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Author Topic: Bp? Vigano: Saul or Paul? Fr. McKenna Interview  (Read 11369 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: Bp? Vigano: Saul or Paul? Fr. McKenna Interview
« Reply #75 on: July 08, 2024, 12:30:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 08, 2024, 12:26:24 PM
    You can say whatever you want.  But they are not required to give you, Meg, or anyone else answers just to satisfy your curiosity.

    You know full well that it's not "Me" who needs proof. This is why it's sometimes impossible to debate with you. Making public a conditional episcopal consecration isn't for any particular individual. It's for the greater public in general.

    I see that you have gone into a full-on attempt to stifle any discussion on this matter, in that none of us has any right to know anything about it. Why is that? What are you afraid of?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bp? Vigano: Saul or Paul? Fr. McKenna Interview
    « Reply #76 on: July 08, 2024, 12:38:58 PM »
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    • Quote
    Where's the requirement to publicly announce them, ESPECIALLY when there's no practical need to know,
    The practical need to know is:  WHY was the conditional consecration done?


    Was it for personal/sentimental reasons?  Or was it because of doctrinal reasons (i.e. the new rites are doubtful)?  Or somewhere in between?

    In this day and age, it does matter.  It's a statement of principles.

    Lad, as much as you criticized the new-sspx for their support of Huonder, you'd have to recant such criticism, since you're argument is "we don't need to know".  If we don't need to know, then 1) this presumes the new rites are valid and not doubtful and 2) if there was a problem, the new-sspx would investigate and conditionally fix the problem...but again, we don't need to know.  So your logic must presume that Huonder was legit or conditionally legit.
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Bp? Vigano: Saul or Paul? Fr. McKenna Interview
    « Reply #77 on: July 08, 2024, 12:40:34 PM »
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    • We need a mother to come in and tell her children to stop fighting.  In God's time, all will be revealed, but until then no one knows exactly what is happening.  The only thing we do know is something really bad happened at Vatican 2 and the church exploded into many different opinions that have morphed over the last 60+ years.  We know there are groups that say they are the visible church and follow Pope Francis (in Rome), and we know that there are groups who said that this can't happen and kept the Faith (outside Rome). (and then there is the SSPX straddling the line) That is all we really know.  Everything else is guess work.  And the fruits of Vatican 2 have been nothing but the decaying of society.  If the Church had been strong, then we would have had a different future.  We have so many resources to use to become "Great Catholics"  but we keep focusing on the things we cannot control.

    :pray::pray::pray::pray::pray::pray::pray::pray::pray::pray::pray::pray::pray::pray::pray:
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    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bp? Vigano: Saul or Paul? Fr. McKenna Interview
    « Reply #78 on: July 08, 2024, 01:09:44 PM »
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    We need a mother to come in and tell her children to stop fighting.
    It's called a debate.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bp? Vigano: Saul or Paul? Fr. McKenna Interview
    « Reply #79 on: July 08, 2024, 01:18:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on July 08, 2024, 11:42:43 AM
    Good to know that they do things properly. Glad to hear it.

    On a slightly different subject, I have to wonder, too, as why the need for a secret consecration? (Assuming for a moment that the conditional consecration took place).

    Were they afraid of offending someone, or a particular group? +Vigano does have a lot of conservative supporters whom he may not want to offend. Or, being conditionally consecrated by a "h0Ɩ0cαųst denier" might not go over well in certain quarters. +W is correct in his view of the fake h0Ɩ0cαųst, but some trads or conservative novus ordo types wouldn't agree.

    Or maybe there was another reason?
    But then why select Bishop Williamson?  Why not some other Trad bishop? 

    I do think that once his "Brother Bishops" find out the truth of his consecration, that might not go over too well with them.  I also think it might affect those still in the NO structure looking to go to his seminary (although the excommunication might have already affected that).
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    Offline songbird

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    Re: Bp? Vigano: Saul or Paul? Fr. McKenna Interview
    « Reply #80 on: July 08, 2024, 01:21:22 PM »
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    • Sorrow,  Confession and with who?  All is needed if/before a sacrament is given.   Vigano needs sorrow and confession. Then what?  My great great uncle Fr. Stoltz ordained 1907 Confraternity of the Precious Blood had schooling 1894 and seminary at St. Charles in Ohio til his ordination of 1907.  13 years.  These priests, sons of St. Gaspar were so formed;  Detroit MI , St. Anthony had these priests until they died off/new order destroyed the seminary in 1967.

    I don't agree with the so-called conditional consecrations. Some don't even know the latin Mass, let alone know the powers!  Has Vigano ever said to the world, I am so sorry for all I ever did.  For all I didn't do, neglect loss of souls directed the ways of satan.  

    I say, he should take care of his soul and soul of others and talk that way, instead of all the dooms day talk of how horrible things are.  I did that when reading federal grants.  I grant you, you get no where unless you have the powers of the Precious Blood, in all the sacraments.  He should be talking in this fashion, yet he doesn't.  He talks like M. Voris.  The itchy ears, those who like hearing what they already know.  BUT those talkers, always overlook the solution.  Ask for their solution.  But no sorrow, of sins, no sacrament can be had.  Vigano's sorrows are not in his dooms day talks.  
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    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Bp? Vigano: Saul or Paul? Fr. McKenna Interview
    « Reply #81 on: July 08, 2024, 01:40:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on July 08, 2024, 11:43:27 AM
    +Vigano was ordained in Feb 1968, the new right of ordination came out in Jun of 1968.  If I remember correctly.
    https://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bvigano.html

    +Vigano was ordained Mar 24, 1968, not in February, according to the Catholic Hierarchy site.  I read that Pius XII chose Wojtyla to be consecrated the assistant bishop of Krakow in 1958, and Pius did this without consulting the Primate of Poland, Card. Wyszynski, which was tradition for the pope. 
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bp? Vigano: Saul or Paul? Fr. McKenna Interview
    « Reply #82 on: July 08, 2024, 01:43:09 PM »
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    Has Vigano ever said to the world, I am so sorry for all I ever did.
    Yes, he has.  Maybe not to the degree to which you want.  Did you read his latest declaration?  Doesn't sound like you did.


    You shouldn't criticize someone before reading everything he's said publicly.  Not charitable.
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Bp? Vigano: Saul or Paul? Fr. McKenna Interview
    « Reply #83 on: July 08, 2024, 01:53:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 08, 2024, 01:09:44 PM
    It's called a debate.
    Is it really?  Or is it called pride?

    Don't get me wrong.  I agree with a lot of what you say, but some people just want to be on the winning team.  We are all essentially taking gambles in this debate.  What if we picked the wrong team?  Lucky we have a merciful God, who knows our true hearts.  I think sometimes the topics, just go round and round.
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    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bp? Vigano: Saul or Paul? Fr. McKenna Interview
    « Reply #84 on: July 08, 2024, 02:06:26 PM »
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    Is it really?  Or is it called pride?
    It's not prideful to debate principles.  If it is, then +Bellarmine was prideful for all of his theological debates back in the 1600s.  He obviously wasn't.

    Quote
    Don't get me wrong.  I agree with a lot of what you say, but some people just want to be on the winning team.  We are all essentially taking gambles in this debate.  What if we picked the wrong team?  Lucky we have a merciful God, who knows our true hearts.  I think sometimes the topics, just go round and round.
    Saying someone is wrong, is not saying they are evil or ill-intentioned.  I say that +W is wrong on certain things, but i'm basing this on principles/facts.  I don't believe he's doing evil, but he just doesn't "buy in" to the principles in the same way.  Adults debate; children argue.

    Besides, the only people who "gamble" are those who pick a side without understanding (or attempting to, on a continual basis) to understand the principles.  If somebody just picks a side "Oh, that sounds ok", or "that feels right", then those are those who are gambling.  I don't gamble when it comes to religion. 

    It's why God gave us a brain and free will...to debate, to learn and (if necessary) to re-calibrate.  Gambling is for people who don't want to think, or who think all controversy is prideful or argumentative.  Some people can't debate without controlling their emotions.  That's what they have to work on.  Plenty of people can debate without sinning.  That's the default, adult norm.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bp? Vigano: Saul or Paul? Fr. McKenna Interview
    « Reply #85 on: July 08, 2024, 02:09:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on July 08, 2024, 12:30:48 PM
    You know full well that it's not "Me" who needs proof. This is why it's sometimes impossible to debate with you. Making public a conditional episcopal consecration isn't for any particular individual. It's for the greater public in general.

    I see that you have gone into a full-on attempt to stifle any discussion on this matter, in that none of us has any right to know anything about it. Why is that? What are you afraid of?
    Hasn't he been doing this for months now?     
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Bp? Vigano: Saul or Paul? Fr. McKenna Interview
    « Reply #86 on: July 08, 2024, 02:12:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on July 08, 2024, 02:09:38 PM
    Hasn't he been doing this for months now?   

    Yeah, true. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Bp? Vigano: Saul or Paul? Fr. McKenna Interview
    « Reply #87 on: July 08, 2024, 02:18:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on July 08, 2024, 01:53:31 PM
    Is it really?  Or is it called pride?

    Don't get me wrong.  I agree with a lot of what you say, but some people just want to be on the winning team.  We are all essentially taking gambles in this debate.  What if we picked the wrong team?  Lucky we have a merciful God, who knows our true hearts.  I think sometimes the topics, just go round and round.

    Yes, we do go round and round. For a while, one topic will get a lot of traction, and then there will be a lull, and another topic will be hotly debated. That seems to be the nature of forums. I liken it to the old alehouse or tavern model.

    Have you ever read Chesterton's views of how the local tavern worked in the last century and before that? The way they worked was that the men of the community would gather in the local tavern to socialize and debate and discuss certain topics, often political. These taverns (at least in England and Ireland) served a public good. Not sure that they work in the same way anymore. 

    We could be backing the wrong side....that's true. And we may change our minds along the way, but if we are lucky, we'll learn something from it. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Bp? Vigano: Saul or Paul? Fr. McKenna Interview
    « Reply #88 on: July 08, 2024, 02:19:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 08, 2024, 02:06:26 PM
    It's not prideful to debate principles.  If it is, then +Bellarmine was prideful for all of his theological debates back in the 1600s.  He obviously wasn't.
    Saying someone is wrong, is not saying they are evil or ill-intentioned.  I say that +W is wrong on certain things, but i'm basing this on principles/facts.  I don't believe he's doing evil, but he just doesn't "buy in" to the principles in the same way.  Adults debate; children argue.

    Besides, the only people who "gamble" are those who pick a side without understanding (or attempting to, on a continual basis) to understand the principles.  If somebody just picks a side "Oh, that sounds ok", or "that feels right", then those are those who are gambling.  I don't gamble when it comes to religion. 

    It's why God gave us a brain and free will...to debate, to learn and (if necessary) to re-calibrate.  Gambling is for people who don't want to think, or who think all controversy is prideful or argumentative.  Some people can't debate without controlling their emotions.  That's what they have to work on.  Plenty of people can debate without sinning.  That's the default, adult norm.
    Ok. You got me on semantics.  Bad habit of using the wrong words to express what I feel. In a straight logical sense, what you say is true.  But let me ask you something, what type of people were St. Bellarmine debating?  I am guessing well-educated men.  Unfortunately people start getting emotional in how they are discussing things.  When that happens it causes discord in ones soul and then people begin to debate with an emotional edge.  Maybe it doesn't affect you, but maybe it affects others in the debate, or maybe it is affecting the people who are just watching.  I don't know maybe it is just me?

    Carry on.
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    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bp? Vigano: Saul or Paul? Fr. McKenna Interview
    « Reply #89 on: July 08, 2024, 02:28:41 PM »
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    • Quote
    Unfortunately people start getting emotional in how they are discussing things.  When that happens it causes discord in ones soul and then people begin to debate with an emotional edge.  Maybe it doesn't affect you, but maybe it affects others in the debate, or maybe it is affecting the people who are just watching.  I don't know maybe it is just me?
    It's not fair to project your feelings on others.  If this topic/thread causes you to react negatively, then it's your obligation to "take a timeout" and stop reading, not to tell everyone else to stop.
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