+Vigano has a duty to declare his prior sacraments as doubtful.  It's part of the virtue of justice, to admit your prior path was wrong and that people were affected (even if you are not 100% guilty, for your prior path, since you were duped as well).  I don't care if 0 people care and they all ignore him.  It's his duty.  His Guardian Angel will listen and note it all.

If +W and +Vigano (and every other Trad cleric who came from the novus ordo) would be more public with these conditional rites, and more vehement about exposing the new rites' doubtfulness, then Traditionalism would be stronger.

Please see my lengthy post on the matter.  +Vigano has very deliberately taking it one step at a time, seeing his mission as bringing as many with him as possible out of the Conciliar Church into Tradition.  He could "declare" the NO rites to be doubtful all he wants, but that debate has been out there for decades already and his taking a position isn't going to resolve the debate.  On the other hand, in abruptly declaring the NO rites doubtful, he would lose large number of those who are currently still "following" him.  What he's accomplished has been miraculous.  Even Taylor Marshall admitted that 80%+ (my guess was closer to 90% in watching the livestream comments) supported +Vigano against Bergoglio, with large numbers agreeing that Bergoglio is an Antipope.  So, the fact that +Vigano has been able to pull this off is a testament to his approach from the beginning.  If he had come out on day one declaring that Roncalli/Montini-Bergoglio have all been Antipopes and that the NO rites are of doubtful validity, he would have completely lost Trad, Inc. and conservative Novus Ordites to the point that they would have simply written him off as another SV kook and stopped following his thinking.  Instead, he's brought them (or most of them) step by step toward Tradition.  That's a tremendous accomplishment that no Trad has been able to pull off.  I liken him to St. Paul, who, despite his late conversion, was prepared by God to convert more souls than the other Apostles combined ... and part of his late conversion was key to his preparation for that mission by God.

How +Vigano works is that he'll take one step at a time, and with each step he also lays out the principles that will lead to the next step, many of which we've anticipated before he even made them.  If someone is in darkness, shining a full spotlight in their face will not help them see, but will instead blind them, and cause them to turn away in pain.  So the way to do it is by turning up the light little by little.  You add a little light, allow some time for their eyes to adjust, then add a little more light, let the eyes adjust, etc.  That's precisely what +Vigano is doing.  He'll take a step, then go silent for awhile to allow it to be absorbed and to sink in, and in preparation for the next step, etc.  He's using Bergoglio's own tactics against him.

Many/most Trads have already made up their minds about the status of the NO Rites, whereas the vast majority of Motarians have been assisting at Rites by these dubiously-ordained priests for decades and need to be brought along slowly, step by step.  His making a public announcement at this time will not have any persuasive effect.  I anticipate that his next move will be an explicit declaration that Roncalli/Montini - Ratzinger were also Antipopes.  You noted that he's already implicitly done so, in keeping with his tactic of making one small step explicit, while laying the groundwork for the next step.  Then he'll let that sink in among those followers from the Conciliar Church, after which I expect him to declare the NO Rites to be of doubtful validity.  If he were to do that right now, he'd only be either 1) preaching to the choir (for those who already agree that they're doubtful) or 2) would risk losing many of the Motarians who would be inclined to reject that positoin.

I don’t know the details to this answer.  But I certainly know you can’t keep silent.  You can’t pretend that your new rite Bishop-life was ok, no issues. 

The fact that some of you are still defending silence in the matter is mind-boggling. 

Prudence is very important at this point.  We do not know how many Catholic priests in the NO have jumped ship with +Vigano.  I think it is not fair to expect things to happen on the time scale we wish.  We really don't know all of the details.  Maybe the FSSP  and the ICK are getting ready to follow +Vigano.  

I think we have all been in this Crisis for so long that we want +Vigano to be a great turning point.  If we could just be a little gentler with how we treat each other (that statement is not directed at you Pax Vobis), that would be great.

My criticism is directed at +W, for following the same misguided policies/philosophy as +Fellay, which logically leads to the indult-mindset.  +Vigano isn't going to change much of anything, on this topic, I agree.  But +W, as the leader of the Resistance, could change things.

My criticism is directed at +W, for following the same misguided policies/philosophy as +Fellay, which logically leads to the indult-mindset.  +Vigano isn't going to change much of anything, on this topic, I agree.  But +W, as the leader of the Resistance, could change things.

I too wish everything was above board all the time.  I look at it as a distrust in God, but I am just a naive lay person, so what do I know.

If 200 "priests" from the FSSP and ICK follow +Vigano, but keep their conditional ordinations a secret (or maybe not even get conditionally ordained), Tradition will be worse off, in the long run.

That's not going to happen.  IF any FSSP or ICK end up following +Vigano, whatever that means, and thereby swinging to the right of the SSPX (who have distanced themselves from him), at that time it'll be taken care of.  +Vigano's approach is calculated precisely in order to try to make that happen, but it hasn't happened yet.  You're speaking about these things are if they were past tense, as if there were already 200 FSSP/ICK following +Vigano.  IF and WHEN that happens, as the saying goes, it would be a nice problem to have ... and I'm sure +Vigano will address it.  That's precisely the point, that AS OF THIS TIME (not in some hypothetical future where half of FSSP/ICK have defected and joined +Vigano), there are no practical consequences to the lack of a public declaration, since +Vigano hasn't made much use (as far as we know) of his episcopal powers.  You're jumping the gun here and putting the cart before the horse.  FSSP are FSSP precisely because they feel the need (more than +Fellay even) to be "in communion" with the V2 papal claimants, so they're probably less likely to defect directly to SVism than even those in SSPX have been.  You have an occasional priest here or there who leapfrogs from FSSP to SVism, but it's been relatively rare, and often they then seek conditional ordination from some SV bishop.  Also, it takes a significant amount of humility to suddenly admit that your own orders which you thought you had been validly exercising for years and even decades may have been all a lie.  Not many men have the intellectual honesty and humility to admit that.

If +W thinks the new rites are *generally* valid, and if +Vigano is +W's friend, why do you think +Vigano would have any different view than +W?  So far, the facts show they have the same view.  And +Vigano has MUCH MORE of a motive to consider new rites valid (similar to Fr Hesse), because it affects him personally.

You don't see how +Vigano has swung to the right of Bishop Williamson?  Bishop Williamson has never favored SVism, and yet here we have +Vigano emphatically declaring that Jorge is no pope ... and is probably a small step away from saying explicitly that Montini-Ratzinger were non-popes also (and has already implicitly done so).  So he's ALREADY taken a "different view than +W".  And despite his motives for wanting to consider the new rites valid, he did in fact receive conditional consecration from +Williamson.  That demonstrates his intellectual honesty and his humility, and he's no respecter of persons and is willing to disagree with +Williamson, just as he already has with regard to the Bergoglian Non-Papacy.  I'm actually hoping that the friendship works the other way around, where it'll help persuade Bishop Williamson to question/doubt/deny the legitimacy of Bergoglio, perhaps adopt Fr. Chazal's view rather than classic R&R.

If 200 "priests" from the FSSP and ICK follow +Vigano, but keep their conditional ordinations a secret (or maybe not even get conditionally ordained), Tradition will be worse off, in the long run.  Because then the message is:  The only difference between the indult and Tradition is -- what group you belong to.  And this couldn't be further from the truth.  There is a WIDE chasm of difference between the indult and true Tradition, starting with the sacramental rites.  If someone "converts" to Tradition, but can't admit that the new rites are doubtful (at best) or invalid (at worse), then they are watering down one of Tradition's foundational principles and aren't Trads at all.  They are making the water more murky than it already is.  They are missing the whole point of why Tradition began in the first place.

I get that. I am hoping they are currently in the process of righting all of there ordinations to come out with a bigger announcement, but part of me thinks that is only wishful thinking.  I do find it curious that people in the USA are instructed to send donations to a PO Box in Omaha, Nebraska not too far from the FSSP seminary.  Remamber +Vigano has a great skill set as a diplomat.

I don't understand this.  He's already admitted this in seeking conditional consecration from +Williamson.

No, because there are a variety of reasons to get conditional sacraments, with many of the reasons' missing the point and minimizing the new rites' dangers.  I'll repost a previous point:


Yes, I believe that +Vigano was conditionally consecrated.  But I don't know why.  And that's the problem.
1.  Was it simply for "human/personal" reasons that +Vigano wanted to be conditionally consecrated?
2.  Was it because +W told +Vigano it was "more perfect, but still not necessary"?
3.  Was it because +W expressed to +Vigano that it was only needed (in his case) because of the "bad bishop" who consecrated him?

All of these "reasons" miss the point.  None of them are based on any unchanging principles, but only circuмstantial reasons.  The ultimate reason is that canon law demands it. 


1.  It's not a personal decision to make you (or others) feel better.  You do it because Canon Law demands it.
2.  It's not "more perfect".  You do it because Canon Law demands it.
3.  It's not because an investigation found a "bad" bishop may have had an improper intention.  You do it because Canon Law demands it.

Such actions must be done/based on principles.  If not, then we're left blowing in the wind with +W's emotionally-charged outlook and this is a deterioration of Tradition.  If not based on principles, then it's all opinion vs opinion.