You're adding the dimension of time into it. Yes, anything before the date of his conditional consecration should be treated as doubtful, that is to say assumed invalid.

Agree.

But as of today, +Vigano is both publicly known as a bishop,

Public, only in the sense that *some* Trads know (mostly on this site).  I won't consider it public until +Vigano puts out an email/docuмent about it.  Or +W sends out an email.

What about the conciliar/indulters whom +Vigano served for most of his apostolic life?  They don't need to know that his actions are invalid?  They don't need to know that the new sacraments are doubtful and (practically) invalid?  Yes, they need to know and they deserve to know.

AND objectively IS a bishop (no more doubt) because he was conditionally consecrated.

Yes, and now, as a real bishop, he needs to come to terms with his "doubtful bishop" period.  He has to make amends, in a sense.  He OWES these people an explanation, that their sacraments are bunk.

If he doesn't do this, then he's only thinking of himself.  That's a major red flag.  I'll give it some time, but mark this down.

If you can't admit that this is an issue, then y'all have a problem too.  Catholic charity demands that a cleric fix past mistakes as best he can.  The first step is admitting there's a problem.

The only other thing I can add to this discussion is the subject of "Trad Smacking".

In Flat Earth circles, there's the concept of "Flat Smacking" where you basically try to convince people about Flat Earth, shoot holes in the Globe paradigm, try to wake people up -- you get the idea. It's basically missionary activity but highly visible, attention-getting, proactive, and at times aggressive, rather than just setting up a table and answering questions from people who walk up to them.

Basically it's about shoving a "red pill" down peoples' throats. Some argue that's a good work. Others argue it's a waste of time.

Apply this to the Crisis in the Church. Enter "Trad Smacking"

Why wouldn't we want to Trad Smack everyone in the Novus Ordo? They're ALL receiving doubtful or invalid sacraments, from priests who have NOT been conditionally ordained after their dubious ordination, and attending a doubtful Rite of Mass.

What I'm trying to say is, why limit your compassion to +Vigano's past flock? Why not take it upon yourself as an obligation to Trad Smack 24/7? If you get kicked out of one church, move on to the next. You will not run out of churches before the Son of Man returns.

Now some might say it would be casting pearls before swine, that many aren't disposed to the Truth, that it takes grace to see the truth, etc. but at least it's a legitimate discussion.

My point: who, precisely, are we OBLIGATED to "Trad Smack"? When does it become an obligation, rather than a question of personality, opinion, etc? After all, there is a variety of opinion as to how much good it does. And some personality types "enjoy" such Smacking activity more than others.

Why wouldn't we want to Trad Smack everyone in the Novus Ordo? They're ALL receiving doubtful or invalid sacraments, from priests who have NOT been conditionally ordained after their dubious ordination, and attending a doubtful Rite of Mass.

+Vigano has a duty to declare his prior sacraments as doubtful.  It's part of the virtue of justice, to admit your prior path was wrong and that people were affected (even if you are not 100% guilty, for your prior path, since you were duped as well).  I don't care if 0 people care and they all ignore him.  It's his duty.  His Guardian Angel will listen and note it all.

What I'm trying to say is, why limit your compassion to +Vigano's past flock?

If +W and +Vigano (and every other Trad cleric who came from the novus ordo) would be more public with these conditional rites, and more vehement about exposing the new rites' doubtfulness, then Traditionalism would be stronger.

As it is, the new-sspx (and now the Resistance) are going the OPPOSITE DIRECTION of Traditionalism, because they are missing the opportunity to reiterate, remind and exhort Trads to stay.away.from.the.indult.  The new-sspx is turning into the indult and the Resistance is acting the same way.  

My point: who, precisely, are we OBLIGATED to "Trad Smack"? When does it become an obligation, rather than a question of personality, opinion, etc? After all, there is a variety of opinion as to how much good it does. And some personality types "enjoy" such Smacking activity more than others.

Most of the Millennial generation (from 25-40ish...those with families) are the ones who have left Traditionalism for the indult and diocesan TLM.  This generation is not strong in principles, is easily swayed by human respect and does not see a difference between the indult and true Trads.  "A latin mass is a latin mass", they say.


THESE are the people that need reminding (and the new-sspx is NOT reminding them, nor (to a lesser degree) is +W) that the main reason that the indult is off-limits and a mortal sin is because of DOUBTFUL SACRAMENTS (per canon law).  This is no small matter.

These are former Trads, many of whom were born and raised there.  This is not "pearls before swine" circuмstance.  This is not some Joe-Blow, jeans-wearing, doofus who goes to 4pm "sunday" mass in sneakers once a month.

These are Catholics who are in perilous spiritual shape.  They KNOW about doubtful sacraments (or should).  And silence on this matter of conditional sacraments is missing a BIG opportunity to remind the faithful and bring up a very important topic.

The reason for being silent on the issue of the conditional consecrations and ordinations can be found in Pope Leo XIII's, 1896 "Apostolicae Curae". The frustrated Pontiff, before his most famous declaration, gives a short story of what happened in the years after the introduction of the Edwardian rite. In paragraph nr.3 he states:
    "3. For an opinion already prevalent, confirmed more than once by the action and constant practice of the Church, maintained that when in England, shortly after it was rent from the center of Christian Unity, a new rite for conferring Holy Orders was publicly introduced under Edward VI, the true Sacrament of Order as instituted by Christ lapsed, and with it the hierarchical succession."

What was that action and constant practice of the Church?

   "15. The authority of Julius III, and of Paul IV, which we have quoted, clearly shows the origin of that practice which has been observed without interruption for more than three centuries, that Ordinations conferred according to the Edwardine rite should be considered null and void. This practice is fully proved by the numerous cases of absolute re-ordination according to the Catholic rite even in Rome."

    "16. ... Custom is the best interpreter of law. Since in the Church it has been a constant and established rule that it is sacrilegious to repeat the Sacrament of Order, it never could have come to pass that the Apostolic See should have silently acquiesced in and tolerated such a custom. But not only did the Apostolic See tolerate this practice, but approved and sanctioned it as often as any particular case arose which called for its judgement in the matter."

The SSPX and "Sedevacantists" follow the custom of conditionally ordaining and, in the case of Fr. Vigano, consecrating sub conditione. Archbishop LeFebvre gave his priests and bishops a tremendous gift of the unbroken line of Apostolic Succession in the Roman Catholic Rite. No one questions this. They are the Church. Their practice casts the shadow on the new rite of Order, and it has to be stopped by the Conciliar sect; otherwise, in the future a true Pope will simply repeat the words of Pope Leo XIII, and then... the "Alice in Wonderland" moment will occur. "You are only a deck of cards", not a hierarchy of Christ's Church! And yee-haa!, the whole modernist edifice will crumble in an instant.

Viva Cristo Rey!

Agree.
Public, only in the sense that *some* Trads know (mostly on this site).  I won't consider it public until +Vigano puts out an email/docuмent about it.  Or +W sends out an email.

What about the conciliar/indulters whom +Vigano served for most of his apostolic life?  They don't need to know that his actions are invalid?  They don't need to know that the new sacraments are doubtful and (practically) invalid?  Yes, they need to know and they deserve to know.Yes, and now, as a real bishop, he needs to come to terms with his "doubtful bishop" period.  He has to make amends, in a sense.  He OWES these people an explanation, that their sacraments are bunk.

If he doesn't do this, then he's only thinking of himself.  That's a major red flag.  I'll give it some time, but mark this down.

If you can't admit that this is an issue, then y'all have a problem too.  Catholic charity demands that a cleric fix past mistakes as best he can.  The first step is admitting there's a problem.

How many priests do you think he ordained?  How many confirmations did he do?  How many of them actually care about his new view?  Yes at some point everything should be rectified, but where do you start when you spent 50 years in the dark.

That was my point. It got me thinking, which led to my above posts.

When a person has spent 50 years in the Novus Ordo, how does one "make it right"? You're basically talking about Trad-smacking or let's say "Promoting the Traditional cause" in the most effective, most efficient way. That seems to be precisely what +Vigano is doing.

He has X years left to wake up or "reach" the maximum number of people.

To those of you who are still quite against +Vigano --
Are you saying you'd go about achieving that goal differently than the course +Vigano is pursuing right now? If so, good for you. Let's just say I'm not willing to automatically assume, out of the gate, that you're smarter or wiser than he is. Hopefully that doesn't offend you, but too bad if it does.

We each have to answer to God according to OUR OWN lights and OUR OWN abilities. Which is why only God can judge +Vigano or anyone else.

This is the issue.  I don't see any posters who are "still quite against Vigano".  I just see some of us not jumping on the Vigano train like you and Ladislaus (and to a somewhat lesser extent Pax Vobis due to Vigano's/+Williamson's silence on his Old Rite consecration).

Ladislaus calls us bitter assholes and you've posted that we should be ashamed for not doing the same.  Even those who have made moves towards Vigano (QVD and to a lesser extent me) have still been condemned for not going all the way.  

Any members who are truly "against Vigano" have probably chosen not to post their views given the climate here regarding Vigano.  

I don’t know the details to this answer.  But I certainly know you can’t keep silent.  You can’t pretend that your new rite Bishop-life was ok, no issues. 

The fact that some of you are still defending silence in the matter is mind-boggling. 

It sure is. If we could take Vigano out of the equation and imagine it was some other very public NO cleric and that +Williamson wasn't the consecrator, I do wonder whether the reactions would be the same. I know I would still expect the consecration be made public by the former NO cleric and trad bishop.