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Author Topic: Bp. Williamson's Christmas Miracle?  (Read 5005 times)

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Offline Plenus Venter

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Re: Bp. Williamson's Christmas Miracle?
« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2023, 07:57:27 PM »
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  • Can someone explain to me why Bergoglio is pope?
    Yes, it's pretty straight forward, RM.
    He was elected by the Cardinals at the last conclave, and has been held to be Pope by the Catholic world ever since and has not been convicted of heresy by the Church nor declared not to be Pope.
    Therefore, we presume that he is Pope, in spite of his non-Catholic behaviour, in spite of all the doubts.
    This presumption in favour of validity which Bishop Williamson obviously adheres to, is exactly the same position as Archbishop Lefebvre, and is in no way an endorsement of the sedevacantist position, quite the contrary.

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Bp. Williamson's Christmas Miracle?
    « Reply #16 on: December 25, 2023, 08:10:55 PM »
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  • This presumption in favour of validity which Bishop Williamson obviously adheres to, is exactly the same position as Archbishop Lefebvre, and is in no way an endorsement of the sedevacantist position, quite the contrary.
    Bishop Williamson may presume that Bergoglio is the legitimate successor of St. Peter and spiritual leader of the world’s Catholics, but he surely doubts this as being fact. He has made that clear many times over. 

    The real question is why would anyone want to, as a lay Catholic, fight aggressively to support the idea that Bergoglio is your spiritual leader and the successor of St. Peter. I would never waste my time arguing such a point. I mean, look at Canon 188 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law and its foot notes referencing cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio. Why would you ever waste your time defending Bergoglio after reading that unless you yourself were not a Mason or some other anti-Catholic. Well, you could always spend time explaining how anti-sedevacantist Archbishop Lefebvre was. I guess. I don’t necessarily buy it though. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Bp. Williamson's Christmas Miracle?
    « Reply #17 on: December 25, 2023, 09:20:13 PM »
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  • Bishop Williamson may presume that Bergoglio is the legitimate successor of St. Peter and spiritual leader of the world’s Catholics, but he surely doubts this as being fact. He has made that clear many times over.

    The real question is why would anyone want to, as a lay Catholic, fight aggressively to support the idea that Bergoglio is your spiritual leader and the successor of St. Peter. I would never waste my time arguing such a point. I mean, look at Canon 188 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law and its foot notes referencing cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio. Why would you ever waste your time defending Bergoglio after reading that unless you yourself were not a Mason or some other anti-Catholic. Well, you could always spend time explaining how anti-sedevacantist Archbishop Lefebvre was. I guess. I don’t necessarily buy it though.
    No, that is not the real question at all.

    The real question is why anyone would so elevate their own private opinion as to declare the First See definitely vacant, now or before, in opposition to the guide that was given us in Archbishop Lefebvre, causing unnecessary division in the Traditional Catholic world.

    The words of Fr Chazal (below) are worth repeating again and again. It is important, we can see clearly enough just in our own little Cathinfo world  how much it has been a source of division and even, God forbid, rancour:

    "The practical behaviour of Catholics does not depend in any way on an opinion. What you say as a private person is not a dogma... and before Vatican II no dogma on this intricate, controversial and until then academic question had ever been formulated. On the contrary, with the exception of the time of Gratian, the constant unanimity was that there is no unanimity on this question."

    Or as so sensibly articulated by Pere Jean (OFM Cap, Morgon) in 2016:

    “It is understandable that some Traditional Catholics... be deeply troubled by the scandals of Pope Francis, who seems to have surpassed his predecessors'. The sedevacantist solution may appear to them as the simplest, most logical, and best. In fact, the fundamental problem remains the same since the '70s, and the prudent attitude of Abp Lefebvre, in considering the risk of excessive and rash judgement, with the attendant danger of schism, should not be abandoned. In 2001, the “Small Catechism on Sedevacantism” published by Le Sel de la Terre concluded: “This is a position that has not been proven at the speculative level, and it is imprudent to hold it at a practical level, an imprudence that can bear very serious consequences.” (No. 36, p. 117) This conclusion holds as much for Pope Francis as for Pope John-Paul II who had kissed the Quran".




    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Bp. Williamson's Christmas Miracle?
    « Reply #18 on: December 26, 2023, 05:42:47 AM »
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  • Plenus Vehemeter,

    This is where things get dicey and I am inclined to side with the dogmatic sedevacantist to some extent. Allow me to explain.

    You begin by stating that no Catholic should cause division by elevating their opinion that the See of Peter is vacant. To support this you cite the opinion of two priests without ordinary jurisdiction.

    However, when one looks closely at the matter, there is plenty of pre-Vatican 2 material written very clearly in black and white. For example, the Catholic Encyclopedia which states that about the election of the pope that a heretic, woman or insane person could not legitimately be elected pope. If you choose to follow your own OPINION and decide that a heretic can be legitimately elected pope then why not a woman or even the Dalai Lama? See where your opinion despite the Catholic encyclopedia statement leads you.

    Then you have Canon 188 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law (which I doubt you have read but include here as a snapshot). Notice rightly that the original cites Ex cuм Apostolatus as support for what it emshrines in law. No simple matter. Canon 188 clearly states: one will lose office without the need of any declarations whatsoever if one publicly defects from the Catholic Faith.

    At this point, your opinion that me believing Francis is no true pope is to be elevating my own opinion is now proven to be based on the opinion of two priests without ordinary jurisdiction and weighted with the opinion of a heroic deceased Archbishop who has not been alive for the the last 30 years of this Crisis and very well may have sided with my “opinion” (neither you nor I know).

    The problem here as analyzed objectively is that we both posit two opinions. My opinion is that Francis is not pope and it is absurd to fight in honor of defending his papacy. Your opinion is that it is absurd to negate the papacy of Francis and elevate one’s own opinion. The difference is that my opinion is based on what the pre-Vatican 2 Church taught regarding heretics and defected Catholics and the papacy in black and white. Your opinion is supported by, well, other people’s opinions. So I choose to take the safer course, ignore the opinions you have quoted and side with the Catholic Encyclopedia and 1917 Code of Canon Law. (188)

    The only out you have as I can see it is if you reject openly the claims of both the sources I cited and maintain the very novel opinion that a pope can be a Non-Catholic and a heretic. Or you could choose the second option of claiming that Francis has not publicly defected but does indeed hold the integral Catholic Faith. Of course, your third option is to murder your ego and investigate for yourself without the pride of being right.

    3 options for you. I wonder which you will choose.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bp. Williamson's Christmas Miracle?
    « Reply #19 on: December 26, 2023, 07:05:39 AM »
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  • Plenus Vehemeter,

    This is where things get dicey and I am inclined to side with the dogmatic sedevacantist to some extent. Allow me to explain.

    You begin by stating that no Catholic should cause division by elevating their opinion that the See of Peter is vacant. To support this you cite the opinion of two priests without ordinary jurisdiction.

    However, when one looks closely at the matter, there is plenty of pre-Vatican 2 material written very clearly in black and white. For example, the Catholic Encyclopedia which states that about the election of the pope that a heretic, woman or insane person could not legitimately be elected pope. If you choose to follow your own OPINION and decide that a heretic can be legitimately elected pope then why not a woman or even the Dalai Lama? See where your opinion despite the Catholic encyclopedia statement leads you.

    Then you have Canon 188 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law (which I doubt you have read but include here as a snapshot). Notice rightly that the original cites Ex cuм Apostolatus as support for what it emshrines in law. No simple matter. Canon 188 clearly states: one will lose office without the need of any declarations whatsoever if one publicly defects from the Catholic Faith.

    At this point, your opinion that me believing Francis is no true pope is to be elevating my own opinion is now proven to be based on the opinion of two priests without ordinary jurisdiction and weighted with the opinion of a heroic deceased Archbishop who has not been alive for the the last 30 years of this Crisis and very well may have sided with my “opinion” (neither you nor I know).

    The problem here as analyzed objectively is that we both posit two opinions. My opinion is that Francis is not pope and it is absurd to fight in honor of defending his papacy. Your opinion is that it is absurd to negate the papacy of Francis and elevate one’s own opinion. The difference is that my opinion is based on what the pre-Vatican 2 Church taught regarding heretics and defected Catholics and the papacy in black and white. Your opinion is supported by, well, other people’s opinions. So I choose to take the safer course, ignore the opinions you have quoted and side with the Catholic Encyclopedia and 1917 Code of Canon Law. (188)

    The only out you have as I can see it is if you reject openly the claims of both the sources I cited and maintain the very novel opinion that a pope can be a Non-Catholic and a heretic. Or you could choose the second option of claiming that Francis has not publicly defected but does indeed hold the integral Catholic Faith. Of course, your third option is to murder your ego and investigate for yourself without the pride of being right.

    3 options for you. I wonder which you will choose.
    Not to mention the repeated, false assertion of certain R&R folks that sedevacantists/sedevacantism cause/causes "disunity" and "division" among Catholics. 

    The real cause of disunity comes from the men they continue to call true popes.  Rather than point their fingers where they should be pointed, they prefer to point them at sedes...even those they don't label as "dogmatic".




    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Bp. Williamson's Christmas Miracle?
    « Reply #20 on: December 26, 2023, 08:55:55 AM »
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  • Yes, it's pretty straight forward, RM.
    He was elected by the Cardinals at the last conclave, and has been held to be Pope by the Catholic world ever since and has not been convicted of heresy by the Church nor declared not to be Pope.
    Therefore, we presume that he is Pope, in spite of his non-Catholic behaviour, in spite of all the doubts.
    This presumption in favour of validity which Bishop Williamson obviously adheres to, is exactly the same position as Archbishop Lefebvre, and is in no way an endorsement of the sedevacantist position, quite the contrary.

    The presumption in favour of validity holds when there is no reasonable evidence to the contrary.  However, there is enough evidence in the case of Jorge Bergoglio to establish at least a well-founded positive and probable doubt, and this on more than one front (e.g., public manifest formal heresy, invalid election).  As such, St. Robert Bellarmine's teaching comes to mind, that is, "papa dubius, papa nullus".





    Based on what Bishop Williamson said in the above sermon, he should be concluding that Jorge Bergoglio is a doubtful pope and that therefore we do not owe him obedience. 

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Bp. Williamson's Christmas Miracle?
    « Reply #21 on: December 26, 2023, 09:03:49 AM »
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  • the guide that was given us in Archbishop Lefebvre
    Someone should do a compilation of titles and adjectives given to Abp. Lefebvre by his followers, we might arrive at a veritable litany fitting for a saintly pope.

    Quote
    Now this I say, that every one of you saith: I indeed am of Paul; and I am of Apollo; and I am of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? Was Paul then crucified for you? or were you baptized in the name of Paul?  (1 Cor 1:12-13)



    Lefebvre isn't the guide of faith and principle of unity given to you by God, that would be the Pope. YOU chose Lefebvre, YOU decided he was a saint, YOU decided to trust him with your soul. One could choose Abp. Thuc to be his light and saviour just as well as you chose Abp. Lefebvre and you would both be wrong in putting your trust in man.

    The number one reason people don't have the true faith today is because they put their entire trust in man, not God.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Bp. Williamson's Christmas Miracle?
    « Reply #22 on: December 26, 2023, 09:05:36 AM »
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  • St. Robert Bellarmine's teaching comes to mind, that is, "papa dubius, papa nullus".
    What I'm hearing is that the Quran-kisser's and Mass-wrecker's papacies aren't even doubtful.


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Bp. Williamson's Christmas Miracle?
    « Reply #23 on: December 26, 2023, 09:09:26 AM »
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  • The real question is why would anyone want to, as a lay Catholic, fight aggressively to support the idea that Bergoglio is your spiritual leader and the successor of St. Peter. 

    It is because many in the so-called Resistance are under the false impression that Archbishop Lefebvre taught some universal principle that a putative pope is always to be accepted as a true pope.  However, the Archbishop taught no such thing.  Rather, he taught that whether a putative pope is truly pope is based on the evidence.  See here.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Bp. Williamson's Christmas Miracle?
    « Reply #24 on: December 26, 2023, 09:18:33 PM »
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  • Of course, your third option is to murder your ego and investigate for yourself without the pride of being right.
    Sound advice, CA. I'm glad we agree on something.  :-)

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Bp. Williamson's Christmas Miracle?
    « Reply #25 on: December 27, 2023, 04:22:38 AM »
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  • What I'm hearing is that the Quran-kisser's and Mass-wrecker's papacies aren't even doubtful.
    That would be what you are hearing from the sedevacantists, Marulus, who know for certain that he is not Pope and make a definitive judgement which obliges the Catholic conscience.
    What did St Robert Bellarmine mean by this phrase about a doubtful Pope? What was he referring to? How has the Church applied it? Is it a dogmatic Catholic teaching?
    Archbishop Lefebvre admitted a doubt. He said he could not have metaphysical certainty. He said 'I don't know'. He went on to say (all in 1983 in response to the departure of the nine) that 'it is a very great presumption' to presume that he remains Pope. That was in English, which he struggled with, but his meaning was that it is a very good presumption.
    That is what separates the sedevacantist from ABL and R&R. The sedevacantist knows, whereas R&R refrains from a definitive judgement because it is an entirely new situation in the Church and it is not certain that we can make such a judgement.


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Bp. Williamson's Christmas Miracle?
    « Reply #26 on: December 27, 2023, 04:29:31 AM »
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  • Someone should do a compilation of titles and adjectives given to Abp. Lefebvre by his followers, we might arrive at a veritable litany fitting for a saintly pope.
    I challenge you to do this, Marulus.
    Let us know your objections. So far we have 'the guide that God gave us'. You reject this?
    Even the nine who left ABL admitted his sanctity: Bishop Sanborn, Fr Cekada, Fr Jenkins. Do you wish to correct them?
    Undoubtedly he will have a special place in Heaven beside Pope St Pius X whom he took as his patron.
    But for you he was a failure because he didn't declare a non-pope... what to say?

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Bp. Williamson's Christmas Miracle?
    « Reply #27 on: December 27, 2023, 04:47:28 AM »
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  • Lefebvre isn't the guide of faith and principle of unity given to you by God, that would be the Pope. YOU chose Lefebvre,
    No, God chose him, I didn't even exist.
    In every great crisis God has raised up a saint to guide Catholics who want to remain faithful.
    In the greatest crisis of all, according to you, He left us orphans.
    God chose ABL for his mission in the Church and Catholics the world over recognised in him a true and faithful shepherd, one preeminently suited to guiding us along the sure path of the Popes and the Church. But you know the Popes and the Church better than he.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Bp. Williamson's Christmas Miracle?
    « Reply #28 on: December 27, 2023, 05:18:46 AM »
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  • The presumption in favour of validity holds when there is no reasonable evidence to the contrary.  However, there is enough evidence in the case of Jorge Bergoglio to establish at least a well-founded positive and probable doubt, and this on more than one front (e.g., public manifest formal heresy, invalid election).  As such, St. Robert Bellarmine's teaching comes to mind, that is, "papa dubius, papa nullus"...

    Based on what Bishop Williamson said in the above sermon, he should be concluding that Jorge Bergoglio is a doubtful pope and that therefore we do not owe him obedience.
    What evidence?
    No Cardinal-elector was heard to voice a concern.
    No rival claim to the papacy has been heard.
    Francis was universally accepted by the Church from day one as the Pope.
    There has been no imperfect Council called to convict him and declare him a heretic, as St Robert Bellarmine requires (a theological opinion at that).
    But certain people have come up with theories, all based on uncertainties, that give us the right to take down the head of the Church?
    Absolute nonsense Catholic Knight.

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Bp. Williamson's Christmas Miracle?
    « Reply #29 on: December 27, 2023, 05:52:10 AM »
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  • I’m going to say something really controversial in Tradition right now but I don’t think Archbishop Lefebvre will ever be canonized as some great saint by the Church. I believe he led a heroic life and did great things. I believe that his books should be sold in churches around the world. I believe many good things about Archbishop Lefebvre. But Plenus Vehementer has raised him to a shining star guiding the path. I think we need many archbishops like him. But not one in particular that is elevated to a status of being the greatest archbishop ever and that his position in 1990 is wheee we should stand locked in time forever. Over thirty years ago into this crisis. If we stay locked in the mindset of 30 years ago we indefinitely further this crisis as if we await a miracle from God. I disagree with this approach. 

    Also, there is the signature of Archbishop Lefebvre on all the Vatican 2 docuмents and his claim that he didn’t sign those docuмents. I’m willing to accept that he signed to acknowledge his presence there and nothing more as a sort of roll call. But there was a ton of controversy regarding the signature on all Vatican 2 docuмents and the claim that there was not. It’s not guaranteed that Archbishop Lefebvre will ever be canonized. He did many great things for Tradition. That is undoubtedly true. If we repeat forever that “now is not the time” to say that we do not believe the pope is valid. Then we accept any nonsense from the non-Catholic sect in Rome. Including women priests and ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ marriages. If you do not think that that is right on the horizon then you haven’t been paying attention. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...