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Author Topic: Bp Daniel Dolan has died  (Read 23986 times)

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Offline Incredulous

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Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
« Reply #225 on: May 06, 2022, 07:59:28 AM »
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  • There's audio of a discussion between Br. Peter and someone discussing the te igitur, which is worth listening to. The basic premise is that this prayer is supposed to show unity with the chair of Peter, not the man occupying it, which is accidental.



    Let me ask, in the Canon's unity with the Seat prayer, why does the celebrant have to say the name of the heretic?

    He is in union with the Seat of Peter, not the pachamama worshiping anti-pope.


    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
    « Reply #226 on: May 06, 2022, 08:05:14 AM »
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  • Yeah, he was a Saint who made an error backing an anti-Pope.
    Thank you for pointing this out.  People quote saints all the time, yet they made mistakes.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
    « Reply #227 on: May 06, 2022, 08:10:22 AM »
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  • Let me ask, in the Canon's unity with the Seat prayer, why does the celebrant have to say the name of the heretic?

    He is in union with the Seat of Peter, not the pachamama worshiping anti-pope.

    The point is that those who are saying Mass una cuм Francesco are doing so because he is the apparent Pope. Otherwise, if a priest is a sede, he certainly is going to skip that part of the te igitur altogether. Both are offering in union with the Holy See regardless, vacant or not.

    The priest saying the Mass una cuм Francesco is the one accountable here for his error (again, presuming sedevacantism is true), but not those layfolk assisting whether they believe he is Pope or not. That's the issue here. SGG are trying to make it out that the laity are committing a grave sin in attending these Masses with the Society or Resistance, etc, who say the te igitur una cuм Francesco. Which is, I think, rightly said by Br. Peter, a schismatic attitude during this Crisis on the part of these priests and bishops as they have no authority to bind consciences.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
    « Reply #228 on: May 06, 2022, 09:07:21 AM »
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  • The list is extensive.

    Greenwood, Indiana


    With lawyers and a few pro SSPX members at his side,
    Fr. Rostand, tells the Chapel's independent Board to give the SSPX the chapel
    or they will open one down the street and put them out of business.

    As I was a parishioner at this chapel from 2009-early 2012 (the time period in which the transition from independent to SSPX commenced), I’m in a position to nuance these comments a bit:

    The resident priest (Fr. O’Connor) was preparing to retire, and the board was quite naturally actively seeking his replacement/successor.

    The SSPX was invited by the board to consider sending a priest, and through then-District Superior Fr. Rostand, at a public meeting to which all the faithful were invited to attend (and which I in fact did attend), Fr. Rostand made a presentation and fielded questions from the faithful.

    During the Q/A session, I asked whether  we would ever see Bishop Williamson back in active ministry again (ie., this was at the time when he had been sequestered to the Wimbledon attic), as a few of us were newly concerned about what this sequestration might imply for the future direction the SSPX might take.

    At a certain point in the Q/A session, Fr. Rostand declared (paraphrasing from memory) something to the effect that, “If our help is not wanted, I can take my priests and go.  There are plenty of other places looking for priests.” In other words, he did not give the impression of a corporate raider eager for a takeover of a rival.

    Anyway, the standard practice was to agree to a one-year probationary period, for each side to get to know the other, before coming to a final board vote.

    One if the conditions is that ownership of the property is transferred to the SSPX.  Absolutely, with 20-20 hindsight, one could say that had the process commenced post-2012, some would not have supported the board approval (or perhaps even the board itself would not have approved), but the point here is that whatever may or may not have transpired with independent Chapels being turned over to the SSPX elsewhere, this one happened with the overwhelming support of most of the chapel, and so far as I am aware, most of them have been happy with the results.

    Had this all happened in 2013, maybe they would have invited a Resistance priest instead (but even in that case, they would still have wanted ownership of the chapel as a condition for accepting, in order that the faithful not exercise an impertinent leverage over the priest).  I am aware some independent priest who sympathize with the Resistance might not have that precondition, but they put themselves in a precarious position.

    As for the assertion that Fr. Rostand threatened to set up shop down the road if ownership was not surrendered, I can’t disprove the veracity of that claim, but it would seem incongruous with the ready willingness to take his priests elsewhere which he exhibited at the Q/A session I attended.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
    « Reply #229 on: May 06, 2022, 09:35:56 AM »
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  • As I was a parishioner at this chapel from 2009-early 2012 (the time period in which the transition from independent to SSPX commenced), I’m in a position to nuance these comments a bit:

    The resident priest (Fr. O’Connor) was preparing to retire, and the board was quite naturally actively seeking his replacement/successor.

    The SSPX was invited by the board to consider sending a priest, and through then-District Superior Fr. Rostand, at a public meeting to which all the faithful were invited to attend (and which I in fact did attend), Fr. Rostand made a presentation and fielded questions from the faithful.

    During the Q/A session, I asked whether  we would ever see Bishop Williamson back in active ministry again (ie., this was at the time when he had been sequestered to the Wimbledon attic), as a few of us were newly concerned about what this sequestration might imply for the future direction the SSPX might take.

    At a certain point in the Q/A session, Fr. Rostand declared (paraphrasing from memory) something to the effect that, “If our help is not wanted, I can take my priests and go.  There are plenty of other places looking for priests.” In other words, he did not give the impression of a corporate raider eager for a takeover of a rival.

    Anyway, the standard practice was to agree to a one-year probationary period, for each side to get to know the other, before coming to a final board vote.

    One if the conditions is that ownership of the property is transferred to the SSPX.  Absolutely, with 20-20 hindsight, one could say that had the process commenced post-2012, some would not have supported the board approval (or perhaps even the board itself would not have approved), but the point here is that whatever may or may not have transpired with independent Chapels being turned over to the SSPX elsewhere, this one happened with the overwhelming support of most of the chapel, and so far as I am aware, most of them have been happy with the results.

    Had this all happened in 2013, maybe they would have invited a Resistance priest instead (but even in that case, they would still have wanted ownership of the chapel as a condition for accepting, in order that the faithful not exercise an impertinent leverage over the priest).  I am aware some independent priest who sympathize with the Resistance might not have that precondition, but they put themselves in a precarious position.

    As for the assertion that Fr. Rostand threatened to set up shop down the road if ownership was not surrendered, I can’t disprove the veracity of that claim, but it would seem incongruous with the ready willingness to take his priests elsewhere which he exhibited at the Q/A session I attended.

    Thanks for the input Sean.

    Were you aware of Fr. Rostand's use of lawyers in swaying the decision?
    I got it from a reliable source that letters were very intimidating.

    I will never buy the idea that Fr. Rostand was not salivating over the idea of nabbing a turn-key chapel worth $1million.
    This was a truly independent chapel and the SSPX got it for free.


    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
    « Reply #230 on: May 06, 2022, 09:51:27 AM »
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  • Here we are in 2013, with the SSPX at independent chapel in downtown Santa Clara, CA
    (This property is worth $2 million).



    The SSPX had been invited in to celebrate Mass because their regular independent priest died.

    It took a long time to get rid of them.  They tried every trick in the book to get the property. 

    They split board and then ingratiated themselves with their board allies.
    They even used the threat of withholding Sacraments, because they could not get a promise for the title to the property.

    Covid knocked out the SSPX's allies and the Board Chair quietly changed the locks on the doors, effectively banning them from the property.

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
    « Reply #231 on: May 06, 2022, 09:56:00 AM »
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  • Here we are in 2013, with the SSPX at independent chapel in downtown Santa Clara, CA
    (This property is worth $2 million).

    You know they'd sell the property in a minute and send the proceeds to one of their ill-conceived building projects (St. Mary's or the seminary).

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
    « Reply #232 on: May 06, 2022, 10:03:03 AM »
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  • Thanks for the input Sean.

    Were you aware of Fr. Rostand's use of lawyers in swaying the decision?
    I got it from a reliable source that letters were very intimidating.

    I will never buy the idea that Fr. Rostand was not salivating over the idea of nabbing a turn-key chapel worth $1million.
    This was a truly independent chapel and the SSPX got it for free.


    Hello Incred-

    There was certainly interest from the SSPX, or they would not have agreed to a probationary period (eg., With the imminent retirement of Fr. O’Connor, many of the faithful would have made their way 80 miles west to the SSPX’s LaSalette Academy, which then-principal Fr. McMahon desperately wanted to avoid, to keep it a school, and not a mission.  The SSPX also liked the central location, the existence of a rectory, and proximity to an international airport).  

    But if you’re on the SSPX side of the table, those are just practical considerations you have to make when deciding how best to utilize your priests.

    As regards the existence of threatening legal action (to compel the sale, I’m guessing?), I have no firsthand (or secondhand) knowledge of that.

    Reflecting a but more (this was all 10-12 years ago, and we haven’t had any connection to the chapel since, except a rare visit while traveling in the area 2-3 times since), I may vaguely remember that there was a bit of division because of the direction the SSPX might be heading, vis-a-vis Rome, and that in turn may have resulted in extending the probationary term for another year, but you would need to confirm that with someone else, because I’m not sure I’m remembering that correctly).

    Am I also vaguely recalling division among the board at the end of this second probationary period, but with the board majority voting to turn over ownership to the Society?

    And if that’s the case, if there was legal action on behalf of the Society to enforce the board’s decision?

    Isn't/wasn’t TKGS also a parishioner there?  He might be a better person to ask, as, aside from the info in my previous post, I’m not sure how things all ended up (ie., I left in early 2012, and would only have info after that point  which was posted on CI).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
    « Reply #233 on: May 06, 2022, 10:03:41 AM »
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  • I will never buy the idea that Fr. Rostand was not salivating over the idea of nabbing a turn-key chapel worth $1million.

    Same kind of thing is going on with Father Carley's chapel in Akron OH.  Father is really getting up there in years; I think it's a miracle that he just keeps going.  He's slowed down now where he needs a hand rail on the sanctuary steps to help him get up to the altar and to genuflect.

    In any case, he has the church building (holds about 200 and it's packed for Sunday Mass) and a school (could hold 8 grades), plus he owns a couple of nice homes adjacent to the church (well, one is nice the other a fair bit older).  In addition, it's adjacent to a country club with high-price homes on it.  Father also has substantial cash savings.  All told, I'd be surprised if the complex wouldn't be with $2-$3 million.

    But recently the SSPX moved St. Peregrine chapel from the far West side of Cleveland down to where it's fairly close to Immaculate Heart in Akron.  They're building an expensive church there (there was already a school) and I think the intent is to turn it into a priory, since they tried to extort $500K from Father Carley, telling him they wouldn't serve his chapel unless he contributed this $500K (half the cost of their priory residence).  That seems like a lot of money for a priory building, and cost of living/building isn't really that high in this part of the country.

    I'm 99.9% convinced that it is their intent to sell off Immaculate Heart the second Father Carley passes away and then just tell everyone they have to go up to St. Peregrine.  I really wish Father Carley would look into some other options, and I resigned from the Board of Trustees there rather than sign the papers handing over the chapel to SSPX.  I didn't want my name on the docuмent that sold out the chapel.

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
    « Reply #234 on: May 06, 2022, 10:13:19 AM »
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  • And St. Vincent Ferrer offered Mass while naming an Antipope.  Were his Masses also sacrilegeous?
    Just playing devil's advocate here:  Was St. Vincent Ferrer offering Mass while naming an apostate who worshipped pagan idols in his Church?

    While I do agree that the Bishop Dolan is wrong on the "una cuм" issue, I don't think this example is equivalent to the current situation.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
    « Reply #235 on: May 06, 2022, 10:25:57 AM »
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  • Just playing devil's advocate here:  Was St. Vincent Ferrer offering Mass while naming an apostate who worshipped pagan idols in his Church?

    While I do agree that the Bishop Dolan is wrong on the "una cuм" issue, I don't think this example is equivalent to the current situation.
    It doesn't matter because Benedict was not the Pope, it, by +Dolan and co.'s theory, would still constitute sacrilege. 
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
    « Reply #236 on: May 06, 2022, 11:03:21 AM »
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  • Just playing devil's advocate here:  Was St. Vincent Ferrer offering Mass while naming an apostate who worshipped pagan idols in his Church?

    While I do agree that the Bishop Dolan is wrong on the "una cuм" issue, I don't think this example is equivalent to the current situation.

    That isn't really the argument.  It's about unity with the true Church, and not so much the personal crimes of Bergoglio.

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
    « Reply #237 on: May 06, 2022, 11:05:16 AM »
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  • It doesn't matter because Benedict was not the Pope, it, by +Dolan and co.'s theory, would still constitute sacrilege.
    Neither was the man St. Vincent Ferrar said Mass "una cuм".  I'm not intending here to refute or support Bishop Dolan's theory, just noting that the argument involving St. Vincent Ferrar saying Mass while mentioning someone who is not pope is not equivalent to a priest today saying Mass while mentioning Bergoglio's stage name.

    And the "personal crimes" of Bergoglio are really not part of any sedevacantist's argument.  That one is a straw man.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
    « Reply #238 on: May 06, 2022, 11:50:34 AM »
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  • Quote
    The point is that those who are saying Mass una cuм Francesco are doing so because he is the apparent Pope. Otherwise, if a priest is a sede, he certainly is going to skip that part of the te igitur altogether. Both are offering in union with the Holy See regardless, vacant or not.
    The point of saying the pope's name is because catholic unity resides in the pope...who has a name.  The whole idea that one is agreeing with JPII/Benedict/Francis when naming them is stupid and illogical.

    Quote
    The priest saying the Mass una cuм Francesco is the one accountable here for his error (again, presuming sedevacantism is true), but not those layfolk assisting whether they believe he is Pope or not. That's the issue here. SGG are trying to make it out that the laity are committing a grave sin in attending these Masses with the Society or Resistance, etc, who say the te igitur una cuм Francesco. Which is, I think, rightly said by Br. Peter, a schismatic attitude during this Crisis on the part of these priests and bishops as they have no authority to bind consciences.
    The "una cuм" issue is only a sin if you KNOW that the person you mention is an anti-pope.  For example, if you were living in the days of Pope St Pius X and you went to a priest for mass who openly stated he was praying in union with some random "pope michael".  This would be schism.


    No priest who mentions JPII/Benedict/Francis is schismatic because the matter is not settled and no one can definitively say that these men aren't popes (even in the temporal/govt sense only).  NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE.  This is why St Vincent Ferrer wasn't wrong or any other saint who lived through a papal crisis in history (of which there have been many).  They aren't wrong because IT'S UNCLEAR. 

    If things are unclear and the intent is to pray for the Holy Father then there is no schism.  The intent of schism must be present for there to be sin.  No Trad has/can prove sedevacantism 100% so the "una cuм" controversy is an uncharitable, divisive, colossal nothing burger.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
    « Reply #239 on: May 06, 2022, 12:10:43 PM »
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  • If things are unclear and the intent is to pray for the Holy Father then there is no schism.  The intent of schism must be present for there to be sin.  No Trad has/can prove sedevacantism 100% so the "una cuм" controversy is an uncharitable, divisive, colossal nothing burger.
    I often wonder if there was an implicit desire to funnel more sede-leaning trads to non una cuм chapels to bolster their coffers (knowing that trads are generally more generous with their tithes). I'm only speculating here, it most likely isn't the case.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]