by his own will ... without that changing the fact that he's the Sole Monarch.

    So ...

    1) I disagree with the Dimond Brothers, since Our Lady's role in the Redemption is different in Kind from that of Our Lord, and she was a differnt type of SUBORDINATE cause of the Redemption, and SUBORDINATE causes that themselves have been caused by the Primary Cause (as Our Lady herself had been Redeemed), they in no way derogate from the fact that Our Lord was the Sole Ultimate cause, with all secondary causes still deriving ultimately from Him.  They make the same mistake that Prots do here.  This chain of causality shows in St. Thomas' proof for the existence of God, where something that is a cause can itself be caused by something else, which is the Ultimate Cause.  Our Lady is a secondary caused cause of Our Redemption, she herself having been Redeemed by Our Lord, and her role in the Redemption is subordinate to that of Our Lord.

    2) I also disagree with those conservative apologists who try to reduce Our Lady’s role to being different in degree but not different in kind from our own.

    Finally, I disagree with this being a direct point of attack against the apostates in Rome.  If you read their docuмent, it just says that the title is not “helpful” because it requires too much misunderstanding, and can lead to confusion … the same type of confusion to which even the Dimond Brothers succuмbed, and that’s to say nothing of the average moronic Conciliar, 95% of whom could not pass a quiz on Baltimore Catechism No. 1.  Conciliar Catechesis has been so abysmal that I don’t think they’re wrong that 99% of the morons would not understand the term and then become even more easy pickings for the Prots, who will say, “See, we TOLD you all along that the Catholics worship Mary.  This proves it.”  Now, the Conciliars are in fact culpable for this, and so culpable for not being able to affirm Our Lady’s title for regular use, due to their negligence (likely on purpose) of catechesis, but what they said is in fact technically true.

    I used to go after the Conciliars about annulments, but then a wise Trad friend pointed out that the Conciliar marriage preparation is so horrifically woeful that the vast majority of them do go in thinking marriage is temporary and does not come with an obligation to be open to children (even if you end up not being able to for some unavoidable reason … e.g. health issues).

    I know there’s a lot of emotion vested since this involves Our Blessed Mother, but … the Conciliars have done far worse … and they are not without blame for this debacle also.  Unfortunately, there's also a fair amount of virtue signalling here, where people are vying to show themselves most devoted to Our Lady.  So, no ... if you were to declare Our Lady the 4th Person of the Holy Trinity, you would not be showing devotion, since devotion and love require truth.
    I think the Dimonds issue with the term stems from their translation of Co+Redemtrix being "Female redeemer with". I don't know Latin so I can't comment on the accuracy here.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47598
    • Reputation: +28158/-5276
    • Gender: Male
    Re: BVM Co-Redemtrix, Co-Mediatrix
    « Reply #16 on: November 13, 2025, 09:10:47 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I think the Dimonds issue with the term stems from their translation of Co+Redemtrix being "Female redeemer with". I don't know Latin so I can't comment on the accuracy here.

    So, the "-trix" at the end is little more than a gender suffix, just as we might say actor and actress ... really the same thing per se, or in essence, just one happens to be a male and the other happens to be a female, but the suffix does not change the root of the word.

    Certainly the "co-" can cause misunderstandings because in many English (and other modern languages) it can in fact connote a joint causality.  I am the co-author of a book.

    But in Latin, the "co-" or "con" can but usually does not have that sense.

    So let's look at the word Redeemer.  -er suffix refers to an actor or an agent, known in Aristotelian and scholastic terms as an efficient cause, a doer.  So a Redeemer is the cause of Redemption.

    But recall that in the same philosophical framework, causes can actually cause other things to cause.  In other words, there's often a causal chain, with a Primary Cause and then a Secondary Cause, etc.

    If I throw a baseball through a window, I was the sole cause, and am the responsible party.  You can't blame the ball, since I'm one that caused it to become a cause of the broken window.  I set the whole thing in motion, and the ball was itself a caused cause.  That's related to St. Thomas' one proof for the existence of God as the Uncaused Cause.  This secondary cause is also known as an instrumental cause, but St. Thomas et al. referred to secondary instrumental causes as "concausa" ... see that word "co-" and "con" again.

    So, while in Latin the instrument cause is a CON-cause, in every real sense of the word, I was the sole cause of the window being broken, since I caused this secondary cause to do it.

    See how in Latin, the co- or con can easily refer to a caused cause or secondary cause even if in English you often have this notion of equality.

    Let's say I am the author of a book.  I pick up a pen and write the book.  In English, it would be stupid to say that the pen was a co-author of the book.  Nobody would say that, but would agree that I wrote the book alone and had no co-author.  That refers to the individual who was the primary cause of all its contents.  But in Latin, you could actually say that the pen was a "concausa" of the book having been written.  In fact, it was a necessary cause, a sine qua non, since without it I could not have written the book ... and so it made a very significant contribution to the effort.

    Getting back to Redeemer, as the CAUSE of our Redemption (the agent or efficient cause).  If Redeemer is a cause, a primary efficient cause, then a Co-Redemptrix would be a "concausa".

    Redeemer = "causa efficiens Redemptionis"
    then the con-"causa efficiens Redemptinis" would translate to a Co-Redemptrix, even though she's a secondary efficient cause, an instrumental cause, and a caused cause of our Redemption, herself having already been Redeemed by Christ, which enabled her to become that instrumental cause.  It's Christ's Redemption of her that caused her to become an instrumental cause of our Redemption, just like I caused the baseball to smash the window, and being the Primary Cause and the Cause of all the Other Causes, I am the Sole Cause of ALL the effects that I caused, even if I happened to use an instrument to effect some of those Causes, by my choice.

    So God can made other causes required, not because they're absolutely required, but ex suppositione finis, determining that it should go that way by His Will.  God could have created a human nature for Christ from thin air or "from these stones", but He required that there be the cooperation (not co- again in a subordinate sense, our main English word with that connotation) from the free will of a human person, since the free will of a human person was involved in the Fall (note that Our Lord is a Divine Person).  So God ordained that Our Lady be a necessary cause, a sine qua non, of our Redemption, and also for a greater perfection of His plan, ad perfectius agens.

    So, St. Thomas and others all say that Adam was the principle cause of our Fall, but we all know that Eve contributed mightily to the situation and was a cause also, yet a secondary or instrumental cause, in this case instrumental for the devil, who then used her to cause the Fall of Adam.  So the devil plotted (final cause) to use Eve (instrumental cause) to have Adam bring down the human race (primary efficient cause).  God, then to reverse this planned (final cause) to use Our Lady (instrumental cause) to have Our Lord redeem the human race (primary efficient cause).

    Recall that the word "redemption" comes from the Latin "to buy back" or "ransom", connoting a "purchase".  So take the following situation.  I am a rich man, lord of a manor.  I tell one of the household that if he wants to go out to the store to buy gifts for everyone, I would give him the money and send him out.  But, because I insist on their cooperation, I'm not going to go out on my own.  If they're too lazy to help, then they don't deserve anything.  This member of the household agrees, so I give himthe money and send him on the mission.  He goes to the store and buys the stuff, and then he comes back.

    So, who "bought" the merchandise?  Well, in one sense I bought it, since I came up with the idea, formulated the plan, and provided the money.  Yet, in another sense, is it wrong to say that this guy went to the store and bought the merchandise?  No, since the definition of "bought" refers to exchanging the money for merchandise.  Of coures, it was the master's money, but nevertheless, he put the plan into action, acting as his agent, as an instrumental efficient cause.

    In Latin, then he was a "con-causa" of the purchase, and therefore a co-purchaser, even though I alone formally purchased it, and I'm the one that caused him to go purchase it.  So I caused all of the effects in the end, even if in some cases I caused another cause to cause some of the effects.

    But ... I do agree that in modern languages this term could cause confusion, especially those not particularly well versed in Aristotelian / scholastic philosophy, where they will cleary consider the term to refer to Our Lord and Our Lady being joint primary efficient causes, which is not correct.

    So that's why I barely disagree with the Modernists on this, and the Dimonds cited pre-V2 theologians who said the same thing, that in practice it might be best to avoid the term lest it lead to misunderstandings.

    Back to Our Lady.  Just as God made Eve for Adam as a COM-panion, so too in another sense Our Lady was Our Lord's closest COM-panion during His Redemption of mankind, so that's another way in which one might undrstand the term Co-Redemptrix, as she was His Companion in the Redemption, closely accompanying Him (sorry for the Novus Ordite term there).

    So the term absolutely can be legitimate, if properly defined and understood ... but it also cause problems, ESPECIALLY due to the abysmal catechesis of Novus Ordites, who would become even easier pickings for the Prots.  "See, we've been telling you all along that Catholics put Mary on the same level as Jesus."  Which Novus Ordite, 99% of whom couldn't pass a quiz based on Baltimore Catechism No. 1 is going to explain secondary efficient (or instrumental) causality.  "Sorry, Mr. Protestant, but that term simply means that she was the caused cause, a secondary efficient, aka instrumental cause, of our Redemption, and the primary cause causes the secondary cause to cause the effect, so is ultimately the cause of all the effects even if using various instrumental causes to bring them about.  In Latin, co- does not necessarily refer to equality or some share in the primary casuality."  90%+ of Novus Ordites still think the Immaculate Conception refers to the conception of Jesus.




    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47598
    • Reputation: +28158/-5276
    • Gender: Male
    Re: BVM Co-Redemtrix, Co-Mediatrix
    « Reply #17 on: November 13, 2025, 09:39:50 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • So, the Brothers themselves say that Mediatrix is OK because there's a hierarchical structure, where she mediates between us and Christ, and then Christ between her and God the Father.

    So, the causal chain is also hierarchical from top down, where Our Lord causes Our Lady to be a cause of Our Redemption.

    Mediatrix is a bottom->top hierarchy.

    Co-Redemptrix is a top->bottom hierarchy.

    Secondary causes are caused by the primary (higher-level causes), and in Latin can therefore be called con-causes "concausa" (Thomistic term), even if they're themselves caused.

    Offline Udkme

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 10
    • Reputation: +5/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Re: BVM Co-Redemtrix, Co-Mediatrix
    « Reply #18 on: November 14, 2025, 07:44:21 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I appreciate Lad as the most accomplished poster in the forum.  But all this discussion and layering of arguments is fatiguing my simpler mind.  It's a big idea at stake beyond the usual drama that's overtaken EVERYTHING everywhere.  Can't we just say "Mary is not really the CO-REDEMPTRIX in the normal understanding of salvation economy" (BUT, what follows and what was already stated deserves some subtle distinction/comprehension/insight/speculation/theology/'splainin', etc) ???  

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1450
    • Reputation: +1383/-144
    • Gender: Female
    Re: BVM Co-Redemtrix, Co-Mediatrix
    « Reply #19 on: Today at 05:26:12 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • In Ss. Peter & Paul Roman Catholic Mission Bulletin this week there is published a Vatican News article reporting on the docuмent that addresses the titles of the Blessed Virgin Mary. The commentary on the article offers an opinion why the Vatican wants to deny these titles that properly belong to the Mother of God.  I think the commentary is worth passing along. The Bulletin also relates this to the recent inter-faith Nostra Aetate anniversary celebration at the Vatican but I will not address that.

    Doctrinal Note on Marian titles: Mother of the faithful, not Co-redemptrix
    The docuмent of the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith, approved by Pope Leo XIV, offers clarifications on titles applied to the Blessed Virgin Mary, and calls for special attention to the use of the expression, “Mediatrix of all graces.”
    https://www.vaticannews.va/en/vatican-city/news/2025-11/doctrinal-note-mother-of-the-faithful-not-co-redemptrix.html



    COMMENT: Amazing to hear these apostates chirping about the lack of "precise meaning" of theological terms while obscurity in definition is, and has been since Vatican II, the calling card of the Novus Ordo theologian and prelates. They like to muddle what is clear. Let's start with the title, "Mother of Believers" and "Mother of the Faithful." These are, in fact, worthy titles of the Mother of God and frequently occur in St. Mary of Agreda's City of God, yet the Novus Ordo clerics would never be found offering a precise definition and meaning for the term "faithful" and then identify exactly who the "faithful" are.

    The term "faithful" has a precise Catholic definition. It refers to those who have been baptized into the Catholic Church and profess the one, holy, catholic and apostolic faith. By virtue of this incorporation by baptism they have become "children of God." They faithfully believe all the truths that God has revealed on the authority of God the Revealer. Only those who have become thus members of the Mystical Body of Christ share by participation in His divine nature and become brothers and sister of Jesus Christ and therefore, sons of His Mother. This definition excludes all heretics, schismatics, Jews, pagans, and any other form of idolaters. Novus Ordo clerics heretically teach that everyone is a child of God by virtue of the Incarnation. Everyone by nature is a creature of God created in His image and likeness with the spiritual soul with the powers of reason and free will, but every creature is born in original sin and cut off from the friendship of God. He is only a "child of God" in potentia. Without the sacrament of Baptism and the Catholic faith they can never become "children of God." This obscurity of definition as to who is a child of God and thus a child of the Blessed Virgin Mary ultimately obscures what is necessary as a necessity of means to obtain salvation.

    The title Mediatrix of all grace is long established and of sound and precise theological understanding. Those that pretend otherwise are ignorant, proud, and deceitful. They have no excuse. 'The law of prayer determines the law of belief' is, as affirmed by St. Pius X in Pascendi, a canon of faith from the time of Celestine I, that is, a dogma of the Catholic Church. The immemorial Roman rite has a Mass in honor of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mediatrix of all grace celebrated on May 31 established by Pope Benedict XV. Regarding this feast, Dom Gaspar Lefebvre, O.S.B. of the Abby of St. Andrew teaches:

    St. Mary of Agreda at the Coronation of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Queen of Heaven, writes that Jesus Christ addressed the entire heavenly assembly of angels and saints saying:

    Sanctifying grace is the created participation in the divine nature. The Blessed Virgin is the "Queen and Mistress of all that is created." In this Mass the Church prays:
    Rev. Gregory Alastruey's theological work titles, The Blessed Virgin Mary, says that, "There are five principle titles and offices due Mary, the Mother of God, by reason of her cooperation in redemption: Mediatrix, Co-redemptrix, Mother of Christians, Patroness or Advocate, and Queen and Mistress of the universe. I would recommend those who deny this proper honor to the Mother of God obtain a copy of the book and have their stupidity erased. I do not say, ignorance erased because willful ignorance is stupidity. Fr. Alastruey affirms that "Mary is truly mediatrix of the human race and this doctrine pertains to the deposit of faith." He then draws from Scripture, the Fathers, and theologians in support of this truth. He proves from the Church Fathers that the word "mediatrix" was explicitly used by St. Ephrem, St. Epiphanius, St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil of Seleucia, St. Andrew of Crete, St Germanus of Constantinople, St. John Damascene, St Theodore, St. Antoninus and Denis the Carthusian. He draws richly from the divine liturgy from both Eastern and Roman traditions. The errors of the Protestant heretics are addressed and exposed which are curiously the same as expressed by the Novus Ordo popes.

    Lastly, it is worth asking Why do the Novus Ordo popes hate these proper titles of the Mother of God? The answer is simple. The Blessed Virgin asked the three children at Fatima on June 13, 1917, "Are you willing to offer yourselves to God to bear all the sufferings He wills to send you, as an act of reparation for the sins by which He is offended, and of supplication for the conversion of sinners?" To which question all answered, "Yes, we are willing." The Mother of God said on July 13 after the children has seen a vision of Hell, "Sacrifice yourselves for sinners, and say many times, especially whenever you make some sacrifice: O Jesus, it is for love of You, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary." On August 19 the Mother of God continued saying, "Pray, pray very much, and make sacrifices for sinners; for many souls go to hell, because there are none to sacrifice themselves and to pray for them." The Blessed Virgin is asking the children to be co-redemptors and co-mediators of grace with her in union with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for the conversion and salvation of sinners. If the title of Co-Redemtrix and Mediatrix of all Grace can be taken away from the Mother of God then no one is responsible to do penance for their own sins or the sins of others. This falls back to the Protestant heresy on the dogma of justification and the very nature of our incorporation into the divine nature in the Mystical Body of Christ. Leo/Provost, like his predecessor Francis/Bergoglio, believes that proselytism is "solemn nonsense." They attack the titles to excuse their own faithless sloth. They are working to obscure the very means of salvation. As Jesus Christ said: "But woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men, for you yourselves do not enter in; and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter" (Matt 23:13).

    Pope Leo is just another heretic who denies the Blessed Virgin Mary her just titles of Mediatrix of all Grace and Co-Redemtrix. Only a few days ago, he celebrated with heretics, schismatics, Jews, Moslems, and a variety of idolaters a shared communion praying to their common god a united petition for peace in the world. He continues to ignore the peace plan offered by the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mediatrix of all Grace, at Fatima. Pope Leo will soon learn that those who insult the Mother have made an enemy of the Son.

    D. Drew
    Ss. Peter & Paul Roman Catholic Mission

    I just corrected the date of the Apparition in August to the 19th.
    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)