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Author Topic: Breaking: Taylor Marshall now questioning Bergoglio's legitimacy  (Read 11622 times)

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Offline Simeon

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Re: Breaking: Taylor Marshall now questioning Bergoglio's legitimacy
« Reply #120 on: August 10, 2022, 09:26:55 AM »
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  • This is interesting, and right on point.

    I get a real kick out of all their "analytics" and "hypotheses" to explain this phenomenon.

    They never even approach the real reason - a veritable sign in itself of their absolute inefficacy:






    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Breaking: Taylor Marshall now questioning Bergoglio's legitimacy
    « Reply #121 on: August 10, 2022, 10:22:33 AM »
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  • That looks like an interesting video I'll listen to.

    Father Amorth described the NO Exorcism Rite as ineffective.  But there's also the question of ... are the NO priests even valid, and I doubt Marshall and Fr. Ripperger would ever go there.

    Finally, even if an exorcism seems effective, it's very possible for the devil to simply voluntarily vacate if his agenda is to try to affirm in people's minds that NO Orders are valid even if they aren't.

    I always find it important not to draw theological conclusions from various phenomena ("miracles", exorcisms, etc.)  Devil can manipulate all those types of things quite easily.  That is the mind of the Church.  Church has never accepted various doctrinal pronouncements from private revelation based on the credibility of the phenomena, but rather assessed the credibility of the phenomena by whether or not the doctrine conforms to that of the Church (and other factors).  But if the doctrine of private revelation is problematic, the Church dismisses the revelation as illegitimate (either a fraud or diabolical in origin).


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Breaking: Taylor Marshall now questioning Bergoglio's legitimacy
    « Reply #122 on: August 10, 2022, 10:57:46 AM »
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  • That looks like an interesting video I'll listen to.

    Father Amorth described the NO Exorcism Rite as ineffective.  But there's also the question of ... are the NO priests even valid, and I doubt Marshall and Fr. Ripperger would ever go there.
    Of course they wouldn't, because it would mean for Dr. Marshall that he would lose a significant portion of his fan base. And, even more gravely, Chad Ripperger would be faced with the reality that he may not even be a priest, let alone exorcist.

    God bless +Ripperger for his great conferences on the nature of angels and demons, as well as exorcism, but he needs to realize that he's just another instrument of Satan meant to keep people in the NO.

    Quote
    Finally, even if an exorcism seems effective, it's very possible for the devil to simply voluntarily vacate if his agenda is to try to affirm in people's minds that NO Orders are valid even if they aren't.

    I always find it important not to draw theological conclusions from various phenomena ("miracles", exorcisms, etc.)  Devil can manipulate all those types of things quite easily.  That is the mind of the Church.  Church has never accepted various doctrinal pronouncements from private revelation based on the credibility of the phenomena, but rather assessed the credibility of the phenomena by whether or not the doctrine conforms to that of the Church (and other factors).  But if the doctrine of private revelation is problematic, the Church dismisses the revelation as illegitimate (either a fraud or diabolical in origin).

    The exorcism question was one that really tempted me to accept NO orders for the longest time, and I know of others I've spoken to that remain convinced by the miracles and exorcisms.

    As I said to Simeon earlier in the thread, it is Christ that ultimately makes the exorcism efficacious if it is successful because His Name has power. But it doesn't mean the person is a part of the Body. He addressed this in the Gospels:
    Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. - Matt. 7:22-23
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Breaking: Taylor Marshall now questioning Bergoglio's legitimacy
    « Reply #123 on: August 10, 2022, 11:26:18 AM »
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  • The exorcism question was one that really tempted me to accept NO orders for the longest time, and I know of others I've spoken to that remain convinced by the miracles and exorcisms.

    Yes, and that to me speaks to why the devil might simulate miracles and exorcisms.  We can't simply use those types of things to draw theological conclusions from.  Not only do you have people being persuaded by Eucharistic so-called "miracles" that the NO Mass is valid, but even that it's acceptable and pleasing to God.  I do not believe that God would ever work a legitimate Eucharistic miracle tied to the NOM, nor, for instance, among the Orthodox ... because God would not will to give the impression that either the NOM or Orthodoxy, etc. are pleasing to Him.

    With regard to exorcisms, it's not technically necessary to have valid Holy Orders to perform exorcisms.  Exorcist is actually a Minor Order, and most theologians hold that the Minor Orders do not confer any character but are merely appointments by the Church.  What's key in exorcism is the authority of the Church, which can even, in theory, be granted ad hoc to someone without Orders.  Perhaps that's where Pablo thinks he's received his commission.  Conversely, as Father Ripperger repeatedly points out, simply having Holy Orders ... without authorization from a bishop ... does not suffice for an effective exorcism.  There's nothing inherent in the priestly character about the power to perform exorcisms.  And, of course, finally, if the devil wanted specifically to create the impression (as you mention being tempted by) that NO Orders are valid, he can either simply abandon the possessed person in response to an NO exorcism or just could go quiet or dormant and cease to manifest himself, thereby giving the impression that he was removed by the exorcism.

    Generally speaking, however, demons do not like to make "showy" possessions.  Those actually tend to strengthen faith among doubters, have them believe in the preternatural and supernatural.  People can be "scared" by it into becoming more serious about their faith.  Their favorite tactics entail being unnoticed and unseen.  For the most part it's only because God forces them to manifest themselves that they'll actually do so.  What does the show actually benefit them?  It actually hurts their cause.  They like to go unseen and attract people to sin with false allurements, making sin attractive to people rather than scaring them away from it.  But here might be another reason they'd want to manifest their activity, precisely in order to trick people into believing that the NO is legitimate and valid and pleasing to God.

    On the flip side, when you have Traditional priests who have performed successful exorcisms, one might be tempted to argue from there that God supplied the authority for them to do it, and that's quite plausible (and it's what I believe), but in theory that also might be simulation from the devil if his intent was to create the impression that God was supplying jurisdiction even when He was not.

    So in both directions we can't draw theological conclusions from outward phenomena.  I do hold that God would supply jurisdiction / authority to Traditional priests, but I do not use exorcisms, miracles, private revelations, etc. to come to those conclusions.  I could try to pull the same stunt, "Look, Bishop McKenna performed a legitimate exorcism.  See, God does supply jurisdiction or authority to Trad priests." or if a +Thuc priest performed a exorcism, "See, I told you their orders are valid."  I do believe that to be the case, that God supplies the necessary authority to Trad priests/bishops and also that the +Thuc Orders are (mostly) valid ... but I could not use exorcisms as evidence in favor of that.

    LOL, that reminds me of a story that my brother Steve (God rest his soul) told me.  He was talking to a lady about the consecration of Bishop Dolan.  Steve mentioned the doubts out there about the +Thuc line, and the lady responded that she "knew" it was valid because when she was there (present for the consecration rite) she "sensed the Holy Ghost."  :laugh1:

    Offline Todd The Trad

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    Re: Breaking: Taylor Marshall now questioning Bergoglio's legitimacy
    « Reply #124 on: August 10, 2022, 12:21:18 PM »
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  • Yes, and that to me speaks to why the devil might simulate miracles and exorcisms.  We can't simply use those types of things to draw theological conclusions from.  Not only do you have people being persuaded by Eucharistic so-called "miracles" that the NO Mass is valid, but even that it's acceptable and pleasing to God.  I do not believe that God would ever work a legitimate Eucharistic miracle tied to the NOM, nor, for instance, among the Orthodox ... because God would not will to give the impression that either the NOM or Orthodoxy, etc. are pleasing to Him.

    With regard to exorcisms, it's not technically necessary to have valid Holy Orders to perform exorcisms.  Exorcist is actually a Minor Order, and most theologians hold that the Minor Orders do not confer any character but are merely appointments by the Church.  What's key in exorcism is the authority of the Church, which can even, in theory, be granted ad hoc to someone without Orders.  Perhaps that's where Pablo thinks he's received his commission.  Conversely, as Father Ripperger repeatedly points out, simply having Holy Orders ... without authorization from a bishop ... does not suffice for an effective exorcism.  There's nothing inherent in the priestly character about the power to perform exorcisms.  And, of course, finally, if the devil wanted specifically to create the impression (as you mention being tempted by) that NO Orders are valid, he can either simply abandon the possessed person in response to an NO exorcism or just could go quiet or dormant and cease to manifest himself, thereby giving the impression that he was removed by the exorcism.

    Generally speaking, however, demons do not like to make "showy" possessions.  Those actually tend to strengthen faith among doubters, have them believe in the preternatural and supernatural.  People can be "scared" by it into becoming more serious about their faith.  Their favorite tactics entail being unnoticed and unseen.  For the most part it's only because God forces them to manifest themselves that they'll actually do so.  What does the show actually benefit them?  It actually hurts their cause.  They like to go unseen and attract people to sin with false allurements, making sin attractive to people rather than scaring them away from it.  But here might be another reason they'd want to manifest their activity, precisely in order to trick people into believing that the NO is legitimate and valid and pleasing to God.

    On the flip side, when you have Traditional priests who have performed successful exorcisms, one might be tempted to argue from there that God supplied the authority for them to do it, and that's quite plausible (and it's what I believe), but in theory that also might be simulation from the devil if his intent was to create the impression that God was supplying jurisdiction even when He was not.

    So in both directions we can't draw theological conclusions from outward phenomena.  I do hold that God would supply jurisdiction / authority to Traditional priests, but I do not use exorcisms, miracles, private revelations, etc. to come to those conclusions.  I could try to pull the same stunt, "Look, Bishop McKenna performed a legitimate exorcism.  See, God does supply jurisdiction or authority to Trad priests." or if a +Thuc priest performed a exorcism, "See, I told you their orders are valid."  I do believe that to be the case, that God supplies the necessary authority to Trad priests/bishops and also that the +Thuc Orders are (mostly) valid ... but I could not use exorcisms as evidence in favor of that.

    LOL, that reminds me of a story that my brother Steve (God rest his soul) told me.  He was talking to a lady about the consecration of Bishop Dolan.  Steve mentioned the doubts out there about the +Thuc line, and the lady responded that she "knew" it was valid because when she was there (present for the consecration rite) she "sensed the Holy Ghost."  :laugh1:
    Sort of off topic but I was listening to a byzantine catholic priest interviewed the other day and he said all eastern catholic priests (at least byzantine) are exorcists.. I believe he said they are able to perform exorcisms without seeking any approval. 
    Our Lady of La Salette, pray for us!


    Offline HolyAngels

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    Re: Breaking: Taylor Marshall now questioning Bergoglio's legitimacy
    « Reply #125 on: August 10, 2022, 02:09:31 PM »
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  • With regard to exorcisms, it's not technically necessary to have valid Holy Orders to perform exorcisms.  Exorcist is actually a Minor Order, and most theologians hold that the Minor Orders do not confer any character but are merely appointments by the Church.  What's key in exorcism is the authority of the Church, which can even, in theory, be granted ad hoc to someone without Orders. 





    Apologies ... I need to edit my post and have to leave for work.... I'll add it when I get to work. In the meantime I was agreeing with what you said.
    For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places
    Ephesians 6:12

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Breaking: Taylor Marshall now questioning Bergoglio's legitimacy
    « Reply #126 on: August 10, 2022, 02:14:48 PM »
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  • [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]Editing[/color]

    Fixed it for you......

    We have it on the authority of all early writers who refer to the subject at all that in the first centuries not only the clergy, but lay Christians also were able by the power of Christ to deliver demoniacs or energumens, and their success was appealed to by the early Apologists as a strong argument for the Divinity of the Christian religion (Justin Martyr, First Apology 6; Dialogue with Trypho 30 and 85; Minutius Felix, Octavius 27; Origen, Against Celsus I.25; VII.4; VII.67; Tertullian, Apology 22, 23; etc.). As is clear from testimonies referred to, no magical or superstitious means were employed, but in those early centuries, as in later times, a simple and authoritative adjuration addressed to the demon in the name of God, and more especially in the name of Christ crucified, was the usual form of exorcism.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline HolyAngels

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    Re: Breaking: Taylor Marshall now questioning Bergoglio's legitimacy
    « Reply #127 on: August 10, 2022, 04:01:18 PM »
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  • Fixed it for you......

    We have it on the authority of all early writers who refer to the subject at all that in the first centuries not only the clergy, but lay Christians also were able by the power of Christ to deliver demoniacs or energumens, and their success was appealed to by the early Apologists as a strong argument for the Divinity of the Christian religion (Justin Martyr, First Apology 6; Dialogue with Trypho 30 and 85; Minutius Felix, Octavius 27; Origen, Against Celsus I.25; VII.4; VII.67; Tertullian, Apology 22, 23; etc.). As is clear from testimonies referred to, no magical or superstitious means were employed, but in those early centuries, as in later times, a simple and authoritative adjuration addressed to the demon in the name of God, and more especially in the name of Christ crucified, was the usual form of exorcism.
    Thank you, I had copied it from here ...

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05709a.htm
     .... and proceeded to paste it here without using the preview feature.
    Lesson learned :fryingpan:
    For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places
    Ephesians 6:12


    Offline HolyAngels

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    Re: Breaking: Taylor Marshall now questioning Bergoglio's legitimacy
    « Reply #128 on: August 10, 2022, 05:37:38 PM »
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  • Has anyone here acquired a copy of Fr Ripperger's Dominion ? Mine should be here by this Saturday.

    Also, is anyone familiar with Fr Ripperger's Deliverance Prayers For The Laity ? I bought a copy of it a few months ago and have been praying the Auxilium Christianorum prayers daily.
    For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places
    Ephesians 6:12

    Offline HolyAngels

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    Re: Breaking: Taylor Marshall now questioning Bergoglio's legitimacy
    « Reply #129 on: August 10, 2022, 08:41:15 PM »
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  • Fr Vincent Lampert, exorcist from Indianapolis, gave a talk at a local parish. He mentioned the new rite of exorcism and wasn't shy about criticizing it. It wouldn't surprise me if some exorcists use the old rite anyway.



    For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places
    Ephesians 6:12

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Breaking: Taylor Marshall now questioning Bergoglio's legitimacy
    « Reply #130 on: August 10, 2022, 08:55:50 PM »
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  • Catholics are not supposed to believe easily that anyone is obsessed by the devil, and only to believe someone to be obsessed who meets certain rather strict criteria.

    This is explained in the traditional Roman Ritual, page 269 in the text. Paragraph 3 says:

    Quote
    [The exorcist] must first of all not easily believe that someone is obsessed by the devil, but he must have known signs by which the obsessed is distinguished from those who suffer from some disease, especially mental disease. The signs of obsession of the devil can be: to speak many words in an unknown language, or to understand someone speaking in such a language, to make known distant or hidden things, to demonstrate strength above what is natural for his age and condition, and other things of this nature, which are greater signs if many of them occur at once.

    I have to wonder if Fr. Ripperger mentions these rules of the Church in his sermons or if he warns people against too easily believing people to be obsessed, as the Church warns even exorcists themselves, as here. Just imagine what the Church would say to all those little old Novus Ordo ladies who listen obsessively (sorry) to Fr. Ripperger and think they can identify people who are obsessed by the devil.

    And note that even one of those extraordinary signs don't seem to be considered sufficient, but only to establish a certain amount of probability, which becomes greater the more of those extraordinary signs occur at the same time. See how careful the Church was before Vatican 2 to avoid superstition and keep sound judgment! Now, in the New Church you have either complete rationalism on the one hand, and in the conservative branch of the Novus Ordo Church, where Fr. Ripperger resides, you have the opposite extreme where everyone who groans weird is considered obsessed, and he even preaches sermons on how to drive demons away yourself!


    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Breaking: Taylor Marshall now questioning Bergoglio's legitimacy
    « Reply #131 on: August 11, 2022, 07:27:46 AM »
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  • Very interesting posts yesterday. I cannot reply now, as duties of state press. But it so happens I am in Matthew's Gospel of late, and I always take Lapide with me on those journeys. And, providentially, I happen to be in Chapter 7, and no less, verses 22 and 23:

    "22. Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? 23. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity." 

    I want to post here for now what Lapide says, for it is not without interest:

    "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied, &c. Have we not foretold future events by Thy light and grace? So Maldonatus. Or otherwise, Have we not by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, by Thy commission and authority taught and preached the true faith? So Jansen.

    And done many wonderful works. He calls wonderful works, or miracles, virtue, as it is in the Greek and Vulgate. And those real miracles. For it is plain from this verse that God does sometimes work miracles even by false prophets, as He did by Judas the traitor (Luke x. 17, &c.) and Caiaphas (John xi. 49.) And Balaam the soothsayer (Numb. xxiv. 3). S. Jerorne says, “To work miracles is sometimes not because of his goodness who works them: but it is the invocation of the name of Christ which performs them for the good of others.” Whence S. Gregory collects (lib. 20, Moral. 8): “The proof of sanctity is not the performance of miracles, but to love one’s neighbour as oneself, and to think of God what is true, and to think better of one’s neighbour than of oneself.”

    Observe, although impious and false teachers may, by the gift of God, prophesy and work miracles, yet they cannot do this for the confirmation of false doctrine. For a miracle, even a solitary one, so long as it is real and plain, is not only a probable, but a morally certain proof of true doctrine, whence Christ and the Apostles use it as an inviolable argument for proving the Christian faith. Nor do we ever read of a miracle being wrought in confirmation of heresy or error. And à priori reasoning shows this. For a miracle is a singular and supernatural operation of God alone, by which, as by His own seal, God attests the right faith and truth, wherefore if God should hearken to a false teacher calling upon Him to confirm his error by a miracle, He would seem to co-operate with him, and attest his error, and by consequence, lie and deceive, which is impossible. For God is the Prime Verity, and the Truth itself, and He has reserved the power of working miracles to Himself alone, that by them, as a testimony peculiar to Himself, He may seal His own Word and His own Truth, and testify that they emanate from Him. A miracle therefore is as it were the Voice of God working and attesting that He does speak; and He confirms His words by it as by a seal. For other things are common to God, with angels, and devils. Wherefore in them it is doubtful whether God, or an angel, or the devil speaks and works. So D. Thomas (2a. 2æ,. quæst. 178, art. 2) and theologians passim. And S. Augustine (lib. Contra Epist. Fundamenti, c. 4) declares that he was held in the Church by the chains of miracles. And Richard de S. Victor says, (lib. 1 de Trinit. c. 2), “0 Lord, if it be error which we believe, we have been deceived by Thee. For our faith has been confirmed among us by such signs and wonders as could not have been wrought unless they were done by Thee.” (See also Bellarmine, lib. 4, On the notes of the Church, c. 14.)

    Let us observe, however, here, that if the gift of miracles has been given to any one by God for any reason, as an abiding habit, or condition, such a one may afterwards abuse the gift, and work the miracle for an evil end, such, for example, as vain glory, gain, or the confirmation of what is false. For in such a case God concurs indeed with the miracle itself but not with the abuse of it, or with the evil object of him who works it. For this He only permits. Thus God concurs with an impious priest in the consecration of the Eucharist, even though the priest intends to abuse it for the purposes of sorcery, or blasphemy, yea even to sell it to a Jєω to mock at and pierce it. And understand this, that I have said as to a wicked man abusing the gift of miracles, upon the principle, that any grace given by God for one end may be abused by evil men for another end. For it is plain that the power of consecration is given by God to a priest for one end, although he may abuse his power for another end. Still it appertains to the providence of God not to allow an impious man to abuse the grace of miracles to deceive others so as to lead them into heresy, if this misuse should be entirely hidden from them. For then men without any fault of their own, and on the authority, as it would appear, of God’s attestation would be led into error, which is impossible. Neither could God correct or amend their error by another miracle. For men would say that if the first miracle were wrought for the confirmation of what is false, by parity of reasoning, the second also might be wrought for the confirmation of what is false: so that God would, as it were, disarm Himself, and deprive Himself of the power of declaring and attesting the truth, and confuting error. For this consists in the working of miracles. In the case of those whom the common people call Saviours, even when they are of evil life, it is plain, says Navarrus in his Manuale, that the gift of curing diseases has been given them by God for the common good of the Church, and that they can abuse this gift for evil purposes. So also in Flanders, they say that those who are born on Good Friday, and also a seventh son, sprung in continual descent from a seventh son, are able to cure the King’s Evil by touching it. But the gift is given by God to the former in honour of Good Friday, and the mystery of Christ’s Death and Passion, and to the latter in honour of wedlock, to show that it has been honoured and instituted by God, and raised by Christ to the dignity of a Sacrament. Wherefore if any should use this power for evil, we can see that it is the man who is abusing his gift, not God who is co-operating with him for evil. Thus it is said that the same power of curing the King’s Evil has been given to the kings of England and France, on account of the merits of King Edward the Confessor. Indeed, one Tucker, a Protestant, wrote a Book about the persons cured of the King’s Evil, by Elizabeth, late Queen of England. But he is completely confuted by Delrio, in Magicis (lib. 1, c. 3, 9. 4).

    At any rate up to the present time there is no case on record in which it can be shown that any one who had even the habitual gift, has wrought a miracle for the confirmation of heresy, or false doctrine, unless we choose to allow that Calvin, pretending in confirmation of his heresy to raise a supposed dead man to life, who was really alive, God, to punish the deceit, caused the man to die. But all such miracles, as it were indications of perfidy, condemn heresy and confirm the true faith.

    Ver. 23.—And then will I confess unto them, &c. “I Christ, will say unto the false prophets, who have taught and done miracles in My Name, in the Judgment Day, I knew you indeed as My prophets, who did miracles in My Name: but as My friends and sons whom I predestinated to the inheritance of My glory, I know you not. That is, I do not love and delight in you, because the will and law of My Heavenly Father, which ye taught unto others with your mouths, ye have not fulfilled in your deeds. Go ye therefore into everlasting fire, because ye have wrought iniquity.” So says S. Augustine; and S. Gregory says, “Christ deserts them as unknown whom He did not know for the merit of their lives.” (Hom. 12 in Evangel.) This knowledge therefore of God is not speculative, but practical, loving, and affectionate: as we are said to know those whom we love, and not to know those whom we dislike."




    Offline HolyAngels

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    Re: Breaking: Taylor Marshall now questioning Bergoglio's legitimacy
    « Reply #132 on: August 11, 2022, 09:05:18 PM »
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  • Long video but ~ the 16:59 mark it really gets to the truth.

    For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places
    Ephesians 6:12

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Breaking: Taylor Marshall now questioning Bergoglio's legitimacy
    « Reply #133 on: August 11, 2022, 09:26:42 PM »
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  • Long video but ~ the 16:59 mark it really gets to the truth.


    I attended that conference. Good stuff.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]