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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: joe17 on April 26, 2022, 06:19:04 PM

Title: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: joe17 on April 26, 2022, 06:19:04 PM
Dear All,
 In your charity, please remember in your prayers the soul of Bishop Daniel Dolan.
 He died earlier today. 
 He was ordained by Archbishop Lefebvre in 1976 and consecrated by Bishop Pivarunas in 1991.  He was based at St Gertrude the great near Cincinnati.

 May his soul rest in peace.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: ElwinRansom1970 on April 26, 2022, 06:20:48 PM
Requiem aeternam dona ei Domine et lux perpetuam luceat ei. Requiescat in pace. Amen.
:pray:
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on April 26, 2022, 06:21:34 PM
Wow.  What happened?

:pray:
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: joe17 on April 26, 2022, 06:35:31 PM
Not sure of timeline. News was let out a little over an hour ago. He tweeted around 6:30 this morning on Our Lady of Good Counsel. Only thing I heard besides is they believe to have found him 2hrs after death. Believe there will be an autopsy.
 Reminder to us all. We do not necessarily see it coming.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on April 26, 2022, 06:53:31 PM
:pray::pray::pray: He was always very kind to me. May his soul rest in peace.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Minnesota on April 26, 2022, 06:57:00 PM
What a tremendous and very sudden loss... as many have said, he had just presided over Holy Week ceremonies two weeks ago.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: DigitalLogos on April 26, 2022, 07:17:02 PM
:incense::pray:
RIP
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: epiphany on April 26, 2022, 07:27:35 PM
:pray::pray::pray: He was always very kind to me. May his soul rest in peace.
He was VERY kind to my family, as well.
May he rest in peace.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Nadir on April 26, 2022, 07:28:38 PM
:pray:
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: clarkaim on April 26, 2022, 07:36:43 PM
man what a loss. My family went to see him 2 years ago.  Went to mass and spent some time with him after mass.  he gave us chocolate cake.  my thoughts were that he was such a kind and charming man.  I expect my family and I will try to attend his funeral.  God rest his soul.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Prayerful on April 26, 2022, 07:41:58 PM
+Dolan invoked his Irish heritage often so

Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam. 
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: gladius_veritatis on April 26, 2022, 07:43:15 PM
+ Requiescat in pace +
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on April 26, 2022, 07:56:12 PM
:'( :pray:
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Mark 79 on April 26, 2022, 08:02:52 PM
Requiem aeternam dona ei Domine et lux perpetuam luceat ei. Requiescat in pace. Amen. :pray:
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: SimpleMan on April 26, 2022, 08:37:18 PM
My father liked him.  My parents and I went to SGG one time while traveling and Bishop Dolan celebrated the Mass that evening.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: DigitalLogos on April 26, 2022, 08:54:39 PM
https://novusordowatch.org/2022/04/bishop-daniel-dolan-rip/
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Marion on April 26, 2022, 09:09:51 PM
.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Minnesota on April 26, 2022, 10:22:24 PM
https://twitter.com/dolan_bp/status/1518917015867695104?s=20&t=wjTdoelKaHVh2bXblczwJA

And he was supposed to be part of the ordination of several priests next week...
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Stubborn on April 27, 2022, 04:30:51 AM
:pray:
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on April 27, 2022, 04:34:21 AM
https://novusordowatch.org/2022/04/bishop-daniel-dolan-rip/
As I posted at NOW, today also happens to be the anniversary of the death of Father Joseph Collins. 

Please keep him in your prayers as well.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on April 27, 2022, 07:04:46 AM
https://twitter.com/dolan_bp/status/1518917015867695104?s=20&t=wjTdoelKaHVh2bXblczwJA

And he was supposed to be part of the ordination of several priests next week...

And Bishop Dolan was posting about Our Lady of Good Counsel on April 26, the day he passed away.  So it must have been very sudden:  a heart attack?
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Motorede on April 27, 2022, 09:26:48 AM
Did he get the vaxx? That's what I immediately think of when I hear about sudden deaths these days. 
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: compline on April 27, 2022, 09:40:48 AM
Did he get the vaxx? That's what I immediately think of when I hear about sudden deaths these days.
Someone at Novus Ordo Watch asked the same question. Among the answers:
       He was staunchly against it.
           He said that it was a mortal sin to take the vaxx.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on April 27, 2022, 11:17:28 AM
Someone at Novus Ordo Watch asked the same question. Among the answers:
      He was staunchly against it.
          He said that it was a mortal sin to take the vaxx.

He in fact issued some statements excoriating Bishop Sanborn for being soft on the jab issue ... and I agreed with him.  I did not agree with his condemnation of sedeprivationism as basically heretical (that was going too far).
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Matthew on April 27, 2022, 11:33:45 AM
No one has mentioned this yet but...

It wasn't that long ago that Fr. Cekada died. Now BOTH Bp. Dolan and Fr. Cekada of "Dolan and Cekada" fame have passed away, within a very short time of each other.

Most CI members weren't here back in 2009, but in that year CI was "All SGG, all the time".
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: gladius_veritatis on April 27, 2022, 11:42:13 AM
It wasn't that long ago that Fr. Cekada died. Now BOTH Bp. Dolan and Fr. Cekada of "Dolan and Cekada" fame have passed away, within a very short time of each other.

+ Requiescant in pace +
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on April 27, 2022, 11:49:42 AM
No one has mentioned this yet but...

It wasn't that long ago that Fr. Cekada died. Now BOTH Bp. Dolan and Fr. Cekada of "Dolan and Cekada" fame have passed away, within a very short time of each other.

Most CI members weren't here back in 2009, but in that year CI was "All SGG, all the time".

Yes, I do wonder what'll become of SGG without any senior leadership around, just younger priests left.  With each passing generation of Traditional priest that didn't have to "fight the good fight" shortly after V2, we lose a little something.  We see that happening in the SSPX as they turn over from the "old guard" to the "new".
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Minnesota on April 27, 2022, 11:56:17 AM
Yes, I do wonder what'll become of SGG without any senior leadership around, just younger priests left.
Good question. This is where the seminary moving within a 2 hr flight of SGG (Eastern Pennsylvania) is an unintentionally good move.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Matthew on April 27, 2022, 12:08:05 PM
+ Requiescant in pace +

I certainly had you in mind -- how could I not? You were a major player in "that thread". Some might even say the star of that thread...

Let's just say you've changed, moved on, or something. A person reading that thread in '09 would not expect what I quoted, above, in this particular situation.

What can I say? It's a good thing.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on April 27, 2022, 04:06:34 PM
No one has mentioned this yet but...

It wasn't that long ago that Fr. Cekada died. Now BOTH Bp. Dolan and Fr. Cekada of "Dolan and Cekada" fame have passed away, within a very short time of each other.


Yes, between Father Collins, Father Cekada, and Bishop Dolan, it's been a rough few years.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on April 27, 2022, 04:09:15 PM
Yes, I do wonder what'll become of SGG without any senior leadership around, just younger priests left.  With each passing generation of Traditional priest that didn't have to "fight the good fight" shortly after V2, we lose a little something.  We see that happening in the SSPX as they turn over from the "old guard" to the "new".
Same here.  I wonder whether Bishop Pivarunas will play a part.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Emile on April 27, 2022, 05:42:23 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/NGmX07V.png)
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on April 27, 2022, 06:11:19 PM
Yes, between Father Collins, Father Cekada, and Bishop Dolan, it's been a rough few years.

We've also had a few SSPX priests pass away ... Fr. Daniel Cooper, Fr. Dominique Bourmaud.  Also, my younger brother passed away at the age of 48.  I have this feeling that people are passing away due to what's coming to the world soon.

When I was at STAS in Minnesota, there was a cemetery for Dominicans down at the base of the hill, and we'd visit there from time to time to pray for the departed.  I noticed one time on the grave stones that a LOT of them passed away in the 1960s, and what's more, many of them were relatively young ... in their 30s and 40s.  I bet a lot of them passed away to spare them from the New Mass.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: DigitalLogos on April 27, 2022, 06:19:27 PM
We've also had a few SSPX priests pass away ... Fr. Daniel Cooper, Fr. Dominique Bourmaud.  Also, my younger brother passed away at the age of 48.  I have this feeling that people are passing away due to what's coming to the world soon.

When I was at STAS in Minnesota, there was a cemetery for Dominicans down at the base of the hill, and we'd visit there from time to time to pray for the departed.  I noticed one time on the grave stones that a LOT of them passed away in the 1960s, and what's more, many of them were relatively young ... in their 30s and 40s.  I bet a lot of them passed away to spare them from the New Mass.
That could be the case.
This strangely correlates to an excerpt I posted as a separate thread of a prophetic sermon from Savonarola:
Quote
The second is propter absumptionem [On account of the removal] of the good and the just. Whenever God takes away the holy and the good, say that the scourge is near. This can be proved: when God wanted to send the Flood, He removed Noe and his family [Gen. 6]. Item, He rescued Lot from Sodom when He wanted to burn it [Gen. 19]. Consider how many men can be found nowadays whom you can call just and good, and so, say that the scourge is near and that the wrath and the sword of God has moved.

Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: epiphany on April 27, 2022, 06:27:56 PM
 We see that happening in the SSPX as they turn over from the "old guard" to the "new".
Indeed.

Recently my child was in a bad accident.  We are an outpost for the SSPX, so they weren't around to administer extreme unction, nor willing to fly out.

Called the FSSP and they refused, sending me to the the local NO.

I hesitated, but thought, "in dire emergency..."  so I called the local NO.  We had NEVER been to that church.  Within 2 hours a priest was here, no questions asked.

I have been disgusted with the sspx and fssp since.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on April 27, 2022, 06:49:46 PM
Indeed.

Recently my child was in a bad accident.  We are an outpost for the SSPX, so they weren't around to administer extreme unction, nor willing to fly out.

Called the FSSP and they refused, sending me to the the local NO.

I hesitated, but thought, "in dire emergency..."  so I called the local NO.  We had NEVER been to that church.  Within 2 hours a priest was here, no questions asked.

I have been disgusted with the sspx and fssp since.

It was not like that with the old SSPX.  I had an issue myself, and Father Bourmaud, God rest his soul, offered to fly out personally.  I had access to other priests, but was deeply moved by the offer.

Recently, when my brother was dying, Father Jenkins and Father Greenwell of SSPV drove to his house to give him Last Rites and Confession ... even though he had never attended their chapel but an independent SSPX chapel instead.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Marion on April 27, 2022, 07:55:38 PM
I have this feeling that people are passing away due to what's coming to the world soon.

Why? Maybe you woke up late, but all the world is like it was all the time ever since Adam. The only difference now: The Lord will come really soon. The peg was removed, taken out of the way (Is 22:21-25, 2 Thess 2:7).
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on April 27, 2022, 09:22:38 PM
Why? Maybe you woke up late, but all the world is like it was all the time ever since Adam. The only difference now: The Lord will come really soon. The peg was removed, taken out of the way (Is 22:21-25, 2 Thess 2:7).

So the world is the same as it ever was but the Lord will come soon?  That's a contradiction.  If you think it isn't as bad now as it was in the days of Noah, then I don't know what world you're living in.  I believe there's some private relvation where Our Lady says that it's worse now than in the days of Noah.  When exactly has such a Crisis as this one every struck the Church?  Nothing even compares.  And we're probably headed into the gauntlet here soon, with additional plagues, famine (engineered food shortages), and probably serious weather.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Incredulous on April 27, 2022, 10:20:51 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/NGmX07V.png)
Thanks for posting the obseques Emile!  
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: josefamenendez on April 28, 2022, 01:50:19 AM
I ju st started listening to “What Catholics Believe” with Fr Jenkins. He referred to Bishop Dolan as “Father” Dolan  and opened up the possibility  that the  Bishop’s heart attack may have been a vaxx reaction. 
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/what-catholics-believe/id1458896526?i=1000558926972
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: DigitalLogos on April 28, 2022, 03:38:49 AM
I ju st started listening to “What Catholics Believe” with Fr Jenkins. He referred to Bishop Dolan as “Father” Dolan  and opened up the possibility  that the  Bishop’s heart attack may have been a vaxx reaction.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/what-catholics-believe/id1458896526?i=1000558926972
Fr. Jenkins is of the opinion that the Thuc consecrations are invalid, hence why he doesn't refer to Bp. Dolan as a bishop.

As for it being jab-related: wasn't Bp. Dolan adamantly against the jabs? Why would he have received it if that were the case?
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: josefamenendez on April 28, 2022, 05:03:56 AM
I have no idea why . Listen to the first few minutes of the podcast . It’s there
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on April 28, 2022, 05:06:49 AM
I just started listening to “What Catholics Believe” with Fr Jenkins. He referred to Bishop Dolan as “Father” Dolan  and opened up the possibility  that the  Bishop’s heart attack may have been a vaxx reaction.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/what-catholics-believe/id1458896526?i=1000558926972
Yes, I listened to that as well.  Fr Jenkins clearly was not aware of the Bishop's staunch anti-jab position.  He should have checked on that and reported that before suggesting that he might have died from the jab.

And PS....no one knows it was a heart attack.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Incredulous on April 28, 2022, 05:16:43 AM
I ju st started listening to “What Catholics Believe” with Fr Jenkins. He referred to Bishop Dolan as “Father” Dolan  and opened up the possibility  that the  Bishop’s heart attack may have been a vaxx reaction.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/what-catholics-believe/id1458896526?i=1000558926972

Wouldn't you think there'd be a little class among the warring trad factions, to hold one's tongue, before we bury our Holy religious ? :facepalm:


On this forum, we prayed a 54-Day Novena to Our Lady of Pompeii for an intention, Bishop Dolan had formulated:

"For the families of all nations, torn apart by the wounds of sin, to be spared from the communist covid revolution."


No trad talking head, no trad Bishop in the world, had the discernment to pen such a truthful invocation.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on April 28, 2022, 05:20:17 AM
Wouldn't you think there'd be a little class among the warring trad factions, to hold one's tongue, before we bury our Holy religious ? :facepalm:


On this forum, we prayed a 54-Day Novena to Our Lady of Pompeii for an intention, Bishop Dolan had formulated:

"For the families of all nations, torn apart by the wounds of sin, to be spared from the communist covid revolution."


No trad talking head, no trad Bishop in the world, had the discernment to pen such a truthful invocation.

Yes, you would think.  His comments angered me.  I appreciate that here at CI people have held their tongues.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: DigitalLogos on April 28, 2022, 05:28:31 AM
Wouldn't you think there'd be a little class among the warring trad factions, to hold one's tongue, before we bury our Holy religious ? :facepalm:


On this forum, we prayed a 54-Day Novena to Our Lady of Pompeii for an intention, Bishop Dolan had formulated:

"For the families of all nations, torn apart by the wounds of sin, to be spared from the communist covid revolution."


No trad talking head, no trad Bishop in the world, had the discernment to pen such a truthful invocation.

And it worked. Recall that the covid nonsense started loosening significantly right after the novena ended and the omicron variant suddenly emerged to give most people natural immunity. I don't believe in coincidence.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on April 28, 2022, 06:52:45 AM
Yes, I listened to that as well.  Fr Jenkins clearly was not aware of the Bishop's staunch anti-jab position.  He should have checked on that and reported that before suggesting that he might have died from the jab.

And PS....no one knows it was a heart attack.

Well, perhaps Father Jenkins does have some information that it was a heart attack.  He's probably well connected with varous priests he would know.  It certainly makes sense given how sudden it was and that Bishop Dolan was Tweeting on the day he passed away.  So I wouldn't say that "no one" knows.  I'm sure that some people do know.

As for their position on the CMRI and the Thuc line, that was the main reason I stopped associating with the SSPV many years back.  While they're entitled to their opinion, I felt that they had crossed the line over into being uncharitable.  I used to help with the production of "What Catholics Believe" (when it was on cable TV) ... and also answered phone calls from viewers during the show.  But they had one episode in which they were very uncharitably ridiculing Bishop McKenna, making fun of some of the exorcisms he had performed, and that's when I decided I didn't really feel at home there.  I also feel that they're crossing a line in terms of trying to impose their opinion of the +Thuc line and CMRI onto the consciences of others.  They could warn people that they thought they were jeopardizing their souls by receiving Sacraments from the +Thuc line, and try to persuade them, but that's as far as they can go.  They have no authority to bind consciences.

I'm surprised he even referred to him as "Father" Dolan, since the SSPV have long promoted the "One Hand Dan" nonsense, but I think that may have been more Bishop Kelly.  Bishop Kelly would conditionally confirm people who had been confirmed by Bishop Williamson, who had been part of the same 1976 "one-handed" ordination class.

Apart from that, however, I have nothing but praise for Father Jenkins as a priest.  He visited my dying brother to hear his Confession even though he had never attended his chapel there.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Pax Vobis on April 28, 2022, 10:03:32 AM
He could have died from a heart attack, but i'd be shocked if he got the jab.  That would make no sense whatsoever.  +Dolan has been against covid since the get-go in 2020.  Fr Jenkins' chapel is less than 30 minutes away from +Dolan's chapel...why would he make such a comment?  The mystery of Trad cινιℓ ωαrs will never cease to amaze me...
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Minnesota on April 28, 2022, 10:25:28 AM
He could have died from a heart attack, but i'd be shocked if he got the jab.  That would make no sense whatsoever.  +Dolan has been against covid since the get-go in 2020.  Fr Jenkins' chapel is less than 30 minutes away from +Dolan's chapel...why would he make such a comment?  The mystery of Trad cινιℓ ωαrs will never cease to amaze me...
You have to feel bad for the Protestant converts... They leave one unstable place to end up in another.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on April 28, 2022, 11:18:13 AM
He could have died from a heart attack, but i'd be shocked if he got the jab.

Well, he was 70 years old, and it's not unheard-of for 70-year-olds to have heart attacks.  It's not like a 25-year-old top-tier athlete dropping dead of a sudden heart attack.  I knew a guy in his mid-40s who had a heart attack ... who didn't appear to be in terrible shape.  I think that the public speculation by Father Jenkins that it may be jab-related simply because it was (likely) a heart attack is rather irresponsible ... especiall given that the topic of that broadcast dealt with detraction and calumny.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on April 28, 2022, 11:22:05 AM
Fr Jenkins' chapel is less than 30 minutes away from +Dolan's chapel...why would he make such a comment?  The mystery of Trad cινιℓ ωαrs will never cease to amaze me...

I don't think it was said with hostile intent.  It sounded just as if he was thinking out loud.  I've heard from my mother, who attends Father Jenkins' chapel in Parma, OH, that quite a few people have died of jab-related causes down at his chapel and academy in Cincinnati, despite his preaching against it.  So perhaps it was just at the front of his mind, and he made a mistake by speculating out loud about it.  Generally, whenever I hear of someone dying of a heart attack these days, my mind also immediately turns to wondering whether the person had received the jab.  Father simply made a mistake by thinking out loud about it.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Pax Vobis on April 28, 2022, 11:40:09 AM
Quote
I don't think it was said with hostile intent.
I hope not...but with him calling Bishop Dolan, "Father", one has to wonder.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on April 28, 2022, 11:49:56 AM
Well, perhaps Father Jenkins does have some information that it was a heart attack.  He's probably well connected with varous priests he would know.  It certainly makes sense given how sudden it was and that Bishop Dolan was Tweeting on the day he passed away.  So I wouldn't say that "no one" knows.  I'm sure that some people do know.

As for their position on the CMRI and the Thuc line, that was the main reason I stopped associating with the SSPV many years back.  While they're entitled to their opinion, I felt that they had crossed the line over into being uncharitable.  I used to help with the production of "What Catholics Believe" (when it was on cable TV) ... and also answered phone calls from viewers during the show.  But they had one episode in which they were very uncharitably ridiculing Bishop McKenna, making fun of some of the exorcisms he had performed, and that's when I decided I didn't really feel at home there.  I also feel that they're crossing a line in terms of trying to impose their opinion of the +Thuc line and CMRI onto the consciences of others.  They could warn people that they thought they were jeopardizing their souls by receiving Sacraments from the +Thuc line, and try to persuade them, but that's as far as they can go.  They have no authority to bind consciences.

I'm surprised he even referred to him as "Father" Dolan, since the SSPV have long promoted the "One Hand Dan" nonsense, but I think that may have been more Bishop Kelly.  Bishop Kelly would conditionally confirm people who had been confirmed by Bishop Williamson, who had been part of the same 1976 "one-handed" ordination class.

Apart from that, however, I have nothing but praise for Father Jenkins as a priest.  He visited my dying brother to hear his Confession even though he had never attended his chapel there.
If he's got those connections then he'd also know how anti jab he was.....

They are doing an autopsy.  Unless those results have been communicated then no one knows for sure that he died of a heart attack.

Listen..outside of his Thuc position I have nothing but praise for Fr Jenkins.  I have enjoyed his shows and I believe he's one of our best priests. However his comments regarding Bishop Dolan's death were ...less than stellar.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on April 28, 2022, 11:53:33 AM
Well, he was 70 years old, and it's not unheard-of for 70-year-olds to have heart attacks.  It's not like a 25-year-old top-tier athlete dropping dead of a sudden heart attack.  I knew a guy in his mid-40s who had a heart attack ... who didn't appear to be in terrible shape.  I think that the public speculation by Father Jenkins that it may be jab-related simply because it was (likely) a heart attack is rather irresponsible ... especiall given that the topic of that broadcast dealt with detraction and calumny.
Agree 100%. 
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on April 28, 2022, 11:59:08 AM
If he's got those connections then he'd also know how anti jab he was.....

I doubt that Father Jenkins kept up with all of Bishop Dolan's various theological positions or statements.  He's probaby too busy himself to keep up with everything every priest out there thinks or says about some subject ... unless somehow it impacts his own chapels.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Incredulous on April 28, 2022, 12:07:19 PM
You have to feel bad for the Protestant converts... They leave one unstable place to end up in another.

Yeah, how to explain the Novus ordo mass mania schism and the internecine trad wars to them :facepalm:


Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: DigitalLogos on April 28, 2022, 12:13:40 PM
Yeah, how to explain the Novus ordo mass mania schism and the internecine trad wars to them :facepalm:
As a convert from atheism followed by perennialism, I have my days where I wonder at just what I got myself into :laugh1:

(https://c.tenor.com/9ud1r4sc-QQAAAAM/confused-john-travolta.gif)
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Incredulous on April 28, 2022, 12:23:09 PM
Agree 100%.

The first thought that crossed my mind was that Bishop Dolan was murdered.

Why?

Because he’s been “on-the-money” about covid.  He also accelerated his ordination schedule, knowing the general genocide threat to the remnant faithful.

In other words, he was doing what trad Bishops should be doing:  

Speaking-out, educating his flock and getting them a secure means for the Sacraments!

Why is it that most trad Bishops have become passive or are in the stealth mode?

This week, the Church honored it’s 3rd martyr Pope St. Cletus, who gave it all for his sheep.

More than ever, we need more selfless Bishops who are men of spiritual action.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on April 28, 2022, 12:44:28 PM
Because he’s been “on-the-money” about covid.  He also accelerated his ordination schedule, knowing the general genocide threat to the remnant faithful.

In other words, he was doing what trad Bishops should be doing: 

Speaking-out, educating his flock and getting them a secure means for the Sacraments!

Right.  I think we're nearing times when public Masses will not be available and we'll be in catacombs mode.  For all we know, they'll round up all the known priests, so it wouldn't be a bad idea to have an underground network.  We know that this is ultimately a Satanic plot and they desire more than anything the loss of souls, so I'm sure that depriving the faithful of Sacraments is toward the top of their agenda.  They piloted that earlier in closing down all the churches, where many of the faithful missed Easter Sunday due to the restrictions.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Minnesota on April 28, 2022, 01:16:59 PM
Right.  I think we're nearing times when public Masses will not be available and we'll be in catacombs mode.  For all we know, they'll round up all the known priests, so it wouldn't be a bad idea to have an underground network.  We know that this is ultimately a Satanic plot and they desire more than anything the loss of souls, so I'm sure that depriving the faithful of Sacraments is toward the top of their agenda.  They piloted that earlier in closing down all the churches, where many of the faithful missed Easter Sunday due to the restrictions.
And also: the traditionalist groups have to consecrate more bishops. Some of them are waiting far too long.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: SimpleMan on April 28, 2022, 01:30:52 PM
If he's got those connections then he'd also know how anti jab he was.....

They are doing an autopsy.  Unless those results have been communicated then no one knows for sure that he died of a heart attack.

Listen..outside of his Thuc position I have nothing but praise for Fr Jenkins.  I have enjoyed his shows and I believe he's one of our best priests. However his comments regarding Bishop Dolan's death were ...less than stellar.
Not trying to be cute or pedantic, but unless someone is vaporized instantly with a nuclear blast or some such, all deaths are heart attacks.

People die suddenly at all different ages, for all different reasons.  I have had several high school classmates who have died.  Sometimes you get in your 30s or 40s, and boom! - you're gone.  The part of the country I'm from, drug abuse is a lifestyle accessory for many, and that'll do it too.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on April 28, 2022, 02:38:14 PM
I doubt that Father Jenkins kept up with all of Bishop Dolan's various theological positions or statements.  He's probaby too busy himself to keep up with everything every priest out there thinks or says about some subject ... unless somehow it impacts his own chapels.
My point was if he knows he has a heart attack because he's "well connected" as you suggested earlier, then those connections should also know or could have easily found out what his position was on the jab. 

Sorry, I'm not buying the ignorance excuse. And if his death doesn't impact his own chapels somehow, he should have kept quiet until he had all the facts.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on April 28, 2022, 03:13:27 PM
The first thought that crossed my mind was that Bishop Dolan was murdered.

Why?

Because he’s been “on-the-money” about covid.  He also accelerated his ordination schedule, knowing the general genocide threat to the remnant faithful.

In other words, he was doing what trad Bishops should be doing: 

Speaking-out, educating his flock and getting them a secure means for the Sacraments!

Why is it that most trad Bishops have become passive or are in the stealth mode?

This week, the Church honored it’s 3rd martyr Pope St. Cletus, who gave it all for his sheep.

More than ever, we need more selfless Bishops who are men of spiritual action.
It wasn't my first thought, but I admit the thought had crossed my mind too, and I don't typically go there.

As for the bolded?  Good question.  Perhaps it should have its own thread.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on April 28, 2022, 03:37:29 PM
My point was if he knows he has a heart attack because he's "well connected" as you suggested earlier, then those connections should also know or could have easily found out what his position was on the jab. 

Sorry, I'm not buying the ignorance excuse. And if his death doesn't impact his own chapels somehow, he should have kept quiet until he had all the facts.

Well, charity requires that we put the best possible interpretations on other people's actions.  And there's a difference between learning about a dramatic even such as Bishop Dolan's death and keeping up with the day to day soap opera at all other chapels when you're busy with your own.  He's well connected enough to hear about the heart attack without necessarily being in constant contact with people to know what Bishop Dolan said about the jab.  It's not that difficult to believe.

I know people at other chapels where if something dramatic happened, I could call them to ask, but I don't keep in regular contact with them and don't know where their priests stand on various issues.

And I already said that Father Jenkins made a mistake in speculating publicly about it, so I'm not sure why you're directing that comment to me.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Simeon on April 28, 2022, 04:26:18 PM
You have to feel bad for the Protestant converts... They leave one unstable place to end up in another.
I've been thinking about this for two days. Perhaps our God has given us civil-warring traditionalists a shot across the bow. I think the civil-warring clergy have received a Divine warning that God is fed up with them. The whole world is falling apart and all our clergy do is fling paper airplanes at each other. It is impossible that Fr. Jenkins does not know about the absolute and uncategorical stance of BISHOP Dolan; for Bishop Dolan has been the one and only traditionalist clergyman to call the vaccine spade a filthy, dirty mortal sin. That was controversial, and Fr. Jenkins feeds on controversy. Furthermore Bp. Dolan was preaching against the vaccine for two straight years. It's impossible that Fr. Jenkins doesn't know this. 

What Fr. Jenkins did in his broadcast is reprehensible. And normally I like him and enjoy his show. But it was truly below the belt Tuesday night. He owes Bp. Dolan (RIP) and SGG an apology.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Simeon on April 28, 2022, 04:38:04 PM
I'll say one other thing. I literally winced when I heard what Fr. Jenkins said. My gut reaction was that Bp. Dolan's good name and reputation were being smeared. That man worked so hard to convince people not to believe the hoax and not to take the jab. In a sense, he placed his entire priesthood on the line, and therefore his own good name and reputation. 

Fr. Jenkins has a duty in justice to repair; and I am going to confide in his well known integrity, that when this is brought to his attention, he will make a public correction, which is all we can ask from him. 
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on April 28, 2022, 05:01:12 PM
What Fr. Jenkins did in his broadcast is reprehensible. And normally I like him and enjoy his show. But it was truly below the belt Tuesday night. He owes Bp. Dolan (RIP) and SGG an apology.

Ironically, the main topic for the show was detraction and calumny.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Jr1991 on April 28, 2022, 05:45:23 PM
I'll say one other thing. I literally winced when I heard what Fr. Jenkins said. My gut reaction was that Bp. Dolan's good name and reputation were being smeared. That man worked so hard to convince people not to believe the hoax and not to take the jab. In a sense, he placed his entire priesthood on the line, and therefore his own good name and reputation.

Fr. Jenkins has a duty in justice to repair; and I am going to confide in his well known integrity, that when this is brought to his attention, he will make a public correction, which is all we can ask from him.

I agree. Sadly this is too often seen in many Trad circles. The lack of charity is sometimes incredible, from calumny to closing chapels, lying to the flock stealing their money, and sɛҳuąƖ abuse. It's sad.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on April 28, 2022, 05:59:06 PM
I've been thinking about this for two days. Perhaps our God has given us civil-warring traditionalists a shot across the bow. I think the civil-warring clergy have received a Divine warning that God is fed up with them. The whole world is falling apart and all our clergy do is fling paper airplanes at each other. It is impossible that Fr. Jenkins does not know about the absolute and uncategorical stance of BISHOP Dolan; for Bishop Dolan has been the one and only traditionalist clergyman to call the vaccine spade a filthy, dirty mortal sin. That was controversial, and Fr. Jenkins feeds on controversy. Furthermore Bp. Dolan was preaching against the vaccine for two straight years. It's impossible that Fr. Jenkins doesn't know this.

What Fr. Jenkins did in his broadcast is reprehensible. And normally I like him and enjoy his show. But it was truly below the belt Tuesday night. He owes Bp. Dolan (RIP) and SGG an apology.
And....if I'm remembering correctly....Fr Jenkins, at least at one time, was not completely against the jab.  Yeah, the more I think on this, the more angry I get.

Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Minnesota on April 28, 2022, 06:04:29 PM
And....if I'm remembering correctly....Fr Jenkins, at least at one time, was not completely against the jab.  Yeah, the more I think on this, the more angry I get.
It was also mere hours after he died. There is speaking ill of the dead and then there's that.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Jr1991 on April 28, 2022, 06:05:25 PM
I think many traditional priests are going to end up in hell. The world is falling into the abyss, and they won't cooperate to make the sacrament available to the faithful. This is especially true of the Neo-SSPX. Who are busy building monuments, totally oblivious to the situation?
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Donachie on April 28, 2022, 06:29:42 PM
For some reason I associate "Credamus omni tempore" and "Deus det nobis suam pacem", which are from the Veni Creator and the prayers at meals, with prayers for the deceased, etc.



Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: DigitalLogos on April 28, 2022, 07:49:11 PM
I think many traditional priests are going to end up in hell. The world is falling into the abyss, and they won't cooperate to make the sacrament available to the faithful. This is especially true of the Neo-SSPX. Who are busy building monuments, totally oblivious to the situation?
I won't go as far as to say the individual priests of the Neo-SSPX are wholly ignorant of the needs of the faithful, but it's clear that the mission has shifted to one of complacency with Rome. We've discussed it on here before, but they really should alter the structure of the Society to assign priests to specific areas, like a parish priest, rather than having them clustered in one central location and traveling all over. Really limiting their availability.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: bodeens on April 28, 2022, 08:32:07 PM
While they're entitled to their opinion, I felt that they had crossed the line over into being uncharitable.  I used to help with the production of "What Catholics Believe" (when it was on cable TV) ... and also answered phone calls from viewers during the show.  But they had one episode in which they were very uncharitably ridiculing Bishop McKenna, making fun of some of the exorcisms he had performed, and that's when I decided I didn't really feel at home there.  I also feel that they're crossing a line in terms of trying to impose their opinion of the +Thuc line and CMRI onto the consciences of others.  They could warn people that they thought they were jeopardizing their souls by receiving Sacraments from the +Thuc line, and try to persuade them, but that's as far as they can go.  They have no authority to bind consciences.

I'm surprised he even referred to him as "Father" Dolan, since the SSPV have long promoted the "One Hand Dan" nonsense, but I think that may have been more Bishop Kelly.  Bishop Kelly would conditionally confirm people who had been confirmed by Bishop Williamson, who had been part of the same 1976 "one-handed" ordination class.

Apart from that, however, I have nothing but praise for Father Jenkins as a priest.  He visited my dying brother to hear his Confession even though he had never attended his chapel there.
God Bless you Lad, I appreciate your consistency here. I heard one ep where Fr. Jenkins called +Sanborn "Father" and it left a bad taste. I'm not even going to bother listening to the latest ep, they've lost a listener until Father Jenkins walks this back (I think he will, as I believe he is a Catholic). I sincerely hope the stupid Thuc controversy will drop after +Kelly is dead (I am not wishing death on him or anything of the sort, I just sincerely hope this is old-man drama that will die with the 9 and everyone moves on afterward) because this, like dogmatic anti una-cuм, is diabolical and is not helping anyone. The SSPV people I talk to will pray with Thuc line friends, I don't think any of the laity want this old-man drama. 

I disagree with +Dolan on a lot of positions but he has been one of the warriors for God in this deception, simple as. He got sacraments to people when they actually needed them and did not capitulate on the vaccine or other matters and called a novena that potentially changed the course of history.  We absolutely need an autopsy, +Dolan was on the assuredly on the radar. 

I won't go as far as to say the individual priests of the Neo-SSPX are wholly ignorant of the needs of the faithful, but it's clear that the mission has shifted to one of complacency with Rome. We've discussed it on here before, but they really should alter the structure of the Society to assign priests to specific areas, like a parish priest, rather than having them clustered in one central location and traveling all over. Really limiting their availability.
During the COVID hoax this created a sacramental crisis as well: Priests unable to travel long distances and being cut-off from laity they serve. The window of opportunity for giving EU is so small. Getting a priest into a nursing home on minute's notice because one person will allow someone in the building etc, it's just not right and I imagine individual priests aren't a fan of this.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: SeanJohnson on April 28, 2022, 09:04:00 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/NGmX07V.png)

Pontifical???

Who’s the bishop?

Odd he isn’t named.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: moneil on April 29, 2022, 02:09:02 AM

Quote
Pontifical???

Who’s the bishop?

Odd he isn’t named.
It would be odd for there not to be pontifical rites for a deceased bishop.  They are perhaps still determining which bishop will preside (or looking for one).


One doubts that Bishops Clarence Kelly or Markus Ramolla would be candidates.  One thinks of Bishop Mark Pivarunas, CMRI as he consecrated Bishop Dolan, and Bishop Donald Sanborn also comes to mind.  Though they had their differences Bishops Dolan and Sanborn had their collaborations and Bishop Sanborn might see it as an opportunity to expand his "turf" so-to-speak.  There is also Bishop Joseph Selway, for whom Bishop Dolan was a co-consecrator with Bishop Sanborn.  For someone perhaps outside of some of the ecclesiastical politics there is Bishop Robert Neville.

Bishop Dolan was to ordain four seminarians in the very near future and a bishop will be needed for that.  Going forward St. Gertrude the Great will need to be aligned with a bishop for confirmations and for their holy oils.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on April 29, 2022, 04:49:38 AM
It would be odd for there not to be pontifical rites for a deceased bishop.  They are perhaps still determining which bishop will preside (or looking for one).


One doubts that Bishops Clarence Kelly or Markus Ramolla would be candidates.  One thinks of Bishop Mark Pivarunas, CMRI as he consecrated Bishop Dolan, and Bishop Donald Sanborn also comes to mind.  Though they had their differences Bishops Dolan and Sanborn had their collaborations and Bishop Sanborn might see it as an opportunity to expand his "turf" so-to-speak.  There is also Bishop Joseph Selway, for whom Bishop Dolan was a co-consecrator with Bishop Sanborn.  For someone perhaps outside of some of the ecclesiastical politics there is Bishop Robert Neville.

Bishop Dolan was to ordain four seminarians in the very near future and a bishop will be needed for that.  Going forward St. Gertrude the Great will need to be aligned with a bishop for confirmations and for their holy oils.
In my humble opinion as a lay woman, I would think that either Bishop Pivarunas or Bishop Neville might be best.  However, I also think that, especially after Fr Cekada's death, Bishop Dolan had someone in particular in mind and docuмented that. 
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on April 29, 2022, 05:49:47 AM
I would guess Bishop Neville.  Bishop Dolan ended up accusing the sedeprivationists (including Bishop Sanborn) of (at least savoring of) heresy.  I think Bishop Neville is less dogmatic.  When my brother passed away, Bishop Neville sent flowers and his regrets that he couldn't attend the funeral Mass due to his travels (which was at an "una cuм" independent Traditional chapel).  So I got the impression he's a bit less dogmatic.

Bishop Dolan did recently consecrate that Brazilian bishop, but it would take weeks for him to get up here (as he was quarantined for a long time in Mexico before he could got to Cincinnati to be consecrated.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Mithrandylan on April 29, 2022, 01:12:27 PM
Someone told me the Brazilian bishop would be taking care of the upcoming ordinations.

I would imagine if he can't get here in time for the consecrations, Neville or Pivarunas would be the best bets. And probably Neville the better bet, since as far as I'm aware there weren't any unresolved controversies between SGG and him at the time of Dolan's death.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on April 29, 2022, 04:28:21 PM
Someone told me the Brazilian bishop would be taking care of the upcoming ordinations.

I would imagine if he can't get here in time for the consecrations, Neville or Pivarunas would be the best bets. And probably Neville the better bet, since as far as I'm aware there weren't any unresolved controversies between SGG and him at the time of Dolan's death.

Bishop Neville was more aligned with Bishop Sanborn for a while and was consecrated by Bishop McKenna.  Bishop McKenna used to insist that he wouldn't consecrate or ordain straight sedevacantists, only sedeprivationists.  So I suspect that at least for some time Bishop Neville favored sedeprivationism, and shortly before he passed away Bishop Dolan had attacked the sedeprivationists as practically being heretical (to which Bishop Sanborn objected strenuously).  So, if Bishop Neville is still sedeprivationist, and the rest of the SGG clergy feel the same way about sedeprivatioinism, then I suspect that Bishop Pivarunas might be the more likely candidate.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Tedeum on April 29, 2022, 04:47:34 PM
Bishop Neville is sedevacantist. 

Bishop Mckenna was sedevacantist. 

I would hope that Bishop Sanborn and all of the clergy in the remnant church would come together to honor Bishop Dolan. This includes all of the churches across the country. Beyond that, I would be astonished if Bishop Neville took a higher position than Bishop Sanborn in any of this. He is very hesitant to do so in other matters. 
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on April 29, 2022, 04:54:09 PM
Bishop Neville is sedevacantist.

Bishop Mckenna was sedevacantist.

I would hope that Bishop Sanborn and all of the clergy in the remnant church would come together to honor Bishop Dolan. This includes all of the churches across the country. Beyond that, I would be astonished if Bishop Neville took a higher position than Bishop Sanborn in any of this. He is very hesitant to do so in other matters.
If this was just a year ago, I think Bishop Sanborn would be the most likely candidate.  Unfortunately, the two had, to put it mildly and without getting into it here, a falling out.  It is very sad to me, and I do hope that before Bishop Dolan died they were able to smooth things out somewhat.  Regardless I think that Bishop Sanborn would at least be present at the Mass.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Tedeum on April 29, 2022, 05:10:47 PM
There had been a prior argument between Bishop Sanborn and Bishop Neville, but this had been put aside after Bishop McKenna had died. This is because Bishop Neville understood that if anything happened to him, that he could not leave his parish and the sisters with doors shut between them and the Sacraments. 

I believe that anyone who has witnessed the lengths that Bishop Dolan had gone to not just continue to provide the sacraments to the families who remained faithful to the church, but the fact that he traveled all over the world like a St. Peter or St. Paul to bring the sacraments to those that were new to the faith or those who had long been without it.... that is a reason for all the higher up clergy across the country to go to West Chester.  

Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Mithrandylan on April 29, 2022, 05:47:15 PM
All things considered, it seems most fitting for +Sanborn to celebrate the requiem. 
.
But as we all know, the relationship between SGG and MHT was broken at the time of +Dolan's death. Sedeprivationists were not allowed to receive Holy Communion at SGG. As far as I'm aware, that's the status quo +Dolan left. The priests at SGG responsible for organizing the funeral have a very difficult task in front of them. It does not strike me as an easy decision to invite Sanborn at all-- if he doesn't celebrate the mass that would be perhaps even stranger than if he did. 

+Pivarunas might be the celebrant, but Stephen Heiner has been waging war on the CMRI and to most people it appears like a proxy war on behalf of SGG, whose corporate opinion of the CMRI has always been... shaky, I'll say. 

+Neville seems the most unassuming and uncontroversial candidate, aside from the Brazilian Bishop (who is imagine is the most preferable candidate).
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on April 29, 2022, 06:01:00 PM
Bishop Neville is sedevacantist.

Bishop Mckenna was sedevacantist.

Bishop McKenna would vehemently disagree.  He would not consecrate men who were straight sedevacantists, only sedeprivationists.  And Bishop Dolan would disagree.  He denounced the sedeprivationists as practically being heretics in his infamous spat with Bishop Sanborn.  Given that, if Bishop Neville leans sedeprivationists, and the SGG clergy feel the same way, that the position savors of heresy, then they would not likely invite Bishop Neville.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Yeti on April 29, 2022, 06:03:11 PM
Sedeprivationists were not allowed to receive Holy Communion at SGG.

This is completely false.

Quote
+Pivarunas might be the celebrant, but Stephen Heiner has been waging war on the CMRI and to most people it appears like a proxy war on behalf of SGG

Wrong again. In fact, Stephen Heiner said he lost various priests on his staff because of his stance against the CMRI. Since the only priests on his show by that point were either Bp. Sanborn's or SGG clergy, and Bp. Sanborn's definitely did not object to Heiner's war, this only leaves SGG clergy. Bp. Sanborn has been telling people privately to avoid the CMRI for years, whereas Bp. Dolan never told anyone such a thing.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on April 29, 2022, 06:05:30 PM
Sedeprivationists were not allowed to receive Holy Communion at SGG. As far as I'm aware, that's the status quo +Dolan left.

I didn't know it had gotten to this point.  In that case, a fortiori, they would not have one of the most famous current sedeprivationists, Bishop Sanborn, offering the Mass.

As for the Brazilian, I don't know if he could make it there in time given quarantine rules.  At the time of his consecration, Bishop Dolan said he had to spend a long time in Mexico in quarantine before being admitted into the US.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on April 29, 2022, 06:06:43 PM
This is completely false.

So perhaps you two could sort it out.  This would be consistent with Bishop Dolan's having lableled it proximate to heresy.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Mithrandylan on April 29, 2022, 06:11:39 PM
This is completely false.
.
Is it? I had it on the authority of a good friend, an honest man (former contributor to a particular trad outlet, in fact) who had it from a family member it happened to. 

The last thing I want to do is pass along a rumor, but I had taken it as fact considering my source. 
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: DigitalLogos on April 29, 2022, 06:12:58 PM
Reading through this confusion shows what an utter mess Traditional Catholicism is :facepalm:

If it wasn't anathema pre-1958, how can these men declare anathema at all?
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Clarinha on April 29, 2022, 06:15:20 PM
Wow. All the speculations here. Y’all are way out of the loop. Bishop Rodrigo da Silva, consecrated last feast of St. Michael will be the bishop performing the fueneral
Rites. He began his travels today. 
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Yeti on April 29, 2022, 06:42:01 PM
.
Is it? I had it on the authority of a good friend, an honest man (former contributor to a particular trad outlet, in fact) who had it from a family member it happened to.

Should I bother to ask what this person's name is? I can't exactly prove a negative, but I do know that Bp. Dolan gave people the sacraments who went to the una cuм Mass, so for an even greater reason it would make even less sense to refuse the sacraments to someone who held a different brand of sedevacantism than he did.

The idea of a sedevacantist chapel refuses the sacraments to people for holding a different theory on sedevacantism than they do is something unheard-of in America* since Vatican II, and it is highly unlikely that a place such as SGG, which is definitely on the easy-going side of things in the trad world, would be the first place for such a thing to happen.

* I exclude the SSPV from this statement, though they are more or less sedevacantists, since those people are crazy enough to do almost anything.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on April 29, 2022, 06:43:45 PM
.
Is it? I had it on the authority of a good friend, an honest man (former contributor to a particular trad outlet, in fact) who had it from a family member it happened to.

The last thing I want to do is pass along a rumor, but I had taken it as fact considering my source.
Sounds like it wasn't the most prudent thing to repeat here given we only have one anecdote and there is no proof of a formal policy. Has this policy ever been included in the bulletins or in any of the SGG clergy's announcements/sermons? 
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Yeti on April 29, 2022, 06:44:02 PM
This would be consistent with Bishop Dolan's having lableled it proximate to heresy.
Maybe on paper, but not in the real world. Trad priests in general very rarely exclude people from the sacraments over a disagreement on issues related to the crisis in the Church. Sedevacantists are no exception to that rule. Bp. Sanborn has a public statement that he will not give the sacraments to people who attend an una cuм Mass in his bulletin, but that's about the only exception I can think of (again, excluding the SSPV from all of these general statements).
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on April 29, 2022, 06:46:30 PM
Wow. All the speculations here. Y’all are way out of the loop. Bishop Rodrigo da Silva, consecrated last feast of St. Michael will be the bishop performing the funeral
Rites. He began his travels today.
Thank you Clarinha.  It sounds like the quarantining is no longer a concern.  This makes the most sense in the end.    
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: SeanJohnson on April 29, 2022, 07:57:42 PM
Wow. All the speculations here. Y’all are way out of the loop. Bishop Rodrigo da Silva, consecrated last feast of St. Michael will be the bishop performing the fueneral
Rites. He began his travels today.

He’s a total joke.  

Bishop Williamson made public repentance for ever having ordained him.

Conveniently became sede just after his ordination.

Wanted a coat of arms even as a simple priest.

Concerned for his own glory.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Tedeum on April 29, 2022, 08:01:14 PM
Sounds like it wasn't the most prudent thing to repeat here given we only have one anecdote and there is no proof of a formal policy. Has this policy ever been included in the bulletins or in any of the SGG clergy's announcements/sermons?

Absolutely not. 

It would seem that people are trying very hard to divide and diminish - without pausing to consider what their pastors have said repeatedly from the pulpit. 

There is no division between the laity at SGG and those elsewhere. 

Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: TKGS on April 29, 2022, 08:25:50 PM
+Pivarunas might be the celebrant, but Stephen Heiner has been waging war on the CMRI and to most people it appears like a proxy war on behalf of SGG, whose corporate opinion of the CMRI has always been... shaky, I'll say.

I had been under the impression that the "proxy war", on whomever's behalf it was, it was not Bishop Dolan.

In fact, to this day, if you check the "Recommended Mass Centers" on the SGG website, you'll see the following:


Quote
Please see also the directory of Mass centers operated by:

The Congregation of Mary Immaculate Queen (CMRI) (http://www.cmri.org/mass-directory.html)
(http://www.cmri.org/mass-directory.html)
Hardly seems like Bishop Dolan's opinion of the CMRI has been all that shaky.  Perhaps not the best of times, but why would SGG recommend CMRI Mass Centers if they were at "war"?
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Incredulous on April 29, 2022, 09:10:02 PM
He’s a total joke. 

Bishop Williamson made public repentance for ever having ordained him.

Conveniently became sede just after his ordination.

Wanted a coat of arms even as a simple priest.

Concerned for his own glory.


Recall his English was poor, but his instincts on the Francis were spot-on, when he was still a seminarian.

During a global genocide, Bp. Williamson can write weekly letters and Bishop Rodrigo da Silva can ordain priests.

To each, his own Apostolic charism.



 

Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: gladius_veritatis on April 29, 2022, 10:37:39 PM
Bp. Sanborn has a public statement that he will not give the sacraments to people who attend an una cuм Mass in his bulletin...

Such a stance is embarrassing and insane.  Irony of ironies, by treating such Catholics as public sinners he is, in fact, espousing and enforcing a publicly sinful, un-Catholic policy.  The SSPV has decades of similar baggage.  Such is Traddieland.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: gladius_veritatis on April 29, 2022, 10:45:24 PM
Sedeprivationists were not allowed to receive Holy Communion at SGG.

Ah, Traddieland, you never disappoint!  Everyone seems hell-bent upon outdoing each other where hypocrisy and unjustifiable policy are concerned.  Who would've guessed that the Sacraments would eventually be weaponized?
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: gladius_veritatis on April 29, 2022, 11:24:42 PM
I do know that Bp. Dolan gave people the sacraments who went to the una cuм Mass...

Perhaps, but I also know for a rock-solid, indisputable fact that he refused them to (at least some) such people in the past.  He even turned away one man who was the brother of a fellow SV/SP priest in Traddieland.  Said man's wife is an active member on CI, so I shall not divulge any more info.  Suffice it to say, sgg.org/cult has turned away more than most may realize, and for indefensible reasons.  They sought and encouraged "loyalty" to one's "parish" and greatly discouraged bouncing back and forth or remaining understandably impartial in the face of the endless, fruitless squabbling within Traddieland.

Carry on. Godspeed.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on April 30, 2022, 06:17:04 AM
Absolutely not.

It would seem that people are trying very hard to divide and diminish
Yes, even when most folks were trying their best not to do it in this thread.  The genie is out of the bottle now.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on April 30, 2022, 06:24:21 AM
I had been under the impression that the "proxy war", on whomever's behalf it was, it was not Bishop Dolan.

In fact, to this day, if you check the "Recommended Mass Centers" on the SGG website, you'll see the following:

(http://www.cmri.org/mass-directory.html)
Hardly seems like Bishop Dolan's opinion of the CMRI has been all that shaky.  Perhaps not the best of times, but why would SGG recommend CMRI Mass Centers if they were at "war"?
Interestingly enough, Most Holy Trinity Seminary is also included.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on April 30, 2022, 07:26:05 AM
The idea of a sedevacantist chapel refuses the sacraments to people for holding a different theory on sedevacantism than they do is something unheard-of in America* since Vatican II, and it is highly unlikely that a place such as SGG, which is definitely on the easy-going side of things in the trad world, would be the first place for such a thing to happen.

So you're reason for saying that it didn't happen is that you don't believe they would do that?  Bishop Dolan accused the sedeprivationists of being "proximate to heresy", so I don't believe this is too far-fetched.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on April 30, 2022, 07:29:39 AM
He’s a total joke. 

Bishop Williamson made public repentance for ever having ordained him.

Conveniently became sede just after his ordination.

Wanted a coat of arms even as a simple priest.

Concerned for his own glory.

Bishop Williamson's  "repentance" was due to the fact that he became a sedevacantist.  I see a lot of rash judgment here coming from your emotional contempt for sedevacantism.  Somehow you can read his soul and claim that he was "concerned for his own glory."  Your disagreement with sedevacantism doesn't entitle you to slander the man.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on April 30, 2022, 07:32:11 AM
Wow. All the speculations here. Y’all are way out of the loop. Bishop Rodrigo da Silva, consecrated last feast of St. Michael will be the bishop performing the fueneral
Rites. He began his travels today.

Well, the speculation speaks volumes about the state of political relations between the groups.  Normally you'd expect one of the bishops who had known Bishop Dolan for years to offer the Requiem.  And the speculation seemed correct.  Several of us felt it would be the Brazilian IF he could get up here in time.

SGG likely rejected +Sanborn and likely +Neville on account of sedeprivationism.  +Sanborn would have been the most appropriate candidate, since he has known Bishop Dolan from the early days and they very worked closely together for some time.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on April 30, 2022, 07:40:38 AM
Well, the speculation speaks volumes about the state of political relations between the groups.  Normally you'd expect one of the bishops who had known Bishop Dolan for years to offer the Requiem.  And the speculation seemed correct.  Several of us felt it would be the Brazilian IF he could get up here in time.

SGG likely rejected +Sanborn and likely +Neville on account of sedeprivationism.  +Sanborn would have been the most appropriate candidate, since he has known Bishop Dolan from the early days and they very worked closely together for some time.
I think we shouldn't say "SGG rejected" as if the clergy made the decision.  I suspect that the Bishop himself made arrangements for the Brazilian bishop shortly after he consecrated him 7 months ago.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on April 30, 2022, 07:49:12 AM
I think we shouldn't say "SGG rejected" as if the clergy made the decision.  I suspect that the Bishop himself made arrangements for the Brazilian bishop shortly after he consecrated him 7 months ago.

I'd be surprised if Bishop Dolan himself made these arrangements, as I doubt he expected to pass away so soon thereafter.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on April 30, 2022, 07:52:53 AM
I'd be surprised if Bishop Dolan himself made these arrangements, as I doubt he expected to pass away so soon thereafter.
Maybe not, but it's not entirely out of the question given Father Cekada's death only a year earlier.  At the very least, it may have been well known among the clergy there what his wishes were if not formally docuмented yet.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on April 30, 2022, 07:57:37 AM
Maybe not, but it's not entirely out of the question given Father Cekada's death only a year earlier.  At the very least, it may have been well known among the clergy there what his wishes were if not formally docuмented yet.

I wonder if he made any arrangements for a bishop to be consecrated to replace him at SGG.  Perhaps the Brazilian bishop might perform a consecration while he's up here anyway for the funeral.  I'm not sure that SGG has any continuing working relationships with any bishops at this time.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Pax Vobis on April 30, 2022, 09:56:11 AM

Quote
Suffice it to say, sgg.org/cult has turned away more than most may realize, and for indefensible reasons.
Agree.  I have family who live in the Cincy area and there are many, many stories (going back 10+ years) where "una cuм" Trads were not given Communion.  For those who live in the area, it's fairly common knowledge.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Incredulous on April 30, 2022, 10:08:44 AM
He’s a total joke. 

Bishop Williamson made public repentance for ever having ordained him.

Conveniently became sede just after his ordination.

Wanted a coat of arms even as a simple priest.

Concerned for his own glory.

Interesting you mentioned a Coat of Arms ?

I read some discussion about that in the past?

+W's Coat of Arms (http://virgo-maria.org/articles_HTML/2007/010_2007/VM-2007-10-18/VM-2007-10-18-A-00-Coat-of-arms_Williamson_Cunctator.htm)

Was it ever "put-to-bed" or effectively rebutted ?

If so, how?





Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Motorede on April 30, 2022, 10:23:25 AM
Agree.  I have family who live in the Cincy area and there are many, many stories (going back 10+ years) where "una cuм" Trads were not given Communion.  For those who live in the area, it's fairly common knowledge.
I personally know a family from central OH that had been attending SGG for many, many years. They were well known to both priests. But three years ago + D denied their two little girls making their First Holy Communions at SGG because mom and dad sometimes went to SSPX in KY where they have family. 
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Mysterium Fidei on April 30, 2022, 10:28:11 AM
Maybe on paper, but not in the real world. Trad priests in general very rarely exclude people from the sacraments over a disagreement on issues related to the crisis in the Church. Sedevacantists are no exception to that rule. Bp. Sanborn has a public statement that he will not give the sacraments to people who attend an una cuм Mass in his bulletin, but that's about the only exception I can think of (again, excluding the SSPV from all of these general statements).
That has never been in a MHTS bulletin that I have ever seen. The only thing in the bulletin is their statement that Feeneyites are barred from receiving sacraments at MHTS.

Bp. Sanborn's stance on una cuм is well known but I have never seen in print or hear him say that people who go una cuм Masses are barred from receiving sacraments at MHTS. He definitely would say that they should not be going to an una cuм Mass and then coming to MHTS, but I have never heard they are banned from the sacraments absolutely. 
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Incredulous on April 30, 2022, 10:53:33 AM
I personally know a family from central OH that had been attending SGG for many, many years. They were well known to both priests. But three years ago + D denied their two little girls making their First Holy Communions at SGG because mom and dad sometimes went to SSPX in KY where they have family.

And the SSPX's sins?  

I suppose it was because "Francis" is uttered in their 1962 Mass Canon  :confused:

Or was because of the SSPX's acceptance of Bugnini's and the (2) Jєω-popes butchering of Holy Week?

Or could have been... their recognition of newChurch jurisdiction, and the authority of the anti-pope Jєω, Bergolio?

Or their use of zionist monies from Max Krah and others (while still $pumping their faithful) to build $100 million dollar structures?

Maybe... it's because of their old practice (against Canon Law) of sacking and abandoning SSPX priests?

How about the 43 year old complaint of their acceptance and cover-up of of invalid orders?

Could it have been their theology of (4) baptisms, including Rahner's universal salvation as the cause?

But then,... maybe their recent immoral acceptance of the death vax was the last straw for Bishop Dolan?

Oh I know.. it was the SSPX's embrace and promotion of evolutionary theory, Heliocentrism and other fake sciences... as taught by Fr. Paul Robinson?

Let me think.. there's got to be more reasons why Bishop Dolan would do such a horrible thing... :facepalm:


Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on April 30, 2022, 10:56:47 AM
The only thing in the bulletin is their statement that Feeneyites are barred from receiving sacraments at MHTS.

:facepalm: of course they are ... the one great heresy of our times.

Bishop Sanborn needs to rethink that whole thing.  In a debate some time ago, Dr. Fastiggi took him to task over his statement that non-Catholics could be saved while claiming that V2 ecclesiology is heretical.

MAJOR:  No Salvation Outside the Church.
MINOR:  Non-Catholics can be saved.
CONCLUSION:  Catholic Church includes non-Catholics. [=V2 ecclesiology which +Sanborn claims is heretical.]
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Motorede on April 30, 2022, 11:07:12 AM
Nope, Incred, it was as inferred in my post. +D to the parents: They put Francis' name in the Canon. 
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: LeDeg on April 30, 2022, 11:08:36 AM
+Sanborn has stated on True Restoration radio that he will not give Holy Communion to those that he knows attend the SSPX Masses. I heard it from his own mouth.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: LeDeg on April 30, 2022, 11:12:19 AM
:facepalm: of course they are ... the one great heresy of our times.

Bishop Sanborn needs to rethink that whole thing.  In a debate some time ago, Dr. Fastiggi took him to task over his statement that non-Catholics could be saved while claiming that V2 ecclesiology is heretical.

MAJOR:  No Salvation Outside the Church.
MINOR:  Non-Catholics can be saved.
CONCLUSION:  Catholic Church includes non-Catholics. [=V2 ecclesiology which +Sanborn claims is heretical.]
Agreed. There is no difference in kind between the trad clergy and the VII ecclesiology, only degree.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Mysterium Fidei on April 30, 2022, 11:36:54 AM
:facepalm: of course they are ... the one great heresy of our times.

Bishop Sanborn needs to rethink that whole thing.  In a debate some time ago, Dr. Fastiggi took him to task over his statement that non-Catholics could be saved while claiming that V2 ecclesiology is heretical.

MAJOR:  No Salvation Outside the Church.
MINOR:  Non-Catholics can be saved.
CONCLUSION:  Catholic Church includes non-Catholics. [=V2 ecclesiology which +Sanborn claims is heretical.]
I was merely making a factual correction. I have no intention of getting into a debate with Feeyeyites.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Mysterium Fidei on April 30, 2022, 11:39:21 AM
+Sanborn has stated on True Restoration radio that he will not give Holy Communion to those that he knows attend the SSPX Masses. I heard it from his own mouth.
Could you reference the episode where he said that please. I am a member of True Restoration and would like to hear exactly what he said so I can have reference to the context in which it was said.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on April 30, 2022, 11:58:29 AM
Here are the official Communion Rules for St Gertrude's:

http://www.sgg.org/for-newcomers/communion-rules/



Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: DigitalLogos on April 30, 2022, 12:31:07 PM
Here are the official Communion Rules for St Gertrude's:

http://www.sgg.org/for-newcomers/communion-rules/
Not seeing anything about them vetting your opinion on the una cuм Mass or sedeprivationism :clown:
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on April 30, 2022, 12:58:12 PM
Not seeing anything about them vetting your opinion on the una cuм Mass or sedeprivationism :clown:

Well, they probably wouldn't put that in a "newcomers" section in that they would have no idea what a "una cuм" Mass is.  I feel that Pax's information is reliable, coming from family who live in the Cincy area.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Motorede on April 30, 2022, 01:57:08 PM
Not seeing anything about them vetting your opinion on the una cuм Mass or sedeprivationism :clown:
Sounds as if they give out communion indiscriminately since traditionalists don't need to be reminded about no communion in the hand. But SSPX does the same thing, too. 
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Jr1991 on April 30, 2022, 02:44:04 PM
I won't go as far as to say the individual priests of the Neo-SSPX are wholly ignorant of the needs of the faithful, but it's clear that the mission has shifted to one of complacency with Rome. We've discussed it on here before, but they really should alter the structure of the Society to assign priests to specific areas, like a parish priest, rather than having them clustered in one central location and traveling all over. Really limiting their availability.

Agree, but as you said in your post, that is not what they are doing. The SSPX is obsessed with building high-priced monuments, which cost a fortune and often take years to complete (if they are ever finished). I will give you an example of incompetency and wasted resources in Florida.

There are two missions, one in Miramar Beach, which has a population of 8,3565.00. There is another mission in Brooksville, Florida(Bishop Sanborn’s stomping grounds). And it has a population of 8,200.00.

Miami-Dade County, which has a population of 2.8 million(and the most Catholics of any part of the state), does not have a mission and has zero priests. How does that make any sense? If this were a corporation, the person in charge would have been fired for gross incompetency.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: TKGS on April 30, 2022, 03:21:16 PM
Agree, but as you said in your post, that is not what they are doing. The SSPX is obsessed with building high-priced monuments, which cost a fortune and often take years to complete (if they are ever finished). I will give you an example of incompetency and wasted resources in Florida.

There are two missions, one in Miramar Beach, which has a population of 8,3565.00. There is another mission in Brooksville, Florida(Bishop Sanborn’s stomping grounds). And it has a population of 8,200.00.

Miami-Dade County, which has a population of 2.8 million(and the most Catholics of any part of the state), does not have a mission and has zero priests. How does that make any sense? If this were a corporation, the person in charge would have been fired for gross incompetency.
"Miami, Florida.  You will never find a more wretched hive of scuм and villainy."  -- Obi Wan.

Perhaps there are an insufficient number of Catholics to support a mission chapel.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on April 30, 2022, 03:23:36 PM
Well, they probably wouldn't put that in a "newcomers" section in that they would have no idea what a "una cuм" Mass is.  I feel that Pax's information is reliable, coming from family who live in the Cincy area.
Oh come on.  One can easily write it to say "masses in union with Francis" if they don't know what "una cuм" means.  

As for the anecdotes on this thread, if they are true and that was the only reason why they were not allowed to receive communion, then SGG should rewrite their communion rules to reflect that.  I don't like that the SSPV doesn't allow Thuc line sympathizers/parishioners to receive communion, but I'd rather they be upfront about it in their bulletins rather than be coy about it.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on April 30, 2022, 03:31:00 PM
"Miami, Florida.  You will never find a more wretched hive of scuм and villainy."  -- Obi Wan.

Perhaps there are an insufficient number of Catholics to support a mission chapel.
LOL...yeah, like having one in the state of Vermont.  :laugh1:
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on April 30, 2022, 03:38:42 PM
Oh come on.  One can easily write it to say "masses in union with Francis" if they don't know what "una cuм" means. 

Nonsense.  Do you really believe that Novus Ordites would even know what the expression "Masses in union with Francis" would mean?  You overestimate the catechesis of Novus Ordites by orders of magnitude.

I trust Pax that they would refuse Communion to una cuм ... but that probably refers to the more pertinacious types, and not the casual Novus Ordite.

Presumably also they would write "no Communion in the Hand" and make mention of "please see the priest if you're coming from the New Mass" to make sure they even have valid Sacraments (Baptism, Confession, marriage, etc.) before approaching Holy Communion.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on April 30, 2022, 04:01:22 PM
Nonsense.  Do you really believe that Novus Ordites would even know what the expression "Masses in union with Francis" would mean?  You overestimate the catechesis of Novus Ordites by orders of magnitude.

I trust Pax that they would refuse Communion to una cuм ... but that probably refers to the more pertinacious types, and not the casual Novus Ordite.

Presumably also they would write "no Communion in the Hand" and make mention of "please see the priest if you're coming from the New Mass" to make sure they even have valid Sacraments (Baptism, Confession, marriage, etc.) before approaching Holy Communion.
Regardless of what they would write specifically, the point is that they would write something for newcomers to make sure they understand and that they do not receive communion if they were coming on board una cuм Francis... IF that was SGG's blanket policy as is being pushed in this thread.

But they don't.  If it is, then they should.

And with that, I'm out of this thread since, as of page 6 or so, it is no longer about Bishop Dolan's death.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Pax Vobis on April 30, 2022, 04:23:25 PM
To clarify, I don't think the ban is a blanket one.  It's not like people are turned away every week.  I've heard of feeneyites being denied and also other random people who openly disagreed with SGG on this or that.  I think the "una cuм" was used as a catch-all explanation from SGG clerics to the parishioners, to explain what happened after the fact.  The point being, the SGG knew the Trads that they turned away.

The Cincy area has 3 different chapels (sspx, Fr Jenkins, +Dolan/Fr Cekada) being within 30-40 minutes of one another, all with very different Trad flavors.  The controversy arises when the youngsters start dating from different chapels, because then the different clerics have to "lay down the law" on a) feenyism, b) sedevacantism, c) una cuм, d) pro-rome, e) not switching chapels, f) home school vs chapel school, g) etc etc.

SGG is definitely wrong in their "turf war" but so is the sspx and Fr Jenkins.  All 3 groups have contributed to the nonsense, conflict and family turmoil.  There are many, many stories where a couple got married at one of the chapels, and one of the spouses' families won't speak to them.  The clerics condone and contribute to these tragedies.  It's still going on.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Jr1991 on April 30, 2022, 04:38:45 PM
"Miami, Florida.  You will never find a more wretched hive of scuм and villainy."  -- Obi Wan.

Perhaps there are an insufficient number of Catholics to support a mission chapel.

I'm sure that's what the early Christians said to the Romans OR St. Paul said to the Corinthians. There seems to be this attitude among modern-day Catholics that we should stay in our own safe space, and all will be well. Guess what? Eventually, that safe space isn't going to be so safe.

And yes, there was an SSPX chapel in Miami. It was willed to the SSPX by an independent priest who died prematurely. The SSPX sold off the chapel late last year. The small chapel was packed every Sunday.







Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Jr1991 on April 30, 2022, 04:43:30 PM
LOL...yeah, like having one in the state of Vermont.  :laugh1:

Or sin city having a chapel. :laugh1:


https://fsspx.today/chapel/las-vegas/info/
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Incredulous on April 30, 2022, 04:52:58 PM
To clarify, I don't think the ban is a blanket one.  It's not like people are turned away every week.  I've heard of feeneyites being denied and also other random people who openly disagreed with SGG on this or that.  I think the "una cuм" was used as a catch-all explanation from SGG clerics to the parishioners, to explain what happened after the fact.  The point being, the SGG knew the Trads that they turned away.

The Cincy area has 3 different chapels (sspx, Fr Jenkins, +Dolan/Fr Cekada) being within 30-40 minutes of one another, all with very different Trad flavors.  The controversy arises when the youngsters start dating from different chapels, because then the different clerics have to "lay down the law" on a) feenyism, b) sedevacantism, c) una cuм, d) pro-rome, e) not switching chapels, f) home school vs chapel school, g) etc etc.

SGG is definitely wrong in their "turf war" but so is the sspx and Fr Jenkins.  All 3 groups have contributed to the nonsense, conflict and family turmoil.  There are many, many stories where a couple got married at one of the chapels, and one of the spouses' families won't speak to them.  The clerics condone and contribute to these tragedies.  It's still going on.


(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fcatholicherald.co.uk%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2018%2F09%2FScreen-Shot-2018-09-12-at-09.40.42-1-1024x645.png&f=1&nofb=1)
                       
                        It could be the biggest Trad Battlefield in North America?
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: epiphany on April 30, 2022, 04:58:50 PM
Agree.  I have family who live in the Cincy area and there are many, many stories (going back 10+ years) where "una cuм" Trads were not given Communion.  For those who live in the area, it's fairly common knowledge.
Huh.
B. Dolan was always very kind and supportive even though we were not una cuм or sede, and he offered to send us a priest for mass.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: TKGS on April 30, 2022, 05:31:09 PM
And yes, there was an SSPX chapel in Miami. It was willed to the SSPX by an independent priest who died prematurely. The SSPX sold off the chapel late last year. The small chapel was packed every Sunday.
Interesting.  I guess they got quite a sum for the property.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: SimpleMan on April 30, 2022, 06:34:19 PM
Or sin city having a chapel. :laugh1:


https://fsspx.today/chapel/las-vegas/info/

Been there, done that, got the graces.  Ditto for St Joseph's downtown (Fr Courtney Krier).

There's a lot more goes on in Las Vegas besides sin.  Play some slots, get some cheap food, stay in an affordable hotel, not a bad way to spend a couple of days.  Next time I wouldn't mind getting out to Front Sight.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Tedeum on April 30, 2022, 07:01:50 PM
Interesting.  I guess they got quite a sum for the property.

So sad. That was a beautiful chapel. 

Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Tedeum on April 30, 2022, 07:03:42 PM
So question for any who might know, who made Father Kelly a Bishop? 
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: SimpleMan on April 30, 2022, 07:32:00 PM
So question for any who might know, who made Father Kelly a Bishop?
Retired bishop Alfred Mendez of Arecibo, Puerto Rico, who was consecrated in 1960:

https://congregationofstpiusv.com/about-us/bishop-clarence-kelly/

 (https://congregationofstpiusv.com/about-us/bishop-clarence-kelly/)
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: DigitalLogos on April 30, 2022, 07:47:04 PM
Interesting.  I guess they got quite a sum for the property.
More money for the corn field cathedral
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on April 30, 2022, 07:57:17 PM
And yes, there was an SSPX chapel in Miami. It was willed to the SSPX by an independent priest who died prematurely. The SSPX sold off the chapel late last year. The small chapel was packed every Sunday.

What was the name of this chapel?  I want to bring this to the attention of my local independent priest, Father Leo Carley.  He's getting into his late 80s (pre-V2 ordained) but still remarkably taking care of the chapel.  So I was on his Board of Trustees a few years ago.  At one point Father decided, against my advice (I spoke up during the meetings) to will his chapel and school to SSPX (plus he owns a couple nice homes adjacent to it and a large amount of land next to a ritzy country club with expensive homes).  Plus he has a lot of cash savings.  I warned Father that given the proximity of St. Peregrine in Richfield, OH ... which the SSPX just built out to the tune of a couple million dollars, that it's inevitable that the SSPX would sell off his chapel (Immaculate Heart of Mary) to further bankroll the St. Peregrine build-out.  He seemed reluctant because of what I said, but just said, "What other choice do I have to ensure the future of the chapel for the faithful?"  So he asked the Trustees to sign, but I politely and respectfully resigned instead of signing.

I could go back to him with the example of this chapel and see if he might be interested in going more along the Resistance lines.  I think he really does fit better with the Resistance, but he would need some assurances that his chapel would be taken care of.  In his rhetoric, Father almost sounds sedevacantist and in some cases is even to the right of the Resistance (he's convinced that the New Mass is outright invalid and not just doubtful).  He excoriated a hospital chaplain who tried to bring Communion to one of his chapel members for bringing his "idolatrous wafer".  So he is NOT of a neo-SSPX mindset.

In any case, this case in Miami might give me more ammunition to persuade him to go in some other direction than SSPX.

Father has had a few run-ins with SSPX.  About 3 years ago now, Father broke his hip and needed a replacement.  SSPX called and said they might be able to get a late afternoon Mass in on Christmas Day.  Father was very upset, and threatened to roll back the will.  So, we were surprised to see Bishop Tissier walk out on Christmas morning for the usual 9AM Mass.

More recently, the SSPX tried to extort $500,000 from Father Carley, telling him that if he wanted to have the SSPX service his chapel, he would have to pay for half of the cost of the priory they were building at St. Peregrine.  I would bet every dollar I had that the second Father Carley passes away, they'll take all the chapel assets, including the cash, sell all the real estate, just to bankroll that ill-conceived project at St. Peregrine.  Also, about 13 years ago, when Fr. Libietis was at St. Peregrine, he raised hundreds of thousands for a new chapel project, and that money evaporated, undoubtedly funnelled to the new seminary project.  So the people there at St. Peregrine who contributed all that money and worked hard at fundraisers were basically robbed.  These are very grave things the SSPX has done, and yet they feel no quamls of conscience ripping off the assets of Catholic faithful.  I find it downright disgusting.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Pax Vobis on April 30, 2022, 08:21:41 PM
Quote
And yes, there was an SSPX chapel in Miami. It was willed to the SSPX by an independent priest who died prematurely. The SSPX sold off the chapel late last year. The small chapel was packed every Sunday.
To be fair (as much as we all can criticize the new-sspx for being too concerned with $)...I visited that miami chapel in Jan 2006 when Fr Tim Hopkins was still alive.  It was no bigger than a 3 car garage.  It was a lovely chapel but it was SUPER small.  And as others have said, it was packed...which means, it needed to be sold.  The sspx made the right decision on this one.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Jr1991 on April 30, 2022, 08:25:17 PM
What was the name of this chapel?  I want to bring this to the attention of my local independent priest, Father Leo Carley.  He's getting into his late 80s (pre-V2 ordained) but still remarkably taking care of the chapel.  So I was on his Board of Trustees a few years ago.  At one point Father decided, against my advice (I spoke up during the meetings) to will his chapel and school to SSPX (plus he owns a couple nice homes adjacent to it and a large amount of land next to a ritzy country club with expensive homes).  Plus he has a lot of cash savings.  I warned Father that given the proximity of St. Peregrine in Richfield, OH ... which the SSPX just built out to the tune of a couple million dollars, that it's inevitable that the SSPX would sell off his chapel (Immaculate Heart of Mary) to further bankroll the St. Peregrine build-out.  He seemed reluctant because of what I said, but just said, "What other choice do I have to ensure the future of the chapel for the faithful?"  So he asked the Trustees to sign, but I politely and respectfully resigned instead of signing.

I could go back to him with the example of this chapel and see if he might be interested in going more along the Resistance lines.  I think he really does fit better with the Resistance, but he would need some assurances that his chapel would be taken care of.  In his rhetoric, Father almost sounds sedevacantist and in some cases is even to the right of the Resistance (he's convinced that the New Mass is outright invalid and not just doubtful).  He excoriated a hospital chaplain who tried to bring Communion to one of his chapel members for bringing his "idolatrous wafer".  So he is NOT of a neo-SSPX mindset.

In any case, this case in Miami might give me more ammunition to persuade him to go in some other direction than SSPX.

Father has had a few run-ins with SSPX.  About 3 years ago now, Father broke his hip and needed a replacement.  SSPX called and said they might be able to get a late afternoon Mass in on Christmas Day.  Father was very upset, and threatened to roll back the will.  So, we were surprised to see Bishop Tissier walk out on Christmas morning for the usual 9AM Mass.

More recently, the SSPX tried to extort $500,000 from Father Carley, telling him that if he wanted to have the SSPX service his chapel, he would have to pay for half of the cost of the priory they were building at St. Peregrine.  I would bet every dollar I had that the second Father Carley passes away, they'll take all the chapel assets, including the cash, sell all the real estate, just to bankroll that ill-conceived project at St. Peregrine.  Also, about 13 years ago, when Fr. Libietis was at St. Peregrine, he raised hundreds of thousands for a new chapel project, and that money evaporated, undoubtedly funnelled to the new seminary project.  So the people there at St. Peregrine who contributed all that money and worked hard at fundraisers were basically robbed.  These are very grave things the SSPX has done, and yet they feel no quamls of conscience ripping off the assets of Catholic faithful.  I find it downright disgusting.

Lads, it was called the Shrine of St. Philomena. It was willed to the SPPX by Fr. Timothy Hopkins after he unexpectedly died of a gunshot wound. He was only in his mid-fifties and a great priest.

I remember he would sleep in the chapel because he had nowhere else to go until he could finally pay off the chapel. I have posted a link with the PDF(click the English version before they take it down) that explains the entire fiasco.

The ironies of ironies are that Fr. Hopkins had a long-time feud with the local Episcopalians in the area. They aggressively tried to steal parishioners from his chapel and convert them to Protestantism. Guess who the SSPX sold the chapel to? That’s right; the same Episcopalians that for almost 30 years were trying to steal parishioners---All for $670,000. This deserves its own thread because it is such a scandal. Photos were posted as well. Maybe, others who attended the Shine will comment.

https://florida.sspx.org/en/philomena-shrine/Miami



Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Jr1991 on April 30, 2022, 08:28:52 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/RTzQIHH.png)


Before and after. 


(https://i.imgur.com/6YO5tMR.jpg)
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Jr1991 on April 30, 2022, 08:30:45 PM
Correction I said Epicolians in my previous post; it's Pentecostal.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Jr1991 on April 30, 2022, 08:33:38 PM
To be fair (as much as we all can criticize the new-sspx for being too concerned with $)...I visited that miami chapel in Jan 2006 when Fr Tim Hopkins was still alive.  It was no bigger than a 3 car garage.  It was a lovely chapel but it was SUPER small.  And as others have said, it was packed...which means, it needed to be sold.  The sspx made the right decision on this one.

The chapel in Davie is the same size, Not counting the bigger cafeteria area. This has nothing to do with the size of the building; it's all about money.

Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: bodeens on April 30, 2022, 08:38:37 PM
I am glad I go to CMRI chapels for Mass. No trad organization is 100% ideal but I keep quiet at the chapel and on the grounds and I do fine. If I really had to I would go to Eastern and have considered going to SSPX (I could go to Mass a few times a week extra if I did this so it is a serious consideration) but the collection plate bothered me. I know individual priests do not will these kinds of atrocious dealings. Should I just supply a priest with some consumables that the chapel would need (toilet paper/paper towels or something like that) in proportion to what I'd otherwise give or would that be inappropriate?
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Pax Vobis on April 30, 2022, 08:45:32 PM

Quote
The chapel in Davie is the same size, Not counting the bigger cafeteria area. This has nothing to do with the size of the building; it's all about money.
Even if the building was sold for $, it was still too small, long term.  Objectively, it needed to be sold.  The error is in replacing it with something the same size.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Jr1991 on April 30, 2022, 08:48:55 PM
For those who don’t believe me about the Pentecostals trying to steal Parishioners(see link). They are stomping on Fr. Hopkins's gravesite, courtesy of the SSPX.



https://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2011-1120-ryan-fr-hopkins.htm
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Jr1991 on April 30, 2022, 08:51:05 PM
I am glad I go to CMRI chapels for Mass. No trad organization is 100% ideal but I keep quiet at the chapel and on the grounds and I do fine. If I really had to I would go to Eastern and have considered going to SSPX (I could go to Mass a few times a week extra if I did this so it is a serious consideration) but the collection plate bothered me. I know individual priests do not will these kinds of atrocious dealings. Should I just supply a priest with some consumables that the chapel would need (toilet paper/paper towels or something like that) in proportion to what I'd otherwise give or would that be inappropriate?

Well, you’re fortunate no CMRI down here. If there were, you better believe I would be attending.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Jr1991 on April 30, 2022, 08:58:50 PM
Even if the building was sold for $, it was still too small, long term.  Objectively, it needed to be sold.  The error is in replacing it with something the same size.

If you are going to sell a chapel that has been celebrating the Latin mass for more than 30 years. You first have to get on the pulpit, look the parishioners in the eye, and tell them so. Then you have to make accommodations for them to receive the sacraments. If it means moving to a temporary warehouse, so be it--moving to another county is not the answer.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Pax Vobis on April 30, 2022, 09:02:03 PM

Quote
If you are going to sell a chapel that has been celebrating the Latin mass for more than 30 years. You first have to get on the pulpit, look the parishioners in the eye, and tell them so. Then you have to make accommodations for them to receive the sacraments. If it means moving to a temporary warehouse, so be it--moving to another county is not the answer.
I agree with you, if that's how it went down.  I know nothing of the details of the sale, or the lack of communication.  And obviously, the replacement chapel is just as small.  I'm just saying, objectively, the original site was small.  
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: DigitalLogos on April 30, 2022, 09:03:39 PM
Well, you’re fortunate no CMRI down here. If there were, you better believe I would be attending.
There's one CMRI chapel about two hours away from me, but also an SSPX 35 minutes away, so I go there instead. Otherwise I'd be going to the CMRI chapel.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Jr1991 on April 30, 2022, 09:16:12 PM
I agree with you, if that's how it went down.  I know nothing of the details of the sale, or the lack of communication.  And obviously, the replacement chapel is just as small.  I'm just saying, objectively, the original site was small. 

That is exact;y how it went down. Read the PDF link I posted. Basically, the SSPX took advantage of the scamdemic to close and sell off one of their two paid-off chapels. Moreover, the SSPX still needs two million dollars to begin thinking about building a bigger chapel. They have already spent more than a million dollars to purchase land.

All of this has been docuмented on this site. Prior, Toupppe in Sanford is running a Glenn Gary Ross Real Estate agency instead of looking after souls. It's basically a fire sale for all Florida chapels.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Jr1991 on April 30, 2022, 09:20:57 PM
There's one CMRI chapel about two hours away from me, but also an SSPX 35 minutes away, so I go there instead. Otherwise I'd be going to the CMRI chapel.

Fr. Jenkins comes down once a week to Boynton Beach to offer mass. The problem is it’s about two-and-a-half hours away. And after his calumny of Bishop Dolan, I’m having second thoughts.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: gladius_veritatis on April 30, 2022, 09:30:40 PM
As the thread is about the passing of Bishop Dolan, it might be better and more seemly to discuss the myriad side issues that have arisen in threads dedicated to them.  Just a thought...
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: gladius_veritatis on April 30, 2022, 09:36:28 PM
Well, they probably wouldn't put that in a "newcomers" section in that they would have no idea what a "una cuм" Mass is.  I feel that Pax's information is reliable, coming from family who live in the Cincy area.

I lived there myself for years.  It is a very sad state of affairs and has been for decades.  I and many others lived what I revealed about sgg.org/cult and sgg.org/skewl.  People may believe as they wish, as that is their business; however, it would be better discussed in threads dedicated to that purpose.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: gladius_veritatis on April 30, 2022, 09:49:43 PM
The Cincy area has 3 different chapels (sspx, Fr Jenkins, +Dolan/Fr Cekada) being within 30-40 minutes of one another, all with very different Trad flavors.  The controversy arises when the youngsters start dating from different chapels, because then the different clerics have to "lay down the law" on a) feenyism, b) sedevacantism, c) una cuм, d) pro-rome, e) not switching chapels, f) home school vs chapel school, g) etc etc.

SGG is definitely wrong in their "turf war" but so is the sspx and Fr Jenkins.  All 3 groups have contributed to the nonsense, conflict and family turmoil.  There are many, many stories where a couple got married at one of the chapels, and one of the spouses' families won't speak to them.  The clerics condone and contribute to these tragedies.  It's still going on.

The Nati (Cincinnati) is Endlessly Scandalous Mind-F*ck Central within Traddieland.  It isn't so surprising, as those who brought about the terrible situation we are in also undoubtedly followed us into the desert, infiltrating the most obvious targets -- SSPX, for starters, then any other highly-visible resistance groups.  As the Nati has been the most populous/active spot in perhaps all of Traddieland since day one, it only makes sense that the enemies would seek to infiltrate and sow discord in such a place. They have done their job well.

Now, for the love of God and all that is decent, pray for the repose of the soul of Bishop Dolan, Fr. Cekada, and any and all deceased priests you have met or heard of, and let this thread end with simple, prayerful posts for a man whose time on earth has ended.  We will all soon face a judgment the likes of which should make us tremble and weep.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on May 01, 2022, 07:31:00 AM
So up here in NE Ohio, my neck of the woods, we have, within about 30-40 minutes of each other:

1) SSPX chapel/school in Richfield, OH (developing into a priory I think).
2) SSPX mission chapel in Girard, OH
--I live about halfway between these 2
3) Independent SSPX-aligned chapel (Akron, OH)
4) SSPV chapel in Parma, OH
5) CMRI chapel in Akron, OH
6) two Motu Masses in Akron, OH (not to mention a few in Cleveland)
7) probably a dozen Eastern Rite churches

Strangely here, unlike Cincinnati, there's a generous ebb and flow of people among these chapels.  Quite a few people who went to CMRI chapel went to school at the SSPX-aligned independent chapel (went to daily Mass and communion also).  Father Jenkins has no issues giving communion to SSPXers (including those of us from the Independent chapel).  In fact, a member of Father Jenkins' chapel has taught for years at the school of the independent SSPX-aligned priest.  Probably the odd man out here would be people from the CMRI chapel in Akron would not be welcome at Father Jenkins' St. Therese chapel.  But otherwise, you have people flowing back and forth between CMRI, Motu, independent, SSPX, etc.  That's how it should be really.  In this crisis, NOBODY has the authority to bind consciences on the controverted issues facing us.

So I think that the big differences between SGG and Fr. Jenkins:

Fr. Jenkins is OK with giving the Sacraments to una cuм people, whereas SGG is (reportedly) not.  Fr. Jenkins is much less dogmatic about SVism.

Meanwhile, SGG is OK with the CMRI and +Thuc lines, whereas Fr. Jenkins is decidedly not.

Strangely, EVERYBODY hates Feeneyites, although I believe SSPX will tolerate them, given them the Sacraments, as long as they don't prosletyze.

Recently of course there was a major falling out between Bishop Sanborn and Bishop Dolan, whereas the two had worked very closely for many years (both OK with +Thuc lines, same dogmatic SVish theology).  But they were on the point of excommunicating each other over SVism vs. Sedeprivationism.  Talk about elevating theological opinion to the level of dogma!

And then there was some kind of major falling out between Bishop Kelly and Fr. Jenkins that I still can't get the full details about from someone who's a member of Fr. Jenkins chapel.  It seems to be kept somewhat hush-hush.

So the offshoots of The Nine, although they share very similar theological positions, still have managed to find ways to excommunicae one another.

This is absurd and childish and has done great harm.  Nobody has the authority to bind consciences.  If I were a priest and though +Thuc line was doubtful, I would admonish the faithful that I believed their souls were at risk, but I would not bar them from the Sacraments.  Their opinion about the validity of the +Thuc lines doesn't make them non-Catholics, and Catholics have a right to receive the Sacraments.  Even though I have a "strict" view of EENS, I would not bar from the Sacraments someone who believed in BoD.  Etc. etc. about every position that hasn't been dogmatically settled by the Church.  THIS elevation of theological opinion to the level of dogma absent Church authority, and thereby effectively a usurpation of an authority that belongs only to the Church, is and has been the bane of the Traditional movement.  It's the result of the flock being scattered due to the Shepherd having been struck.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on May 01, 2022, 07:46:16 AM
Also, mature Catholics who had doubts about one another's Orders would do the Catholic and charitable thing of simply conditionally consecrating one another and then conditionally ordaining all their priests.  Problem solved, and they could start working with one another and spreading out instead of competing for the same turf in the same metropolitan regions.  Why do we need 10 different chapels in NE Ohio and a bunch in Cincinnati when many parts of the country are lacking in access to Traditional Mass and Sacraments?  There's a large hole in Columbus ... about halfway between Cleveland and Columbus, and a big shortage in Indiana ... just to name a few of many.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: frankielogue on May 01, 2022, 08:24:04 AM
Just to clear some things up, since there is a lot of discussion— Bishop da Silva is coming to offer the funeral Mass. There are currently no concrete arrangements for the upcoming ordination of the four young deacons, but that is currently being worked out.

The next year or so will determine the future of SGG. Bishop da Silva is bad news.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: frankielogue on May 01, 2022, 09:37:46 AM
Just to clear some things up, since there is a lot of discussion— Bishop da Silva is coming to offer the funeral Mass. There are currently no concrete arrangements for the upcoming ordination of the four young deacons, but that is currently being worked out.

The next year or so will determine the future of SGG. Bishop da Silva is bad news.
Update: it was announced today that the seminarians will be ordained next week.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 01, 2022, 09:42:01 AM
Update: it was announced today that the seminarians will be ordained next week.
Praise God
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: LeDeg on May 01, 2022, 09:44:43 AM
Could you reference the episode where he said that please. I am a member of True Restoration and would like to hear exactly what he said so I can have reference to the context in which it was said.
I don't remember the episode. It may be on their Roman Catholic YouTube channel. 
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Simeon on May 01, 2022, 10:29:28 AM
LAD SAID: "This elevation of theological opinion to the level of dogma absent Church authority, and thereby effectively a usurpation of an authority that belongs only to the Church, is and has been the bane of the Traditional movement."

Thank you for saying that. It needs to be said over and over and over again, until it gains traction.

I've been thinking about usurpation a lot over the last several months. It seems to me that at this exact moment in history - excepting what I note below - nowhere on the earth can be found, either in the secular or the ecclesiastical realm, any authority that is not either itself a usurpation, or derived from usurpation.

The exception would be the legitimate authority stemming from participation in the Natural Law, for example the legitimate authority of parents over their children, elders over young'uns, teachers over pupils, etc. And yet, even in these instances, one cannot omit to mention the vile interference, oppression, and attempts to corrupt this natural authority, by the agents and vectors of this now-entrenched, universal usurpation.  
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Simeon on May 01, 2022, 10:37:09 AM
Also, mature Catholics who had doubts about one another's Orders would do the Catholic and charitable thing of simply conditionally consecrating one another and then conditionally ordaining all their priests.  Problem solved, and they could start working with one another and spreading out instead of competing for the same turf in the same metropolitan regions.  Why do we need 10 different chapels in NE Ohio and a bunch in Cincinnati when many parts of the country are lacking in access to Traditional Mass and Sacraments?  There's a large hole in Columbus ... about halfway between Cleveland and Columbus, and a big shortage in Indiana ... just to name a few of many.
There is something desperately wrong with motives and intentions in the trad tableau. It is clear as day, if one surveys the fruits, now fully ripened after 60 years.

At some point in time, what began as an honest and militant counter-offensive, was kidnapped and murdered.

As we know vermin of all stripes feed on carcasses.

The current scene evokes for me an image of hyenas, maggots, and vultures (read:trad positions) vying with each other to feed on a corpse.

Unfortunately, we are that corpse. 
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 01, 2022, 11:09:29 AM
There is something desperately wrong with motives and intentions in the trad tableau. It is clear as day, if one surveys the fruits, now fully ripened after 60 years.

At some point in time, what began as an honest and militant counter-offensive, was kidnapped and murdered.

As we know vermin of all stripes feed on carcasses.

The current scene evokes for me an image of hyenas, maggots, and vultures (read:trad positions) vying with each other to feed on a corpse.

Unfortunately, we are that corpse.
"Wheresoever the body shall be, there shall the eagles also be gathered together."
[Matthew 24:28]
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on May 01, 2022, 12:03:41 PM
The next year or so will determine the future of SGG. Bishop da Silva is bad news.

I wonder what legal arrangements were made now that Bishop Dolan and Father Cekada, the senior leadership, are both gone.  We've seen it over and over again when a priest dies, there's a battle for control, often by the lay people.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: SimpleMan on May 01, 2022, 12:09:04 PM
So up here in NE Ohio, my neck of the woods, we have, within about 30-40 minutes of each other:

1) SSPX chapel/school in Richfield, OH (developing into a priory I think).
2) SSPX mission chapel in Girard, OH
--I live about halfway between these 2
3) Independent SSPX-aligned chapel (Akron, OH)
4) SSPV chapel in Parma, OH
5) CMRI chapel in Akron, OH
6) two Motu Masses in Akron, OH (not to mention a few in Cleveland)
7) probably a dozen Eastern Rite churches

Do you have any idea how enviable the situation in northern Ohio is? 

You actually make an excellent case for one's relocating there.  (I'm retired with independent income, and once my son turns 18 and there are no more custody issues, we can live anywhere we want to.)
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Jr1991 on May 01, 2022, 02:52:33 PM
There is something desperately wrong with motives and intentions in the trad tableau. It is clear as day, if one surveys the fruits, now fully ripened after 60 years.

At some point in time, what began as an honest and militant counter-offensive, was kidnapped and murdered.

As we know vermin of all stripes feed on carcasses.

The current scene evokes for me an image of hyenas, maggots, and vultures (read:trad positions) vying with each other to feed on a corpse.

Unfortunately, we are that corpse.

Indeed Vultures and Jackals are a good analogy. Both are encircling their carcasses, i.e., the faithful. This thread puts all of it in clear view. All the so-called “leaders” of these traditional societies should get their act together and repent, or most will go to hell.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Jr1991 on May 01, 2022, 02:57:43 PM
The only way to stop this madness is to stop donating money. This is the only thing they really care about, so they will be forced to react if you cut off the money supply. The problem is(at least in the NEO-SSPX) world, they are now being run by the Novus Ordo refugees, who have more money to put in the SSPX coffers.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on May 01, 2022, 03:09:05 PM
Do you have any idea how enviable the situation in northern Ohio is? 

You actually make an excellent case for one's relocating there.  (I'm retired with independent income, and once my son turns 18 and there are no more custody issues, we can live anywhere we want to.)

Yes, I do.  Within about a 60 minute drive, I could get to any one of about 27 options for a valid and (mostly Catholic) Mass.  I say mostly Catholic because the Maronite Rites are Modernized quite a bit, and the Eastern Rites use English (vernacular).  And one might argue whether the 3 Motu Masses within range of me are valid (would depend on the priest and the elderly ones are dying out).

These are the various Masses (that I know of ... I'm sure I'm missing a few) within an hour drive of where I live.  If I were to move about 15 minutes West of where I live, you'd have several here within a 10 minute drive (the ones in or near Akron OH).  Lots of Eastern European immigrants came to the Cleveland area, including Hungarians (my own descent).

20 minutes -- Sacred Heart of Jesus Church, CMRI, Akron
20 minutes -- Motu, St. Paul Church, Akron (9:30 AM)
22 minutes -- Holy Ghost Ukrainian, Akron
25 minutes -- Immaculate Heart of Mary and School, Independent SSPX-aligned, Akron, Father Leo Carley (resident ... though elderly)
26 minutes -- St. Nicholas Byzantine, Barberton
26 minutes -- Motu, St. Sebastian Church, Akron  (1:00 PM)
27 minutes -- Our Lady of Cedars Maronite
30 minutes -- St. Theodore Romanian Catholic
31 minutes -- St. Joseph Melkite Rite
33 minutes -- Our Lady of Mariapoch Byzantine Shrine
34 minutes -- Our Lady of Sorrows, SSPX -- mostly just a mission with 3PM Sunday Mass
36 minutes -- St. George Romanian Catholic Cathedral (eparchy with bishop)
37 minutes -- St. Peregrine Church and Academy, SSPX -- just weekends now but plans to make it a priory
37 minutes -- St. Mary's Ukrainian
38 minutes -- Our Lady of the Most Holy Rosary, FSSP -- Vienna, OH 38 minutes (3 priests stationed there)
38 minutes -- St. Mary Romanian Catholic
42 minutes -- St. Joseph Byzantine
47 minutes -- St. John the Baptist Byzantine Cathedral (eparchy with bishop and priests)
48 minutes -- St. Therese, Parma, SSPV -- just weekends
48 minutes -- St. Josaphat Cathedral (eparchy with bishop and several priests)
48 minutes -- St. Maron Maronite Catholic (resident priest)
48 minutes -- Most Holy Trinity Romanian Catholic
51 minutes -- St. John's Hungarian Byzantine, Cleveland
52 minutes -- Motu, St. Stephen Church, Akron
53 minutes -- St. Emilian Byzantine
53 minutes -- St. Helena Romanian Catholic
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: TKGS on May 01, 2022, 04:27:56 PM
Do you have any idea how enviable the situation in northern Ohio is? 

You actually make an excellent case for one's relocating there.  (I'm retired with independent income, and once my son turns 18 and there are no more custody issues, we can live anywhere we want to.)
The only real drawback is...you live in Ohio!
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: SperaInDeo on May 01, 2022, 05:18:01 PM
It's the result of the flock being scattered due to the Shepherd having been struck.

And then the sheep decided to turn to cannibalism.

That was a good post! :cowboy:
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Incredulous on May 01, 2022, 05:31:34 PM
If you are going to sell a chapel that has been celebrating the Latin mass for more than 30 years. You first have to get on the pulpit, look the parishioners in the eye, and tell them so. Then you have to make accommodations for them to receive the sacraments. If it means moving to a temporary warehouse, so be it--moving to another county is not the answer.

There are many stories on SSPX chapel takeovers and real-estate flipping.   They have perfected the process.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 01, 2022, 06:24:36 PM
The bishop's body isn't even cold yet and the Dimonds have to do their victory lap :facepalm:

https://youtu.be/C61P5Exwccs
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Incredulous on May 01, 2022, 06:45:01 PM
The bishop's body isn't even cold yet and the Dimonds have to do their victory lap :facepalm:

https://youtu.be/C61P5Exwccs


From Father Hesse's explanation, the method of Baptism (Water, Desire & Blood) is not dogmatically defined.

But the rejection of the Extra Ecclasium Nulla Salus dogma is a problem... shared by many Traditionalist, especially the SSPX.



Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 01, 2022, 06:55:48 PM

From Father Hesse's explanation, the method of Baptism (Water, Desire & Blood) is not dogmatically defined.

But the rejection of the Extra Ecclasium Nulla Salus dogma is a problem... shared by many Traditionalist, especially the SSPX.
Yes, and I agree that there is a serious problem with rejection of EENS among traddies. I don't even disagree with the theological issues they bring up about +Dolan. But going as far as to say that we shouldn't pray for an undeclared "heretic" such as Bp. Dolan and saying without a doubt he is in hell is simply despicable.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Incredulous on May 01, 2022, 07:17:20 PM
Yes, and I agree that there is a serious problem with rejection of EENS among traddies. I don't even disagree with the theological issues they bring up about +Dolan. But going as far as to say that we shouldn't pray for an undeclared "heretic" such as Bp. Dolan and saying without a doubt he is in hell is simply despicable.

Agreed.  I call it "Dark sedevanctism".
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on May 01, 2022, 07:22:13 PM
The only real drawback is...you live in Ohio!

Nah, but I like it here.  We have 4 seasons (although they're getting more and more screwed up).  I couldn't take warm/hot all year around (like in Texas or Florida).  Makes you really enjoy the Spring (and the Fall).  We're not prone to hurricanes, earthquakes, floods (except right on the banks of some rivers), or tornados (not the big ones anyway).  We don't have any poinsonous snakes or spiders up here.  Because of the Winter, we don't have mosquitos that have 2-feet wingspans.  No scorpions or fireants or stuff like that.  We don't have terrible traffic like a lot of major cities.  If we want to visit Chicago or Washington DC, it's about 6 hours in opposite directions.  We don't have worry about droughts or water supply issues, since we have a huge freshwater lake nearby.  Plenty of tillable soil.  I wouldn't mind some more sunshine throughout the year (tends to be on the cloudy side), but other than that I have zero complaints.  And, did I mention that we have a very low cost of living compared to most other parts of the country.  I've lived in DC and Chicago, and it's much more expensive there ... to say nothing of California.  House I have here would probably go for 2 million dollars in CA.  Tons of Catholic culture, beautiful old churches (that we'll reclaim some day), etc.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Minnesota on May 01, 2022, 07:26:11 PM
This is why, IMO, expecting anything short of divine intervention to end the Crisis or even mitigate it is futile. 

If tomorrow at dawn, they declared the Crisis over and suddenly all the Trad groups were to merge into the local ordinary, we'd be back to yesterday's madness by about noon. Maybe 10:30am at the absolute earliest.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: SimpleMan on May 01, 2022, 07:37:23 PM
The only real drawback is...you live in Ohio!

Ohio's all right.  I have traveled there extensively and have had some ties there.  My uncle and his family used to live in Cleveland.

The economy's not the best in many parts of the state, and not to sound cavalier or dismissive, but with a retirement income, where I live really doesn't matter.  I live on a shoestring as it is now.  Many of my groceries come from Aldi.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on May 01, 2022, 07:38:51 PM
Agreed.  I call it "Dark sedevanctism".

It's precisely what I was calling out with these Traditional priests and clergy themselves.  They elevate their theological opinions to the level of dogma.  Ironically, I agree with the Dimonds regarding most of their material conclusions, but imposing them on others under pain of heresy is crossing the line into schism.  This refusal of communion by Trad clergy based on theological positions is also basically schismatic.

Note to Trad bishops, priests, and Dimond brothers.  You have NO authority whatsoever.  You are not theologians.  You bishops are not part of the Ecclesia Docens.  You priests are not "pastors" over the faithful who attend your chapels (not parishes).  Nobody with authority in the Church put you in charge of anything.  You basically have the same training as a simple parish priest prior to Vatican II.  Even if you're smart and can spin some good syllogisms, you are NOT teachers (much less theologians) NOR pastors NOR anything.  You cannot bind other people's consciences with your conclusions.  When you get up in the pulpit to preach, you are merely OPINING and your opinion has no more authority than that of any laymen sitting there listening to you.  You are not TEACHING as no one has appointed you to teach.  YOUR SOLE FUNCTION is to be an emergency extraordinary dispenser of the Sacraments to the Catholic faithful.  That's it.  As such, the faithful have a right to receive the Sacraments, and you are obligated to make them available to them.  Apart from obvious direct contradiction of Catholic dogma ("nah, I don't believe in the Holy Trinity" or "I don't believe in the Real Presence" or "I believe that abortion or sodomy are permissible." ... where there's direct open rejection of Church teaching) YOU CANNOT EXCOMMUNICATE ANYONE by refusing them the Sacraments because they don't agree with your theological take on the Crisis.  If you do so, you violate gravely your sole purpose for having been ordained and/or consecrated.  You are not better than the faithful nor have you deserved Holy Orders.  No man does.  Holy Orders are given not for your glory but for the good of the faithful.  Even you bishops, you have no more authority than anyone else.  You are like auxliaries whose sole purpose is to make available the Sacraments that cannot be had without episcopal consecration (Confirmation, Holy Orders).  I've had enough of your petty, puerile, and arrogant nonsense.  You harm the Church with this idiocy and bring shame upon Traditional Catholics as a whole.  Your petty fighting and turf battles bring shame upon us all.  You are of course entitled to your opinion on the Crisis, and you can try to persuade others of it, but that's as far as it goes.  You can advise the faithful that you believe they risk their souls by going to +Thuc line clergy for Sacraments, but you may not refuse them the Sacraments for disagreeing with you.  You can admonish the una cuм folks, but you may not refuse them the Sacraments.  You may reject Feeneyism at the top of your lungs, but you may not refuse the Sacraments to Feeneyites.  You can believe that many NO annulments are invalid, but you may not refuse the Sacraments to those who disagree and who believe their annulments are legitimate.  You have NO AUTHORITY to bind ANYONE'S conscience regarding ANY of these matters that have not been authoritatively settled by the Church.  You come across like a bunch of 4-year-olds "playing Church".  Snap out of this and grow up.  You were not made bishops and priests so that you can walk around relishing how the faithful tip their heads out of respect and call you "Father" or "Your Excellency".  Many of you would be bagging groceries at Walmart had you not been undeservedly selected to receive Holy Orders for the good of the faithful.  Your behavior is a scandal.

OPEN LETTER TO TRAD CLERGY,
Laszlo Szijarto
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on May 01, 2022, 07:48:17 PM
I myself have some very strong opinions on the Crisis, but even if I were a priest or bishop, I would never dare impose them on anyone or refuse them the Sacraments for disagreeing with me.  Period.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: gladius_veritatis on May 01, 2022, 08:01:54 PM
You basically have the same training as a simple parish priest prior to Vatican II.

This is giving the training throughout Traddieland far too much credit.  It is not nearly as solid as what was given everywhere pre-V2.  What is more, not a single member of any of the Trad staffs has the credentials held by every single member of the staffs in pre-V2 days.

Your letter/summary is excellent.  I have said the same for many years.  Sadly, we both know that very few (if any) priests throughout all of Traddieland have the ears to hear and humility of heart to profitably process the message.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Jr1991 on May 01, 2022, 08:53:38 PM
It's precisely what I was calling out with these Traditional priests and clergy themselves.  They elevate their theological opinions to the level of dogma.  Ironically, I agree with the Dimonds regarding most of their material conclusions, but imposing them on others under pain of heresy is crossing the line into schism.  This refusal of communion by Trad clergy based on theological positions is also basically schismatic.

Note to Trad bishops, priests, and Dimond brothers.  You have NO authority whatsoever.  You are not theologians.  You bishops are not part of the Ecclesia Docens.  You priests are not "pastors" over the faithful who attend your chapels (not parishes).  Nobody with authority in the Church put you in charge of anything.  You basically have the same training as a simple parish priest prior to Vatican II.  Even if you're smart and can spin some good syllogisms, you are NOT teachers (much less theologians) NOR pastors NOR anything.  You cannot bind other people's consciences with your conclusions.  When you get up in the pulpit to preach, you are merely OPINING and your opinion has no more authority than that of any laymen sitting there listening to you.  You are not TEACHING as no one has appointed you to teach.  YOUR SOLE FUNCTION is to be an emergency extraordinary dispenser of the Sacraments to the Catholic faithful.  That's it.  As such, the faithful have a right to receive the Sacraments, and you are obligated to make them available to them.  Apart from obvious direct contradiction of Catholic dogma ("nah, I don't believe in the Holy Trinity" or "I don't believe in the Real Presence" or "I believe that abortion or sodomy are permissible." ... where there's direct open rejection of Church teaching) YOU CANNOT EXCOMMUNICATE ANYONE by refusing them the Sacraments because they don't agree with your theological take on the Crisis.  If you do so, you violate gravely your sole purpose for having been ordained and/or consecrated.  You are not better than the faithful nor have you deserved Holy Orders.  No man does.  Holy Orders are given not for your glory but for the good of the faithful.  Even you bishops, you have no more authority than anyone else.  You are like auxliaries whose sole purpose is to make available the Sacraments that cannot be had without episcopal consecration (Confirmation, Holy Orders).  I've had enough of your petty, puerile, and arrogant nonsense.  You harm the Church with this idiocy and bring shame upon Traditional Catholics as a whole.  Your petty fighting and turf battles bring shame upon us all.  You are of course entitled to your opinion on the Crisis, and you can try to persuade others of it, but that's as far as it goes.  You can advise the faithful that you believe they risk their souls by going to +Thuc line clergy for Sacraments, but you may not refuse them the Sacraments for disagreeing with you.  You can admonish the una cuм folks, but you may not refuse them the Sacraments.  You may reject Feeneyism at the top of your lungs, but you may not refuse the Sacraments to Feeneyites.  You can believe that many NO annulments are invalid, but you may not refuse the Sacraments to those who disagree and who believe their annulments are legitimate.  You have NO AUTHORITY to bind ANYONE'S conscience regarding ANY of these matters that have not been authoritatively settled by the Church.  You come across like a bunch of 4-year-olds "playing Church".  Snap out of this and grow up.  You were not made bishops and priests so that you can walk around relishing how the faithful tip their heads out of respect and call you "Father" or "Your Excellency".  Many of you would be bagging groceries at Walmart had you not been undeservedly selected to receive Holy Orders for the good of the faithful.  Your behavior is a scandal.

OPEN LETTER TO TRAD CLERGY,
Laszlo Szijarto
Well said. 
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Jr1991 on May 01, 2022, 08:59:48 PM
There are many stories on SSPX chapel takeovers and real-estate flipping.  They have perfected the process.

I wonder if anyone has a list of all the chapels the SSPX has flipped that were willed to them by an independent priest. Where did the money go?
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Simeon on May 01, 2022, 09:31:49 PM
It's precisely what I was calling out with these Traditional priests and clergy themselves.  They elevate their theological opinions to the level of dogma.  Ironically, I agree with the Dimonds regarding most of their material conclusions, but imposing them on others under pain of heresy is crossing the line into schism.  This refusal of communion by Trad clergy based on theological positions is also basically schismatic.

Note to Trad bishops, priests, and Dimond brothers.  You have NO authority whatsoever.  You are not theologians.  You bishops are not part of the Ecclesia Docens.  You priests are not "pastors" over the faithful who attend your chapels (not parishes).  Nobody with authority in the Church put you in charge of anything.  You basically have the same training as a simple parish priest prior to Vatican II.  Even if you're smart and can spin some good syllogisms, you are NOT teachers (much less theologians) NOR pastors NOR anything.  You cannot bind other people's consciences with your conclusions.  When you get up in the pulpit to preach, you are merely OPINING and your opinion has no more authority than that of any laymen sitting there listening to you.  You are not TEACHING as no one has appointed you to teach.  YOUR SOLE FUNCTION is to be an emergency extraordinary dispenser of the Sacraments to the Catholic faithful.  That's it.  As such, the faithful have a right to receive the Sacraments, and you are obligated to make them available to them.  Apart from obvious direct contradiction of Catholic dogma ("nah, I don't believe in the Holy Trinity" or "I don't believe in the Real Presence" or "I believe that abortion or sodomy are permissible." ... where there's direct open rejection of Church teaching) YOU CANNOT EXCOMMUNICATE ANYONE by refusing them the Sacraments because they don't agree with your theological take on the Crisis.  If you do so, you violate gravely your sole purpose for having been ordained and/or consecrated.  You are not better than the faithful nor have you deserved Holy Orders.  No man does.  Holy Orders are given not for your glory but for the good of the faithful.  Even you bishops, you have no more authority than anyone else.  You are like auxliaries whose sole purpose is to make available the Sacraments that cannot be had without episcopal consecration (Confirmation, Holy Orders).  I've had enough of your petty, puerile, and arrogant nonsense.  You harm the Church with this idiocy and bring shame upon Traditional Catholics as a whole.  Your petty fighting and turf battles bring shame upon us all.  You are of course entitled to your opinion on the Crisis, and you can try to persuade others of it, but that's as far as it goes.  You can advise the faithful that you believe they risk their souls by going to +Thuc line clergy for Sacraments, but you may not refuse them the Sacraments for disagreeing with you.  You can admonish the una cuм folks, but you may not refuse them the Sacraments.  You may reject Feeneyism at the top of your lungs, but you may not refuse the Sacraments to Feeneyites.  You can believe that many NO annulments are invalid, but you may not refuse the Sacraments to those who disagree and who believe their annulments are legitimate.  You have NO AUTHORITY to bind ANYONE'S conscience regarding ANY of these matters that have not been authoritatively settled by the Church.  You come across like a bunch of 4-year-olds "playing Church".  Snap out of this and grow up.  You were not made bishops and priests so that you can walk around relishing how the faithful tip their heads out of respect and call you "Father" or "Your Excellency".  Many of you would be bagging groceries at Walmart had you not been undeservedly selected to receive Holy Orders for the good of the faithful.  Your behavior is a scandal.

OPEN LETTER TO TRAD CLERGY,
Laszlo Szijarto
THIS IS THE SINGLE BEST POST I'VE EVER READ ON A FORUM SINCE BEGINNING IN 2008. 

I'm cutting this out and pasting it on the fridge. 

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Simeon on May 01, 2022, 09:44:33 PM
It occurs to me that there is really no difference between the trad clergy and protestants, as 1) neither have actual ecclesiastical authority; 2) both make private judgment their primary principle of operation; and 3) both show forth in their fruits endless divisions into sects.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: trento on May 01, 2022, 09:52:39 PM
It's precisely what I was calling out with these Traditional priests and clergy themselves.  They elevate their theological opinions to the level of dogma.  Ironically, I agree with the Dimonds regarding most of their material conclusions, but imposing them on others under pain of heresy is crossing the line into schism.  This refusal of communion by Trad clergy based on theological positions is also basically schismatic.

Note to Trad bishops, priests, and Dimond brothers.  You have NO authority whatsoever.  You are not theologians.  You bishops are not part of the Ecclesia Docens.  You priests are not "pastors" over the faithful who attend your chapels (not parishes).  Nobody with authority in the Church put you in charge of anything.  You basically have the same training as a simple parish priest prior to Vatican II.  Even if you're smart and can spin some good syllogisms, you are NOT teachers (much less theologians) NOR pastors NOR anything.  You cannot bind other people's consciences with your conclusions.  When you get up in the pulpit to preach, you are merely OPINING and your opinion has no more authority than that of any laymen sitting there listening to you.  You are not TEACHING as no one has appointed you to teach.  YOUR SOLE FUNCTION is to be an emergency extraordinary dispenser of the Sacraments to the Catholic faithful.  That's it.  As such, the faithful have a right to receive the Sacraments, and you are obligated to make them available to them.  Apart from obvious direct contradiction of Catholic dogma ("nah, I don't believe in the Holy Trinity" or "I don't believe in the Real Presence" or "I believe that abortion or sodomy are permissible." ... where there's direct open rejection of Church teaching) YOU CANNOT EXCOMMUNICATE ANYONE by refusing them the Sacraments because they don't agree with your theological take on the Crisis.  If you do so, you violate gravely your sole purpose for having been ordained and/or consecrated.  You are not better than the faithful nor have you deserved Holy Orders.  No man does.  Holy Orders are given not for your glory but for the good of the faithful.  Even you bishops, you have no more authority than anyone else.  You are like auxliaries whose sole purpose is to make available the Sacraments that cannot be had without episcopal consecration (Confirmation, Holy Orders).  I've had enough of your petty, puerile, and arrogant nonsense.  You harm the Church with this idiocy and bring shame upon Traditional Catholics as a whole.  Your petty fighting and turf battles bring shame upon us all.  You are of course entitled to your opinion on the Crisis, and you can try to persuade others of it, but that's as far as it goes.  You can advise the faithful that you believe they risk their souls by going to +Thuc line clergy for Sacraments, but you may not refuse them the Sacraments for disagreeing with you.  You can admonish the una cuм folks, but you may not refuse them the Sacraments.  You may reject Feeneyism at the top of your lungs, but you may not refuse the Sacraments to Feeneyites.  You can believe that many NO annulments are invalid, but you may not refuse the Sacraments to those who disagree and who believe their annulments are legitimate.  You have NO AUTHORITY to bind ANYONE'S conscience regarding ANY of these matters that have not been authoritatively settled by the Church.  You come across like a bunch of 4-year-olds "playing Church".  Snap out of this and grow up.  You were not made bishops and priests so that you can walk around relishing how the faithful tip their heads out of respect and call you "Father" or "Your Excellency".  Many of you would be bagging groceries at Walmart had you not been undeservedly selected to receive Holy Orders for the good of the faithful.  Your behavior is a scandal.

OPEN LETTER TO TRAD CLERGY,
Laszlo Szijarto
I'm sorry but it may not be so simple. What about groups that purposely cause problems in a chapel, for example, sedevacantists or Feeneyites coming to a SSPX chapel placing their leaflets at the vestibule or distributing them outside the chapel before/after Mass? Similarly this applies too to "una cuм" folks going to a sedevacantist chapel. We know full well each group's theological positions and for the sake of harmony and discipline, I'm of the opinion that the priests have every right to deny the sacraments to troublemakers. If they remain courteous and comes just for the sacraments, then they ought not to be denied. If my many years of experience in Traddieland, I've come across many different people trying to push their opinions upon chapels and priests.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: bodeens on May 01, 2022, 10:30:13 PM
The bishop's body isn't even cold yet and the Dimonds have to do their victory lap :facepalm:

https://youtu.be/C61P5Exwccs
I saw they posted something new today and had to click x less than a minute or so in. Disgusting video.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Minnesota on May 01, 2022, 10:32:37 PM
It's precisely what I was calling out with these Traditional priests and clergy themselves.  They elevate their theological opinions to the level of dogma.  Ironically, I agree with the Dimonds regarding most of their material conclusions, but imposing them on others under pain of heresy is crossing the line into schism.  This refusal of communion by Trad clergy based on theological positions is also basically schismatic.

Note to Trad bishops, priests, and Dimond brothers.  You have NO authority whatsoever.  You are not theologians.  You bishops are not part of the Ecclesia Docens.  You priests are not "pastors" over the faithful who attend your chapels (not parishes).  Nobody with authority in the Church put you in charge of anything.  You basically have the same training as a simple parish priest prior to Vatican II.  Even if you're smart and can spin some good syllogisms, you are NOT teachers (much less theologians) NOR pastors NOR anything.  You cannot bind other people's consciences with your conclusions.  When you get up in the pulpit to preach, you are merely OPINING and your opinion has no more authority than that of any laymen sitting there listening to you.  You are not TEACHING as no one has appointed you to teach.  YOUR SOLE FUNCTION is to be an emergency extraordinary dispenser of the Sacraments to the Catholic faithful.  That's it.  As such, the faithful have a right to receive the Sacraments, and you are obligated to make them available to them.  Apart from obvious direct contradiction of Catholic dogma ("nah, I don't believe in the Holy Trinity" or "I don't believe in the Real Presence" or "I believe that abortion or sodomy are permissible." ... where there's direct open rejection of Church teaching) YOU CANNOT EXCOMMUNICATE ANYONE by refusing them the Sacraments because they don't agree with your theological take on the Crisis.  If you do so, you violate gravely your sole purpose for having been ordained and/or consecrated.  You are not better than the faithful nor have you deserved Holy Orders.  No man does.  Holy Orders are given not for your glory but for the good of the faithful.  Even you bishops, you have no more authority than anyone else.  You are like auxliaries whose sole purpose is to make available the Sacraments that cannot be had without episcopal consecration (Confirmation, Holy Orders).  I've had enough of your petty, puerile, and arrogant nonsense.  You harm the Church with this idiocy and bring shame upon Traditional Catholics as a whole.  Your petty fighting and turf battles bring shame upon us all.  You are of course entitled to your opinion on the Crisis, and you can try to persuade others of it, but that's as far as it goes.  You can advise the faithful that you believe they risk their souls by going to +Thuc line clergy for Sacraments, but you may not refuse them the Sacraments for disagreeing with you.  You can admonish the una cuм folks, but you may not refuse them the Sacraments.  You may reject Feeneyism at the top of your lungs, but you may not refuse the Sacraments to Feeneyites.  You can believe that many NO annulments are invalid, but you may not refuse the Sacraments to those who disagree and who believe their annulments are legitimate.  You have NO AUTHORITY to bind ANYONE'S conscience regarding ANY of these matters that have not been authoritatively settled by the Church.  You come across like a bunch of 4-year-olds "playing Church".  Snap out of this and grow up.  You were not made bishops and priests so that you can walk around relishing how the faithful tip their heads out of respect and call you "Father" or "Your Excellency".  Many of you would be bagging groceries at Walmart had you not been undeservedly selected to receive Holy Orders for the good of the faithful.  Your behavior is a scandal.

OPEN LETTER TO TRAD CLERGY,
Laszlo Szijarto
This should be printed, mailed and translated in multiple languages. Brilliant.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 01, 2022, 10:39:03 PM
It occurs to me that there is really no difference between the trad clergy and protestants, as 1) neither have actual ecclesiastical authority; 2) both make private judgment their primary principle of operation; and 3) both show forth in their fruits endless divisions into sects.
You're not wrong. That's one of the biggest struggles I have with tradlandia, because their rejection of V2 and embrace of traditional Catholicism is correct, but their expression of such a position leads to division and personality cults while us poor laymen are left between a rock and a hard place trying to figure out just who is correct.


(http://<a href=)(https://i.ibb.co/jWQQhzb/giphy.webp)
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on May 02, 2022, 04:55:44 AM
So, someone just asked me where I had heard about an autopsy.  She said she actually contacted the county who said they were not taking his case. I can't recall where I saw it, but I could have sworn I saw something and took it as reliable.  Did anyone else see/hear about it? Given we have not heard about a cause of death, I would think [hope?] that someone is in the process of figuring that out.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 02, 2022, 05:17:21 AM
So, someone just asked me where I had heard about an autopsy.  She said she actually contacted the county who said they were not taking his case. I can't recall where I saw it, but I could have sworn I saw something and took it as reliable.  Did anyone else see/hear about it? Given we have not heard about a cause of death, I would think [hope?] that someone is in the process of figuring that out.
Iirc, generally, they don't do autopsies on people over the age of 60(?) unless specifically requested or related to a crime.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Incredulous on May 02, 2022, 05:21:27 AM
I wonder if anyone has a list of all the chapels the SSPX has flipped that were willed to them by an independent priest. Where did the money go?

The list is extensive.

Greenwood, Indiana

(https://sspx.org/sites/sspx/files/styles/ankeiler_visual_2/public/media/usa-district/com-priory/in_-_greenwood_-_exterior_2.jpg?itok=shAXI4Aj)
With lawyers and a few pro SSPX members at his side,
Fr. Rostand, tells the Chapel's independent Board to give the SSPX the chapel
or they will open one down the street and put them out of business.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on May 02, 2022, 06:12:38 AM
You're not wrong. That's one of the biggest struggles I have with tradlandia, because their rejection of V2 and embrace of traditional Catholicism is correct, but their expression of such a position leads to division and personality cults while us poor laymen are left between a rock and a hard place trying to figure out just who is correct.

Right, you often get advice here of "go see your priest".  And the obvious retort is, "which priest?"

And, you know what, it's OK to have a variety of opinions on the Crisis.  There are some opinions that are bad and borderilne non-Catholic (IMO), but we Catholics adhere to Church teaching, but tolerate a wide range of opinion outside of actual Church teaching.   No Traditional Catholic would ever dare question the defined dogmas of the Church, even if on some controverted issues people have a variety of interpretations of what that teaching means.  That's the litmus test for whether someone has the formal motive of faith, their submission to the Magisterium of the Church, and I don't know of any Trad Catholic who doesn't FORMALLY have that intention to submit, even if materially they're in error.

Church stepped in at one point during the Thomist vs. Molinist debate and declared that neither side could declare the other side to be heretics.

I think that it's OK to argue that a certain opinion is (objectively aka materially) heretical, but not to declare people outside the Church and refuse them the Sacraments to declare them to be in hell (as the Dimonds do).

This is what the difference between FORMAL and MATERIAL heresy boils down to (and it's not "sincerity").  It has to do with whether someone accepts the Magisterium of the Church as their rule of faith and intend to accept and adhere to whatever the Church teaches.  To misunderstand or misinterpret what the Church teaches about a subject is the very definition of MATERIAL heresy.  [On a side note, to contrast this with the "sincerity" view, a Protestant who does not accept the teaching of the Church as the rule of faith cannot be a MATERIAL heretic, even if he's "sincere" in the believe.  FORMAL deals with whether one has the correct FORMAL MOTIVE of faith, and not whether they're sincere.]
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on May 02, 2022, 06:16:01 AM
I've heard The Nine say that at Econe in the 1970s there was a wide variety of opinions among the seminarians there, and that they were all tolerated, from those who were SVs to those who were hostile to SVism.  And that's as it should be.  These issues have not been defined by the Church.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Stubborn on May 02, 2022, 06:37:43 AM
It occurs to me that there is really no difference between the trad clergy and protestants, as 1) neither have actual ecclesiastical authority; 2) both make private judgment their primary principle of operation; and 3) both show forth in their fruits endless divisions into sects.
Well said. Skimming this thread, what many posters are saying is what Fr. Wathen's put into words some 40 years ago.....


"...you will remember that Our Lord uses the same expression in His parable, His allegory of the Good Shepherd, you remember that He says that the wolf enters among the sheep and he kills and he scatters. The wolf is the false teacher, the heretical preacher, the false prophet. And he introduces into the Church destruction and disunity, because his doctrine is false there is bound to be disagreement among the Lord’s flock as to what is the true doctrine and what is the false.

This is what we have seen in our generation due to the Second Vatican Council. There is now in the Catholic Church, grievous, and apparently irremediable disunity. There is no agreement any more as to what the true doctrine of Christ is, what the Apostolic tradition is, what we must believe for salvation, or even that we must believe for salvation.

The wolves have entered into God’s Holy Church, and they have not only set about destroying souls by the ravaging of the faith, but they have caused grievous, most harmful disunity, so that nowadays the people don’t know what priest to trust..."
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Incredulous on May 02, 2022, 07:22:18 AM
Here are the official Communion Rules for St Gertrude's:

http://www.sgg.org/for-newcomers/communion-rules/


Those are straightforward, non political Holy Communion rules!
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 02, 2022, 09:08:24 AM
I've heard The Nine say that at Econe in the 1970s there was a wide variety of opinions among the seminarians there, and that they were all tolerated, from those who were SVs to those who were hostile to SVism.  And that's as it should be.  These issues have not been defined by the Church.
The ridiculous level of schism within tradlandia tells me that once a Holy Pope were to emerge, many of them would still reject them because of their pet theory on the Crisis. Hence why there is a necessity for God to have another global chastisement to "reset" things. Or, Christ is coming back really soon.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on May 02, 2022, 09:46:27 AM
The ridiculous level of schism within tradlandia tells me that once a Holy Pope were to emerge, many of them would still reject them because of their pet theory on the Crisis. Hence why there is a necessity for God to have another global chastisement to "reset" things. Or, Christ is coming back really soon.

Indeed, there's a Great Reset coming ... but it won't ultimately be Schwab's.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Incredulous on May 02, 2022, 09:56:03 AM
We should create a poll on the ideal trad chapel:

1. EENS
2. Pre 1955 Liturgy.
3. “Unum Batisma” tolerant.
4. Anti-death vax.
5. Sober recognition of anti-Pope Francis.
6. Manly altar server group.
7. Robust coffee & donut service.

:incense:
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Stubborn on May 02, 2022, 09:57:41 AM
Can't forget the coffee and donuts lol
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Simeon on May 02, 2022, 10:39:16 AM
You're not wrong. That's one of the biggest struggles I have with tradlandia, because their rejection of V2 and embrace of traditional Catholicism is correct, but their expression of such a position leads to division and personality cults while us poor laymen are left between a rock and a hard place trying to figure out just who is correct.


(http://<a href=)(https://i.ibb.co/jWQQhzb/giphy.webp)
I've known something was wrong in the independent chapels since I started in 2000. If the novus ordo weren't so horrible, I would have left the tradmire twenty two years ago. As time has gone on, I've become more and more adept at articulating the problem; but nowhere ever have I seen the scalpel taken to the tumor the way Ladislaus did yesterday. And it does my heart good to see on this forum just how many souls understand the problem we face. 

Willa Cather wrote a novel, Death Comes to the Archbishop. It's a wonderful bit of historico-fiction. It is a story told through a series of very poignant and moving vignettes. One of these side stories involves a Franciscan monk who lives in a remote section of South America. He is alone with the natives, and he literally enslaves the entire population. He is their lord and master. They exist only to serve his insatiable material cravings. Finally, if I remember correctly, he accidentally kills one of their children. They turn on him with decades of repressed fury, and I think they murder him. 

Voila....there will come a point when the lay people have had enough of the spiritual neglect and abuse being heaped upon them from the entire body of the trad clergy. Let them take heart, "quoniam exaudivit pauperes Dominus, et vinctos suos non despexit."
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Simeon on May 02, 2022, 10:42:12 AM
The ridiculous level of schism within tradlandia tells me that once a Holy Pope were to emerge, many of them would still reject them because of their pet theory on the Crisis. Hence why there is a necessity for God to have another global chastisement to "reset" things. Or, Christ is coming back really soon.
I've been thinking for a long time that when God finally intervenes, the boat will depart leaving the trad clergy on the dock. 
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 02, 2022, 10:59:42 AM
I've been thinking for a long time that when God finally intervenes, the boat will depart leaving the trad clergy on the dock.
Maybe that's already begun? God only knows
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Incredulous on May 02, 2022, 11:28:40 AM
I've been thinking for a long time that when God finally intervenes, the boat will depart leaving the trad clergy on the dock.

On the Feast of St. Athanasius, let’s consider the honorable aspects of the independent trad Catholic priest?

In our overwhelmingly judaized world, the trad priest is truly a sheep amongst wolves.  There is very little support and many adversaries.  

As long as they don’t mislead the remnant, they should be rewarded in Heaven.

But for trad priests who knowingly compromise the Faith, deceive the faithful and do little to save souls, their chastisement is coming.


Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on May 02, 2022, 11:46:13 AM
Iirc, generally, they don't do autopsies on people over the age of 60(?) unless specifically requested or related to a crime.
Thanks for responding DL.  I still don't know where I got the idea that one was being done, but I am retracting it.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Durango77 on May 02, 2022, 09:55:09 PM
If you are going to sell a chapel that has been celebrating the Latin mass for more than 30 years. You first have to get on the pulpit, look the parishioners in the eye, and tell them so. Then you have to make accommodations for them to receive the sacraments. If it means moving to a temporary warehouse, so be it--moving to another county is not the answer.
This is what the SSPX does though right?  I listened a Bp Dolan interview from several years ago and he said SSPX would just toss priests to the wind if they didn't toe the party line or had any issues.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Minnesota on May 02, 2022, 10:24:32 PM
On the Feast of St. Athanasius, let’s consider the honorable aspects of the independent trad Catholic priest?

In our overwhelmingly judaized world, the trad priest is truly a sheep amongst wolves.  There is very little support and many adversaries. 

As long as they don’t mislead the remnant, they should be rewarded in Heaven.

But for trad priests who knowingly compromise the Faith, deceive the faithful and do little to save souls, their chastisement is coming.
The blame is also on the bishops for not doing proper vetting and ordaining people who have zero business being priests.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on May 03, 2022, 08:57:03 AM
This is what the SSPX does though right?  I listened a Bp Dolan interview from several years ago and he said SSPX would just toss priests to the wind if they didn't toe the party line or had any issues.

Not only that, but they eliminate from the seminary any but the mindless +Fellayite yes-men.  There's a problem when you have classes of 25-30 starting out and end up in 1-4 ordinations every year.  And it isn't because 25 of them were poor quality to being with.  In fact, the 1-4 ordained are usually the ones you didn't think would make it because they weren't too bright and barely passed any of their classes.

I recall that my brother, God rest his soul, got sent packing (after 4 years there and all the Minor Orders) ... because he dared to accuse one Father Carlos Urrutigoity of being a Modernist.  And, for the record, this accusation was not made publicly but in spiritual direction ... which was then leaked out to the seminary staff.  That was a horrific scandal that things mentioned in spiritual direction were leaked.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Minnesota on May 03, 2022, 09:06:35 AM
Not only that, but they eliminate from the seminary any but the mindless +Fellayite yes-men.  There's a problem when you have classes of 25-30 starting out and end up in 1-4 ordinations every year.  And it isn't because 25 of them were poor quality to being with.  In fact, the 1-4 ordained are usually the ones you didn't think would make it because they weren't too bright and barely passed any of their classes.

I recall that my brother, God rest his soul, got sent packing (after 4 years there and all the Minor Orders) ... because he dared to accuse one Father Carlos Urrutigoity of being a Modernist.  And, for the record, this accusation was not made publicly but in spiritual direction ... which was then leaked out to the seminary staff.  That was a horrific scandal that things mentioned in spiritual direction were leaked.
A lot of ex-STAS people would've made fine priests. Truly. The traditional Roman Rite should've had an option for these ex-seminarians to be permanent deacons or subdeacons a la the Byzantines.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Viva Cristo Rey on May 03, 2022, 03:18:48 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErZMHraV_Oo
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: trento on May 06, 2022, 05:01:26 AM

Those are straightforward, non political Holy Communion rules!
But from http://www.fathercekada.com/2014/07/31/what-to-do-if-you-have-no-mass/

What to Do If You Have No Mass

Ten Tips from Bishop Daniel L. Dolan
 
I AM OFTEN asked, “What should I do if I have no Mass?”
First, it is not a sin to miss Mass due to great distance or other serious excusing circuмstances. It is a sin, however, to attend the Novus Ordo. It is also a sin, objectively speaking, to assist at an otherwise valid traditional Latin Mass that is offered in union with the modernist false “pope” and his hierarchy. (For an explanation, see Grain of Incense: Sedevacantists and Una cuм Masses (http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/SedesUncuм.pdf), and Should I Assist at a Mass that Names Benedict XVI in the Canon? (http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/B16inCanon.pdf)) The Church would never have permitted such assistance in the past. It is a lie, it is a sacrilege, and it is grievously offensive to Almighty God.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on May 06, 2022, 05:46:06 AM
But from http://www.fathercekada.com/2014/07/31/what-to-do-if-you-have-no-mass/

The Church would never have permitted such assistance in the past.

I don't believe that this is true.  Even the highly-dogmatic Dimond Brothers have produced evidence that the Church has in fact permitted this.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 06, 2022, 06:26:07 AM
I don't believe that this is true.  Even the highly-dogmatic Dimond Brothers have produced evidence that the Church has in fact permitted this.
Yep. Their position on the "una cuм" issue is essentially the same as my own, there's no precedent in Church history to support the claim that is it ipso-facto a mortal sin to assist at these Masses.
And the Church DID permit such assistance in the past, contra their claims.

https://bit.ly/3Fq9Zb9

To quote them: "Would you say that Padre Pio's Mass was sacrilegious?"
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on May 06, 2022, 06:48:11 AM
To quote them: "Would you say that Padre Pio's Mass was sacrilegious?"

And St. Vincent Ferrer offered Mass while naming an Antipope.  Were his Masses also sacrilegeous?
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 06, 2022, 06:50:03 AM
There's audio of a discussion between Br. Peter and someone discussing the te igitur, which is worth listening to. The basic premise is that this prayer is supposed to show unity with the chair of Peter, not the man occupying it, which is accidental.

Further, John Daly noted that it's no different than the te igitur in English Masses which mention the King of England, an Anglican heretic.

Quote
It is worth noting that in the Sarum rite, then in general use in England, the King is named in the Canon, so that St. Thomas More not only received the Holy Eucharist from a priest who had sworn the Oath, but assisted at Mass in which Henry was actually named in the Te igitur.
https://bit.ly/39054li

And St. Vincent Ferrer offered Mass while naming an Antipope.  Were his Masses also sacrilegeous?
Precisely. St. Vincent during the Western Schism is another great example of the te igitur. Sure, the non una cuм dogmatist could say these antipopes were "orthodox", but their orthodoxy doesn't matter when they were not Popes to begin with. Therefore, by their logic, St. Vincent is still committing a sacrilege. Its ridiculous. 
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: epiphany on May 06, 2022, 07:44:01 AM
The list is extensive.

Greenwood, Indiana

(https://sspx.org/sites/sspx/files/styles/ankeiler_visual_2/public/media/usa-district/com-priory/in_-_greenwood_-_exterior_2.jpg?itok=shAXI4Aj)
With lawyers and a few pro SSPX members at his side,
Fr. Rostand, tells the Chapel's independent Board to give the SSPX the chapel
or they will open one down the street and put them out of business.
Exactly why Fr. Schell, God rest his soul, never wanted the congregation to own a chapel.

Now they do and without Fr. Perez, or a valid trad priest at the helm, it may be another casualty of sspx intervention.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Incredulous on May 06, 2022, 07:50:44 AM
I don't believe that this is true.  Even the highly-dogmatic Dimond Brothers have produced evidence that the Church has in fact permitted this.

It appears the anti-Pope Anacletus II, in 1130 is the precedent case for our current situation.

He was a Jєω cardinal who had bribed his way into the office.  The Vatican archives, unless purged by Rampolla and other masonic-modernist popes, must surely have docuмented the situation?  Definitely "valid Sacraments" from the Jєω pope versus Pope Innocent II were at the center of the controversy.

The Holy See at the time, appears to have struck a compromise on Sacramental validity after Anacletus died and Pope Innocent was re-installed.
This was accomplished with the help of a Catholic army accompanying St. Bernard of Clairvaux.  

The most striking point of this era, is that St. Bernard was heavily lobbying Church authorities in different nations to stand-up against, Anacletus's schism.
You can read about this in his bio in Butler's Lives of the Saints.
 
Sadly, no one today campaigns to overturn the Bergolio schism :facepalm:

Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Incredulous on May 06, 2022, 07:54:04 AM
And St. Vincent Ferrer offered Mass while naming an Antipope.  Were his Masses also sacrilegeous?
Yeah, he was a Saint who made an error backing an anti-Pope.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Incredulous on May 06, 2022, 07:59:28 AM
There's audio of a discussion between Br. Peter and someone discussing the te igitur, which is worth listening to. The basic premise is that this prayer is supposed to show unity with the chair of Peter, not the man occupying it, which is accidental.



Let me ask, in the Canon's unity with the Seat prayer, why does the celebrant have to say the name of the heretic?

He is in union with the Seat of Peter, not the pachamama worshiping anti-pope.


Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: epiphany on May 06, 2022, 08:05:14 AM
Yeah, he was a Saint who made an error backing an anti-Pope.
Thank you for pointing this out.  People quote saints all the time, yet they made mistakes.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 06, 2022, 08:10:22 AM


Let me ask, in the Canon's unity with the Seat prayer, why does the celebrant have to say the name of the heretic?

He is in union with the Seat of Peter, not the pachamama worshiping anti-pope.

The point is that those who are saying Mass una cuм Francesco are doing so because he is the apparent Pope. Otherwise, if a priest is a sede, he certainly is going to skip that part of the te igitur altogether. Both are offering in union with the Holy See regardless, vacant or not.

The priest saying the Mass una cuм Francesco is the one accountable here for his error (again, presuming sedevacantism is true), but not those layfolk assisting whether they believe he is Pope or not. That's the issue here. SGG are trying to make it out that the laity are committing a grave sin in attending these Masses with the Society or Resistance, etc, who say the te igitur una cuм Francesco. Which is, I think, rightly said by Br. Peter, a schismatic attitude during this Crisis on the part of these priests and bishops as they have no authority to bind consciences.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: SeanJohnson on May 06, 2022, 09:07:21 AM
The list is extensive.

Greenwood, Indiana

(https://sspx.org/sites/sspx/files/styles/ankeiler_visual_2/public/media/usa-district/com-priory/in_-_greenwood_-_exterior_2.jpg?itok=shAXI4Aj)
With lawyers and a few pro SSPX members at his side,
Fr. Rostand, tells the Chapel's independent Board to give the SSPX the chapel
or they will open one down the street and put them out of business.

As I was a parishioner at this chapel from 2009-early 2012 (the time period in which the transition from independent to SSPX commenced), I’m in a position to nuance these comments a bit:

The resident priest (Fr. O’Connor) was preparing to retire, and the board was quite naturally actively seeking his replacement/successor.

The SSPX was invited by the board to consider sending a priest, and through then-District Superior Fr. Rostand, at a public meeting to which all the faithful were invited to attend (and which I in fact did attend), Fr. Rostand made a presentation and fielded questions from the faithful.

During the Q/A session, I asked whether  we would ever see Bishop Williamson back in active ministry again (ie., this was at the time when he had been sequestered to the Wimbledon attic), as a few of us were newly concerned about what this sequestration might imply for the future direction the SSPX might take.

At a certain point in the Q/A session, Fr. Rostand declared (paraphrasing from memory) something to the effect that, “If our help is not wanted, I can take my priests and go.  There are plenty of other places looking for priests.” In other words, he did not give the impression of a corporate raider eager for a takeover of a rival.

Anyway, the standard practice was to agree to a one-year probationary period, for each side to get to know the other, before coming to a final board vote.

One if the conditions is that ownership of the property is transferred to the SSPX.  Absolutely, with 20-20 hindsight, one could say that had the process commenced post-2012, some would not have supported the board approval (or perhaps even the board itself would not have approved), but the point here is that whatever may or may not have transpired with independent Chapels being turned over to the SSPX elsewhere, this one happened with the overwhelming support of most of the chapel, and so far as I am aware, most of them have been happy with the results.

Had this all happened in 2013, maybe they would have invited a Resistance priest instead (but even in that case, they would still have wanted ownership of the chapel as a condition for accepting, in order that the faithful not exercise an impertinent leverage over the priest).  I am aware some independent priest who sympathize with the Resistance might not have that precondition, but they put themselves in a precarious position.

As for the assertion that Fr. Rostand threatened to set up shop down the road if ownership was not surrendered, I can’t disprove the veracity of that claim, but it would seem incongruous with the ready willingness to take his priests elsewhere which he exhibited at the Q/A session I attended.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Incredulous on May 06, 2022, 09:35:56 AM
As I was a parishioner at this chapel from 2009-early 2012 (the time period in which the transition from independent to SSPX commenced), I’m in a position to nuance these comments a bit:

The resident priest (Fr. O’Connor) was preparing to retire, and the board was quite naturally actively seeking his replacement/successor.

The SSPX was invited by the board to consider sending a priest, and through then-District Superior Fr. Rostand, at a public meeting to which all the faithful were invited to attend (and which I in fact did attend), Fr. Rostand made a presentation and fielded questions from the faithful.

During the Q/A session, I asked whether  we would ever see Bishop Williamson back in active ministry again (ie., this was at the time when he had been sequestered to the Wimbledon attic), as a few of us were newly concerned about what this sequestration might imply for the future direction the SSPX might take.

At a certain point in the Q/A session, Fr. Rostand declared (paraphrasing from memory) something to the effect that, “If our help is not wanted, I can take my priests and go.  There are plenty of other places looking for priests.” In other words, he did not give the impression of a corporate raider eager for a takeover of a rival.

Anyway, the standard practice was to agree to a one-year probationary period, for each side to get to know the other, before coming to a final board vote.

One if the conditions is that ownership of the property is transferred to the SSPX.  Absolutely, with 20-20 hindsight, one could say that had the process commenced post-2012, some would not have supported the board approval (or perhaps even the board itself would not have approved), but the point here is that whatever may or may not have transpired with independent Chapels being turned over to the SSPX elsewhere, this one happened with the overwhelming support of most of the chapel, and so far as I am aware, most of them have been happy with the results.

Had this all happened in 2013, maybe they would have invited a Resistance priest instead (but even in that case, they would still have wanted ownership of the chapel as a condition for accepting, in order that the faithful not exercise an impertinent leverage over the priest).  I am aware some independent priest who sympathize with the Resistance might not have that precondition, but they put themselves in a precarious position.

As for the assertion that Fr. Rostand threatened to set up shop down the road if ownership was not surrendered, I can’t disprove the veracity of that claim, but it would seem incongruous with the ready willingness to take his priests elsewhere which he exhibited at the Q/A session I attended.

Thanks for the input Sean.

Were you aware of Fr. Rostand's use of lawyers in swaying the decision?
I got it from a reliable source that letters were very intimidating.

I will never buy the idea that Fr. Rostand was not salivating over the idea of nabbing a turn-key chapel worth $1million.
This was a truly independent chapel and the SSPX got it for free.

Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Incredulous on May 06, 2022, 09:51:27 AM


Here we are in 2013, with the SSPX at independent chapel in downtown Santa Clara, CA
(This property is worth $2 million).

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fimg.geocaching.com%2Fwaymarking%2Fdisplay%2F7b31ffe7-0784-4fc9-839c-58ef597ffce7.JPG&f=1&nofb=1)

The SSPX had been invited in to celebrate Mass because their regular independent priest died.

It took a long time to get rid of them.  They tried every trick in the book to get the property. 

They split board and then ingratiated themselves with their board allies.
They even used the threat of withholding Sacraments, because they could not get a promise for the title to the property.

Covid knocked out the SSPX's allies and the Board Chair quietly changed the locks on the doors, effectively banning them from the property.

Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on May 06, 2022, 09:56:00 AM

Here we are in 2013, with the SSPX at independent chapel in downtown Santa Clara, CA
(This property is worth $2 million).

You know they'd sell the property in a minute and send the proceeds to one of their ill-conceived building projects (St. Mary's or the seminary).
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: SeanJohnson on May 06, 2022, 10:03:03 AM
Thanks for the input Sean.

Were you aware of Fr. Rostand's use of lawyers in swaying the decision?
I got it from a reliable source that letters were very intimidating.

I will never buy the idea that Fr. Rostand was not salivating over the idea of nabbing a turn-key chapel worth $1million.
This was a truly independent chapel and the SSPX got it for free.

Hello Incred-

There was certainly interest from the SSPX, or they would not have agreed to a probationary period (eg., With the imminent retirement of Fr. O’Connor, many of the faithful would have made their way 80 miles west to the SSPX’s LaSalette Academy, which then-principal Fr. McMahon desperately wanted to avoid, to keep it a school, and not a mission.  The SSPX also liked the central location, the existence of a rectory, and proximity to an international airport).  

But if you’re on the SSPX side of the table, those are just practical considerations you have to make when deciding how best to utilize your priests.

As regards the existence of threatening legal action (to compel the sale, I’m guessing?), I have no firsthand (or secondhand) knowledge of that.

Reflecting a but more (this was all 10-12 years ago, and we haven’t had any connection to the chapel since, except a rare visit while traveling in the area 2-3 times since), I may vaguely remember that there was a bit of division because of the direction the SSPX might be heading, vis-a-vis Rome, and that in turn may have resulted in extending the probationary term for another year, but you would need to confirm that with someone else, because I’m not sure I’m remembering that correctly).

Am I also vaguely recalling division among the board at the end of this second probationary period, but with the board majority voting to turn over ownership to the Society?

And if that’s the case, if there was legal action on behalf of the Society to enforce the board’s decision?

Isn't/wasn’t TKGS also a parishioner there?  He might be a better person to ask, as, aside from the info in my previous post, I’m not sure how things all ended up (ie., I left in early 2012, and would only have info after that point  which was posted on CI).
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on May 06, 2022, 10:03:41 AM

I will never buy the idea that Fr. Rostand was not salivating over the idea of nabbing a turn-key chapel worth $1million.

Same kind of thing is going on with Father Carley's chapel in Akron OH.  Father is really getting up there in years; I think it's a miracle that he just keeps going.  He's slowed down now where he needs a hand rail on the sanctuary steps to help him get up to the altar and to genuflect.

In any case, he has the church building (holds about 200 and it's packed for Sunday Mass) and a school (could hold 8 grades), plus he owns a couple of nice homes adjacent to the church (well, one is nice the other a fair bit older).  In addition, it's adjacent to a country club with high-price homes on it.  Father also has substantial cash savings.  All told, I'd be surprised if the complex wouldn't be with $2-$3 million.

But recently the SSPX moved St. Peregrine chapel from the far West side of Cleveland down to where it's fairly close to Immaculate Heart in Akron.  They're building an expensive church there (there was already a school) and I think the intent is to turn it into a priory, since they tried to extort $500K from Father Carley, telling him they wouldn't serve his chapel unless he contributed this $500K (half the cost of their priory residence).  That seems like a lot of money for a priory building, and cost of living/building isn't really that high in this part of the country.

I'm 99.9% convinced that it is their intent to sell off Immaculate Heart the second Father Carley passes away and then just tell everyone they have to go up to St. Peregrine.  I really wish Father Carley would look into some other options, and I resigned from the Board of Trustees there rather than sign the papers handing over the chapel to SSPX.  I didn't want my name on the docuмent that sold out the chapel.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: TKGS on May 06, 2022, 10:13:19 AM
And St. Vincent Ferrer offered Mass while naming an Antipope.  Were his Masses also sacrilegeous?
Just playing devil's advocate here:  Was St. Vincent Ferrer offering Mass while naming an apostate who worshipped pagan idols in his Church?

While I do agree that the Bishop Dolan is wrong on the "una cuм" issue, I don't think this example is equivalent to the current situation.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 06, 2022, 10:25:57 AM
Just playing devil's advocate here:  Was St. Vincent Ferrer offering Mass while naming an apostate who worshipped pagan idols in his Church?

While I do agree that the Bishop Dolan is wrong on the "una cuм" issue, I don't think this example is equivalent to the current situation.
It doesn't matter because Benedict was not the Pope, it, by +Dolan and co.'s theory, would still constitute sacrilege. 
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on May 06, 2022, 11:03:21 AM
Just playing devil's advocate here:  Was St. Vincent Ferrer offering Mass while naming an apostate who worshipped pagan idols in his Church?

While I do agree that the Bishop Dolan is wrong on the "una cuм" issue, I don't think this example is equivalent to the current situation.

That isn't really the argument.  It's about unity with the true Church, and not so much the personal crimes of Bergoglio.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: TKGS on May 06, 2022, 11:05:16 AM
It doesn't matter because Benedict was not the Pope, it, by +Dolan and co.'s theory, would still constitute sacrilege.
Neither was the man St. Vincent Ferrar said Mass "una cuм".  I'm not intending here to refute or support Bishop Dolan's theory, just noting that the argument involving St. Vincent Ferrar saying Mass while mentioning someone who is not pope is not equivalent to a priest today saying Mass while mentioning Bergoglio's stage name.

And the "personal crimes" of Bergoglio are really not part of any sedevacantist's argument.  That one is a straw man.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 06, 2022, 11:50:34 AM

Quote
The point is that those who are saying Mass una cuм Francesco are doing so because he is the apparent Pope. Otherwise, if a priest is a sede, he certainly is going to skip that part of the te igitur altogether. Both are offering in union with the Holy See regardless, vacant or not.
The point of saying the pope's name is because catholic unity resides in the pope...who has a name.  The whole idea that one is agreeing with JPII/Benedict/Francis when naming them is stupid and illogical.

Quote
The priest saying the Mass una cuм Francesco is the one accountable here for his error (again, presuming sedevacantism is true), but not those layfolk assisting whether they believe he is Pope or not. That's the issue here. SGG are trying to make it out that the laity are committing a grave sin in attending these Masses with the Society or Resistance, etc, who say the te igitur una cuм Francesco. Which is, I think, rightly said by Br. Peter, a schismatic attitude during this Crisis on the part of these priests and bishops as they have no authority to bind consciences.
The "una cuм" issue is only a sin if you KNOW that the person you mention is an anti-pope.  For example, if you were living in the days of Pope St Pius X and you went to a priest for mass who openly stated he was praying in union with some random "pope michael".  This would be schism.


No priest who mentions JPII/Benedict/Francis is schismatic because the matter is not settled and no one can definitively say that these men aren't popes (even in the temporal/govt sense only).  NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE.  This is why St Vincent Ferrer wasn't wrong or any other saint who lived through a papal crisis in history (of which there have been many).  They aren't wrong because IT'S UNCLEAR. 

If things are unclear and the intent is to pray for the Holy Father then there is no schism.  The intent of schism must be present for there to be sin.  No Trad has/can prove sedevacantism 100% so the "una cuм" controversy is an uncharitable, divisive, colossal nothing burger.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 06, 2022, 12:10:43 PM
If things are unclear and the intent is to pray for the Holy Father then there is no schism.  The intent of schism must be present for there to be sin.  No Trad has/can prove sedevacantism 100% so the "una cuм" controversy is an uncharitable, divisive, colossal nothing burger.
I often wonder if there was an implicit desire to funnel more sede-leaning trads to non una cuм chapels to bolster their coffers (knowing that trads are generally more generous with their tithes). I'm only speculating here, it most likely isn't the case.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 06, 2022, 12:38:26 PM
Quote
I often wonder if there was an implicit desire to funnel more sede-leaning trads to non una cuм chapels to bolster their coffers (knowing that trads are generally more generous with their tithes). I'm only speculating here, it most likely isn't the case.
It is definitely an attempt to make the theoretical into the practical and to make the faithful "choose".  It is an attempt (to use a marketing term) to "differentiate" your "Trad Product" from the others.  To try to build a "core customer".  Once you have a core base, then you try to grow your market.  This brings you many things - $, group size, support, popularity, etc.


I hate to be this cynical but the new-sspx (sedevacantism is wrong) does the same thing and so does the indult (those not "under rome" are wrong).  In the beginning of Tradition (in the 70s/80s) it was not like this (for the most part).  Trads were in survival mode and you when it's life-or-death, you make friends with anyone who can help.  Priests were thankful that they had faithful to rent hotel rooms, buy church supplies (candles, missals, etc) and buy buildings for mass.  And the faithful were thankful for a valid priest and Mass.

Even Fr Wathen, who theologically disagreed with the sspx (on feeneyism) and on the extreme sedevacantism said and wrote openly to all his laity (paraphrasing) - You must attend Mass on Sunday and Holy Days.  No matter what, you owe this to God and obedience to Church law.  No matter how much you disagree with this or that Trad priest, if that is your only option for mass, you go there.  If you don't, you commit a sin.

Now we have the opposite where the new-sspx and dogmatic sedes are continually implying that to attend a mass at the "other side" is morally wrong.  Now if you pin them down, they'll say "No, no, you have to go to mass to a valid priest".  But then, next sunday from the pulpit or in some conversation, they continue to bash/criticize the "other side".

Unfortunately, over a period of time, what this does is it de-sensitizes the faithful to the priest's condemnations of truly immoral masses (i.e. in my opinion...indult/new mass).  If the priest is constantly "crying wolf" over legitimate Trad priests/masses (and the faithful see right through this stuff), then when the Trad priest rightly condemns the new mass/indult, the laity are more apt to be tempted to say "Oh well, here goes Fr again...condemning some other chapel/priest." 

In the Trad world, the "good ol days" were the 70s/80s, before the indult, when the battle lines were clearer, when mass/sacraments were either Traditional or V2, when *most* Trads had a clear enemy and *mostly* were united in the True Faith.  Alas, those days are gone.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Incredulous on May 06, 2022, 02:21:44 PM


(https://i1.wp.com/www.catholicgentleman.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Mass-for-donors-Cn-Stein.jpg?ssl=1)

Most merciful Father we humbly pray and beseech Thee, through Jesus Christ They Son, our Lord, that Thou wilt be pleased to receive and bless these gifts, these offerings, these holy unblemished sacrifices.

We offer them to Thee in the first place for Thy Holy Catholic Church: vouchsafe, throughout the whole world, to keep her in peace, to watch over her in unity and to guide her, in union with N____, Thy servant our Pope, N___ our bishop and all right believing teachers of the Catholic apostolic faith.




Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Incredulous on May 06, 2022, 02:26:43 PM
You know they'd sell the property in a minute and send the proceeds to one of their ill-conceived building projects (St. Mary's or the seminary).

Early on, one of the Board members actually asked Fr. Wegner straight to his face:

"Father, if we signed the property over to you this week, what would stop you from selling it next week?"

There was no response from Fr. Wegner.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Incredulous on May 06, 2022, 02:37:49 PM
The point of saying the pope's name is because catholic unity resides in the pope...who has a name.  The whole idea that one is agreeing with JPII/Benedict/Francis when naming them is stupid and illogical.
The "una cuм" issue is only a sin if you KNOW that the person you mention is an anti-pope.  For example, if you were living in the days of Pope St Pius X and you went to a priest for mass who openly stated he was praying in union with some random "pope michael".  This would be schism.


No priest who mentions JPII/Benedict/Francis is schismatic because the matter is not settled and no one can definitively say that these men aren't popes (even in the temporal/govt sense only).  NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE.  This is why St Vincent Ferrer wasn't wrong or any other saint who lived through a papal crisis in history (of which there have been many).  They aren't wrong because IT'S UNCLEAR. 

If things are unclear and the intent is to pray for the Holy Father then there is no schism.  The intent of schism must be present for there to be sin.  No Trad has/can prove sedevacantism 100% so the "una cuм" controversy is an uncharitable, divisive, colossal nothing burger.


Pax, In all honestly, we have plenty of information to know we have an anti-Pope.

We know Benedict XVI still claims remnant Papal authority, and that's technically all that's needed to meet the anti-pope definition.

The status of the whole modernist regime is unclear and undecided because the ʝʊdɛօ-masons have corrupted and bought-off the Holy See.
It was the same at the time of the Jєω-Pope Anacletus II.  He had bribed most of the Holy See.  No canonical moves could be made against him.

But anti-pope Anacletus II was running a schism.  And St. Bernard Claivaux rallied against it.

Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 06, 2022, 03:04:29 PM
It depends how you define “anti pope”.  Sure the V2 pope are heretics.  But on the other hand, they are still the VISIBLE and PERSONAL representatives of the Church.  If you asked any non-catholic who the pope is, they would say “Francis”.  That’s the point - Francis is who people associate with the Church.  He’s the leader, even if a heretic, (or possibly) a fraud.  He’s still in charge of the govt of the Vatican.  

That’s the whole purpose of the Te Igitur - to pray in Union with the papacy.  Whoever represents the papacy.  Heretic or not, that’s Francis. 
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Incredulous on May 06, 2022, 03:13:45 PM

Let me ask:  

What if the celebrant substituted, “the true Pope” and “the true Bishop” instead. of uttering the names of the schism pope and his bishop?

Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 06, 2022, 03:19:59 PM
Let me ask: 

What if the celebrant substituted, “the true Pope” and “the true Bishop” instead. of uttering the names of the schism pope and his bishop?
If the celebrant doesn't believe Francis is the Pope, then he omits that portion of the te igitur. Which is exactly what sede priests do.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Giacomo on May 06, 2022, 03:58:39 PM
I too must say that Ladislaus’ reprinting of Laszlo Szijarto’s “Open Letter to Trad Clergy” was right on the mark.  And it is no accident that this excerpt appears on this CathInfo thread: the abuses pointed out by Szijarto apply, almost in every case, to Daniel Dolan -- and to others as well.  (Excepting Dolan’s most ardent admirers, I’m sure his name was forefront in the minds of many of those who read Szijarto’s words.)   And, sadly, what Szijarto pointed out – passing off private opinions as “dogma” (and refusing the sacraments who “violate” them – or even “excommunicating” them – has only served to DESTROY the traditional movement.
 
And that is why eulogizing Daniel Dolan as a great “pastor,” as one of his clergy (Stephen McKenna) did at his funeral, will only perpetuate the misconception that Dolan was a benevolent shepherd to his flock.  In his eulogy, McKenna talked about Dolan’s “charity,’ and of his special devotion to St. Therese of Lisieux.  Well, this is really ironic, because it was another “Therese” – Terri Schiavo – for whom Dolan had ABSOLUTELY NO CHARITY.  And where was Dolan’s “charity” for the children who were brutalized at SGG’s school back in 2008-2009?  (Denying parents’ demands for corrective action, Dolan dismissed their complaints – yet condoned the principal’s sons watching porn on the school computer as “boys will be boys.”)  And when one of those sons impregnated an SGG student, he condoned that too.  (The girl, of course, was condemned, but the boy suffered no remedial action.)
 
There are, of course, many other examples of Dolan’s “charity” – but time does not permit.  Let me also point out that while all of McKenna’s examples of his late pastor’s “charity” are unverifiable, all of the examples I have given are DOcuмENTED – most coming from Dolan’s (and Cekada’s) own lips.
 
It is really unfortunate for McKenna that he waxed so poetically about Dolan in his eulogy -- doing his “Academy Award” best to emulate the latter’s affected rhetoric and dramatic pauses (not to mention, his futile attempts at erudition: he mispronounced every French expression he tried to use), because – if he thought this was an audition for his taking over as SGG’s next “bishop” – he was sadly mistaken:  Charles McGuire got the nod!  Yes, McGuire was (apparently) Dolan’s choice to “play bishop” at SGG. (Interesting…  McKenna was always considered the front-runner.)
 
This must be a big blow to McKenna’s ego, because -- although McKenna’s “formation” was pretty poor -- McGuire’s is even worse.  (He was trained at MHT, which is about as prestigious as a “run of the mill” boys’ industrial school.)  McGuire has an inferior education (both secular and clerical), and he has no “social skills.”  And he certainly hasn’t Dolan’s charisma (albeit overly saccharine and artificial).  Dolan was the glue that held SGG together.  The eminently under-qualified McGuire has none of that.
 
Daniel Dolan is dead.  It is, of course, right and proper to pray for his soul (as it is to pray for ANYONE’S soul).  But it is NOT right and proper to “whitewash” him, as McKenna did in his eulogy, with his fanciful, fictional account of Dolan’s “charity” -- and his endorsement of Dolan’s FAILED POLICY – one that has torn SGG asunder, and driven half of its congregation away.  McGuire had better not follow Dolan’s failed policy – one that has jeopardized not only SGG, but Traddieland itself (and one that will only hasten Traddieland’s downward death spiral in which it already finds itself). 

Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Incredulous on May 06, 2022, 04:17:17 PM

Bishop Dolan’s death topic is fascinating.
:popcorn:
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on May 06, 2022, 04:18:04 PM
Early on, one of the Board members actually asked Fr. Wegner straight to his face:

"Father, if we signed the property over to you this week, what would stop you from selling it next week?"

There was no response from Fr. Wegner.

I recommended to Father Carley to put a "no sale" clause into the chapel property handover contract.  So he tried that, and (as I knew they would), rejected it.  They refused to accept that condition.  I asked Father to do that knowing SSPX would reject it to hopefully persuade Father that they're likely just to sell the property.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 06, 2022, 08:13:16 PM

Quote
What if the celebrant substituted, “the true Pope” and “the true Bishop” instead. 
Quote
of uttering the names of the schism pope and his bishop?
Strictly speaking, a priest shouldn’t make any changes to the rubrics unless the bishop authorized him to.  It’s a temptation from the devil (in my opinion) to “do your own thing”.  It’s totally against the whole purpose of rubrics and church authority.  


And, it’s also making a mountain out of a molehill because it’s a temptation to re-interpret the prayer to mean more than it actually does.  That’s how I see it. 
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on May 06, 2022, 09:18:57 PM
If I were a priest, I would say the una cuм famulo tuo papa nostro but leave out the name of Bergoglio.  That signifies the formal intent to submit to the papacy while not polluting the Sacred Canon with the name of the heresiarch (if not apostate) Bergoglio.  Pope is listed among the "guardians/custodians" of the faith.  I couldn't put Bergoglio's name in that list with a straight face.  I'd feel as if I were injecting a lie into the most sacred action of the Church.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Jr1991 on May 06, 2022, 10:34:09 PM
The list is extensive.

Greenwood, Indiana

(https://sspx.org/sites/sspx/files/styles/ankeiler_visual_2/public/media/usa-district/com-priory/in_-_greenwood_-_exterior_2.jpg?itok=shAXI4Aj)
With lawyers and a few pro SSPX members at his side,
Fr. Rostand, tells the Chapel's independent Board to give the SSPX the chapel
or they will open one down the street and put them out of business.

Sad. That looks like a beautiful little chapel
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Jr1991 on May 06, 2022, 10:41:06 PM
This is what the SSPX does though right?  I listened a Bp Dolan interview from several years ago and he said SSPX would just toss priests to the wind if they didn't toe the party line or had any issues.

I had an independent priest tell me that, yes, that is what the SSPX does. I was surprised by this one, given that the chapel they sold(St. Philomena) was in the middle of a fundraiser to build a new chapel on the same site they sold. So imagine how the people who donated money felt when they were duped into giving money for a chapel that now will reside(maybe neve or years from now) in another county.

Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Jr1991 on May 06, 2022, 10:42:27 PM
I recommended to Father Carley to put a "no sale" clause into the chapel property handover contract.  So he tried that, and (as I knew they would), rejected it.  They refused to accept that condition.  I asked Father to do that knowing SSPX would reject it to hopefully persuade Father that they're likely just to sell the property.

That tells you everything you need to know. 
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Jr1991 on May 06, 2022, 11:08:24 PM
It is all very confusing. Why would the SSPX sell-off paid-off chapels in high-priced areas of the country--It makes absolutely no sense.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: gladius_veritatis on May 06, 2022, 11:13:30 PM
Why would the SSPX sell-off paid-off chapels in high-priced areas of the country--It makes absolutely no sense.

Pure profit is actually a rather enticing motive, especially during the final stage of an historical real estate bubble.  Whether or not that is the case is another matter, of course.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Jr1991 on May 06, 2022, 11:33:45 PM
Yes, I would agree, but the parishioners will incur debt that will eventually have to be paid. They (SSPX) are more interested in building structures than saving souls. I took a look at the Church they are constructing in Kansas, and the amount of money spent is staggering.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Jr1991 on May 07, 2022, 12:14:51 AM
Fr. Jenkins doubles down on the late Bishop Dolan. Start at the 16:00 minute mark. 

https://www.wcbohio.com/

Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Incredulous on May 07, 2022, 05:28:35 AM
Fr. Jenkins doubles down on the late Bishop Dolan. Start at the 16:00 minute mark.

https://www.wcbohio.com/
:facepalm:
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Incredulous on May 07, 2022, 05:32:55 AM

Strictly speaking, a priest shouldn’t make any changes to the rubrics unless the bishop authorized him to.  It’s a temptation from the devil (in my opinion) to “do your own thing”.  It’s totally against the whole purpose of rubrics and church authority. 


And, it’s also making a mountain out of a molehill because it’s a temptation to re-interpret the prayer to mean more than it actually does.  That’s how I see it.

Hold that thought…!
I want to come back to this point you’re making.

IMHO, This hits in the essence of Catholic tradition and the kosher form of neo-SSPX tradition.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Stubborn on May 07, 2022, 06:25:11 AM
If I were a priest, I would say the una cuм famulo tuo papa nostro but leave out the name of Bergoglio.  That signifies the formal intent to submit to the papacy while not polluting the Sacred Canon with the name of the heresiarch (if not apostate) Bergoglio.  Pope is listed among the "guardians/custodians" of the faith.  I couldn't put Bergoglio's name in that list with a straight face.  I'd feel as if I were injecting a lie into the most sacred action of the Church.
It is not our right to decide to change by omission any thing or any part of the Mass - that's precisely what the criminals did with the NO service.

Incred posted:
We offer them to Thee in the first place for Thy Holy Catholic Church: vouchsafe, throughout the whole world, to keep her in peace, to watch over her in unity and to guide her, in union with N____, Thy servant our Pope, N___ our bishop and all right believing teachers of the Catholic apostolic faith.

The prayer is the offering the gifts, first of all for the Church. So the priest is praying first of all for the Church, and at the same time although mentioned second, for the pope and bishop and all the faithful.

So the priest is praying for the Church, pope, bishop and all the faithful. He is not praying that he is in union, agrees, supports or promotes a heretic. What harm does it do to pray for the pope in the Mass - even if he were not the pope?

"This famous Una cuм of the sedevacantists...ridiculous! ridiculous .... it’s ridiculous, it's ridiculous. In fact it is not at all the meaning of the prayer"
- Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, retreat at St-Michel en Brenne, April 1st, 1989
 
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 07, 2022, 06:47:05 AM
Fr. Jenkins doubles down on the late Bishop Dolan. Start at the 16:00 minute mark.

https://www.wcbohio.com/
"I did not know the position of Fr. Dolan on the vax .... why would I know that?"
Then WHY WOULD YOU PUBLICLY SPECULATE THAT HE DIED FROM IT? :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:


Quote
"The SSPV does not accept the legitimacy and accept the validity of the Thuc bishops"
"I refer to Abp. Vigano as Archbishop Vigano because that is his public persona...that is how he publishes."
And Bp. Dolan published and presented himself publicly as BISHOP Dolan even though Fr. Jenkins doubts both his consecration as Bishop and doubts the validity of Novus Ordo consecrations. Yet, he chooses to refer to Vigano as "Archbishop", making the distinction that he is a Novus Ordo Archbishop, but does not offer Bishop Dolan the same respect because his anti-Thuc position makes him choose not to, even though he views both as doubtful or invalid in their titles. It's hypocritical.

I'm very disappointed in Fr. Jenkins's response and how he's handling this.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on May 07, 2022, 06:51:26 AM
Fr. Jenkins doubles down on the late Bishop Dolan. Start at the 16:00 minute mark.

https://www.wcbohio.com/
How pathetic.

Someone should send him a link to either a Bishop Dolan sermon or writing that proves that person was correct in stating his position on the vaxx.  Maybe then he'd retract his calumnious remarks.

Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on May 07, 2022, 06:57:12 AM
"I did not know the position of Fr. Dolan on the vax .... why would I know that?"
Then WHY WOULD YOU PUBLICLY SPECULATE THAT HE DIED FROM IT? :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

And then he compares Bishop Dolan to an employee who was against the vaxx, but was forced to take the vaxx and died from it.  
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 07, 2022, 06:58:49 AM
And then he compares Bishop Dolan to an employee who was against the vaxx, but was forced to take the vaxx and died from it. 
You could tell by his answer that he realized the error, but rather than humbly apologize on camera for the mistake he continued to speculate and dismiss it as personal ignorance. Shameful.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on May 07, 2022, 07:03:15 AM
You could tell by his answer that he realized the error, but rather than humbly apologize on camera for the mistake he continued to speculate and dismiss it as personal ignorance. Shameful.
Yes, his body language says all.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on May 07, 2022, 07:55:13 AM
Yes, I would agree, but the parishioners will incur debt that will eventually have to be paid. They (SSPX) are more interested in building structures than saving souls. I took a look at the Church they are constructing in Kansas, and the amount of money spent is staggering.

Not only that but that abomination of a seminary.  FIFTY MILLION dollars.  They could have built a terrific addition onto the seminary in Winona for 1-2 million tops.  There was plenty a land to expand on.  But running out of room was just an excuse.  They only ran out of room because they expanded to include a minor seminary, but again a modest addition to the building could have solved that issue.

I thought that Traditional Catholics believe that the Church will be restored and the Conciliar properties will be returned to Catholic use.

SSPX is implicitly behaving as if the Crisis situation will continue indefinitely as a “New Normal” ... so basically the V2 ecclesiology of partial communion.

Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on May 07, 2022, 09:21:17 AM
"I did not know the position of Fr. Dolan on the vax .... why would I know that?"
Then WHY WOULD YOU PUBLICLY SPECULATE THAT HE DIED FROM IT? :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

And Bp. Dolan published and presented himself publicly as BISHOP Dolan even though Fr. Jenkins doubts both his consecration as Bishop and doubts the validity of Novus Ordo consecrations. Yet, he chooses to refer to Vigano as "Archbishop", making the distinction that he is a Novus Ordo Archbishop, but does not offer Bishop Dolan the same respect because his anti-Thuc position makes him choose not to, even though he views both as doubtful or invalid in their titles. It's hypocritical.

I'm very disappointed in Fr. Jenkins's response and how he's handling this.

I did say that he likely didn't know Bishop Dolan's position on the jab and that he was just thinking out loud based on the association we have between the jab and cardiac issues.  I have to admit that whenever someone dies of a heart attack or stroke these days, the first thing that pops into my mind is to begin wondering about the jab.  That thought did cross my mind also when Bishop Dolan died, but then took a second to recall his extreme opposition to it.  I only knew about it due to that video from Bishop Sanborn in response to Bishop Dolan's having excoriated them for being soft on the jab.

Bishop Sanborn has in fact been soft on the jab, and, as Father Jenkins mentioned, given the surprising position that Bishop Dolan took regarding the Schiavo case and his long-time association and alliance with Bishop Sanborn, I don't think it's obvious that Bishop Dolan would have been against the jab.  And I believe Father Jenkins that he hasn't really kept up with dispute between Bishop Sanborn and Dolan.

Closest Father Jenkins came to an apology was to say it may have been imprudent to think out loud and to speculate on the subject.  He probably should have apologized for speculating about it instead of just saying that it was imprudent.

It's not really calumny, though, in that it's a disputed question (evidently) among Traditional Catholics whether the jab is immoral.  So, for instance, Bishop Sanborn and SSPX and some others are really soft on the jab and think it's justifiable.  So this is not the same thing as speculating about something that's clearly sinful, say, wondering out loud if Bishop Dolan was a pedophile.  THAT would be clear calumny.  Here, the question is speculating about what position Bishop Dolan might have taken regarding the jab.  Referring to it as calumny begs the question that anyone who takes the jab is guilty of mortal sin.  I don't believe that at all.  I have formed my own conscience in such a way that I would consider myself guilty of mortal sin if I took the jab, but I also cannot impose my conscience on others.  I know some people who have taken the jab and don't consider them guilty of grave sin.  They were parroting back the "remote material" stuff promoted by SSPX.  They're certaintly guilty of stupidity, but that's as far as I woud take it.  There's no ruling on the matter by the Church, so I refuse to impose my conscience on them.  I am very consistent and adamant about that.

So I do think this is more a question of mistaken speculation regarding Bishop Dolan's theological conclusions regarding the jab than a question of accusing someone of committing a sin.  I wouldn't accuse Bishop Sanborn or the various SSPX priests of mortal sin if they were to take the jab, since they have formed their conscieces differently.  I think they're wrong and that it's objectively a grave sin, but I am not their judge.

Let's say Bishop Fellay suddently died of a heart attack.  Wouldn't we all begin speculating about whether he took the jab?  Of course we would,.  That's not slander nor calumny.  Even if he had taken the jab, we'd hold +Fellay guilty of bad moral theology, but not mortal sin, as that would, to repeat, entail begging the question regarding the moral status of the jab and then imposing that opinion on the consciences of others.

Now, Father Jenkins admirably denounced dogmatic sedevacantists for imposing their positions on other people's consciences.  But, alas, he and the SSPV do the same thing by imposing their theological conclusions regarding the +Thuc line on others.  He also claimed that they were not "Catholic" bishops even if they were valid.  Where does he get off making that claim?  Sure, SOME of the +Thuc bishops were associated with the CMRI, but not all, especially the +McKenna line.  But even with the CMRI, where does Father Jenkins get off declaring CMRI not to be Catholic?  It's based solely on Schuckhardt's initial assocation with the Old Catholics, but the CMRI assert that the Old Catholic bishop had made an abjuration of error before ordaining / consecrating Shuckhardt.  And, even if he didn't, receiving Orders from a non-Catholic does not inherently make someone a non-Catholic.  So SSPV have been arrogating unto themselves the Church's authority in imposing their theological position about CMRI and the Thuc line on other people's consciences.  So Father is in fact guilty of that which he denounces.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on May 07, 2022, 09:25:33 AM
I believe that the outrage over Father Jenkins' speculation entails a latent assumption that taking the jab is a grave sin.  That's why I am not nearly as outraged.  I put it in the same category as wondering whether some Traditional Catholic might sometimes attend a Novus Ordo Mass.  I think it's wrong to go to the Novus Ordo Mass, but I also see that I have no authority to impose that on someone else's conscience and would not impute mortal sin to someone who attended the NOM.  They reached different theological conclusions about the matter than I have.  I will argue that they're wrong and that it's objectively a grave matter, but I'm not going to judge their state of soul over something that has not been determined by the Church's authority.

This is completely different than speculating openly, say, whether some married man is committing adultery.  And I believe that those who are outraged by Father Jenkins' speculation in their minds somehow lump taking the jab into this same category, of someone committing what is clearly and obviously a grave sin.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on May 07, 2022, 01:53:07 PM
And here we go [approx minute 9 or so]:

http://www.sgg.org/2021/07/18/three-moral-questions/

Will Fr Jenkins apologize and retract now?  I won't hold my breath.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 07, 2022, 02:37:06 PM
This is completely different than speculating openly, say, whether some married man is committing adultery.  And I believe that those who are outraged by Father Jenkins' speculation in their minds somehow lump taking the jab into this same category, of someone committing what is clearly and obviously a grave sin.
I'm "outraged" because he was willfully ignorant about the matter of +Dolan's position on it and then decided to go on air and "openly speculate" about whether or not the jab was what did him in. All it would've taken is five minutes to go to SGG's website and find out +Dolan's position on the jab before opening his mouth and spreading rumors about his cause of death.

And then, when confronted with an email correcting his error, he still doubles-down and insists on claiming ignorance when he could've remained quiet on the matter in the first place.

As for the jab being a grave sin, I'm on the fence. I don't personally trust it given the connections to abortion, the political push for it and the risk of adverse side effects. But I'm also still skeptical about it being some sort of tool to cull the population or sterilize people when I know numerous people, and several relatives, who have since conceived and have healthy pregnancies post-jab/booster or are perfectly healthy going on close to a year later.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on May 07, 2022, 02:52:11 PM
I'm "outraged" because he was willfully ignorant about the matter of +Dolan's position on it and then decided to go on air and "openly speculate" about whether or not the jab was what did him in. All it would've taken is five minutes to go to SGG's website and find out +Dolan's position on the jab before opening his mouth and spreading rumors about his cause of death.

And then, when confronted with an email correcting his error, he still doubles-down and insists on claiming ignorance when he could've remained quiet on the matter in the first place.

As for the jab being a grave sin, I'm on the fence. I don't personally trust it given the connections to abortion, the political push for it and the risk of adverse side effects. But I'm also still skeptical about it being some sort of tool to cull the population or sterilize people when I know numerous people, and several relatives, who have since conceived and have healthy pregnancies post-jab/booster or are perfectly healthy going on close to a year later.
Exactly.  No one needs to believe the jab is a mortal sin to be outraged by Fr Jenkins' actions.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on May 07, 2022, 06:16:30 PM
Meh, your outrage is out of line and excessive.  Father Jenkins was speculating about a matter that would not have been a serious sin on Bishop Dolan's part (given that the morality of the jab is a disputed question).  It's no different than were he to have speculated about whether Bishop Dolan had started permitting Feeneyites to communion at SGG.

You need to separate your own personal conclusion about the jab being gravely sinful from the equation to have an objective view of the matter.  2V, furthermore, has to separate out the SSPV's (admittedly unjust) animosity against the CMRI and +Thuc line from her perspective.

My biggest problem with SSPV, including Father Jenkins, is their imposition of their own theological opinions regarding CMRI and +Thuc line on the faithful.  I don't even care that they have an opinion on the matter, as they're entitled to have an opinion.  Where I have issues is imposing this on the consciences of other Catholics under pain of withholding the Sacraments.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Giacomo on May 19, 2022, 06:00:39 PM
Post #185 (by Ladislauus) struck a harmonious chord in my mind, especially what it said about traddie priests and bishops having no authority whatsoever, etc.  This, of course, is what the blog Pistrina Liturgica has been pointing for over a decade (and, although not in such a technically superior way, the Lay Pulpit blog as well).  But, after pondering Ladislaus’ post a whiles, it also struck me that, while he was being deservedly applauded for what he said in his post, “Bocca della Verità” (who had posted several times on the “Dolan vs. Sanborn” thread on this website) was BANNED from the website for saying essentially the same thing.

Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 19, 2022, 06:39:36 PM
It seems Bocca cares quite a bit about his banning since he "sent" you (as if you and he were not the same person) to post about such an "unjust" banning here. (Did it detract from online traffic to your calumnious blog?)

The thing is, this is first and foremost an SSPX-Resistance forum, not a sedevacantist, or Catholic fringe forum. You (or Bocca's) disrespectful reference to the good Bishop Williamson, being the head of the Resistance, as anything but Bishop solidify Matthew's decision to ban you. Furthermore, Bocca's posts didn't really contribute much else than to provide a verbose muddying of the already murky waters of traditional Catholic ecclesiology.

Second, Matthew owns the forum and he is free to ban whosoever he wishes, justly or unjustly.

Third, Lad's endorsement of the idea of traditional clergy having no authority is not at all the same as your "defrocking" of traditional clergy by refusing to refer to them with their specific titles.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Matthew on May 19, 2022, 08:24:18 PM
Giacomo has been banned -- for everything.

In particular, for being a fool. He is so blinded by his "side" that he must needs attack those outside his cult/clique/group.

He decided to conflate the fundamental lack of authority that ALL Trad bishops have, with the real fact of possessing Episcopal power and orders itself!
Yes, every Trad bishop who isn't in formal schism (who doesn't pretend to jurisdiction "in competition" with other Roman Catholic bishops) is only an "auxiliary" or basically a sacrament-dispenser, for the good of the Faithful and the Church in general. The Church needs priests. The Faithful need Confirmation. Holy Oils are needed.

But although Trad bishops are vested with no formal authority from the Pope, that doesn't mean they aren't bishops! Or that they shouldn't be referred to as such.

Giacomo blathers on about how intelligent his side is, but he's a complete moron about how Church authority and Holy Orders work.

And he's a complete tool for "his side". 
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: bodeens on May 19, 2022, 09:21:03 PM
Giacomo has been banned -- for everything.

In particular, for being a fool. He is so blinded by his "side" that he must needs attack those outside his cult/clique/group.

He decided to conflate the fundamental lack of authority that ALL Trad bishops have, with the real fact of possessing Episcopal power and orders itself!
Yes, every Trad bishop who isn't in formal schism (who doesn't pretend to jurisdiction "in competition" with other Roman Catholic bishops) is only an "auxiliary" or basically a sacrament-dispenser, for the good of the Faithful and the Church in general. The Church needs priests. The Faithful need Confirmation. Holy Oils are needed.

But although Trad bishops are vested with no formal authority from the Pope, that doesn't mean they aren't bishops! Or that they shouldn't be referred to as such.

Giacomo blathers on about how intelligent his side is, but he's a complete moron about how Church authority and Holy Orders work.

And he's a complete tool for "his side".
You mean... Mr. Giacomo
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Attracta on May 20, 2022, 10:25:46 AM
I must respectfully disagree with Matthew.  In my and my son's reading (he's a priest of the Society),
...
Nowhere did poor Giacomo say that traditional bishops, even if consecrated without a mandate, did not  possess the sacramental powers of the order of the episcopate. He simply vindicated a former forum member's thesis that bishops consecrated outside the visible Church structure had no legal right to the vesture and style granted to prelates by the Popes.


Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Matthew on May 20, 2022, 11:05:39 AM
I must respectfully disagree with Matthew.  In my and my son's reading (he's a priest of the Society),
...
Nowhere did poor Giacomo say that traditional bishops, even if consecrated without a mandate, did not  possess the sacramental powers of the order of the episcopate. He simply vindicated a former forum member's thesis that bishops consecrated outside the visible Church structure had no legal right to the vesture and style granted to prelates by the Popes.

Sorry, he's just wrong.

Sacrament-dispenser bishops without jurisdiction, validly and morally consecrated for the good of the Faithful and of the Church during this Crisis are certainly Bishops, and should be treated as such.

The ONLY difference between these Trad bishops, all consecrated without a Papal mandate, and normal bishops is JURISDICTION (authority). Trad bishops have no explicit jurisdiction conferred on them merely by the fact of their consecration. Jurisdiction only comes directly from the Pope. So Trad bishops aren't "married" to any particular diocese (what the episcopal ring represents, by the way).

If it were proper to refer to Bishops as "Mr." instead of "Bishop" or even "Father" for some technicality or obscure reason, then I would have been taught that at the seminary. It's not like I don't know what I'm talking about.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Minnesota on May 20, 2022, 11:20:17 AM
I must respectfully disagree with Matthew.  In my and my son's reading (he's a priest of the Society),
...
Nowhere did poor Giacomo say that traditional bishops, even if consecrated without a mandate, did not  possess the sacramental powers of the order of the episcopate. He simply vindicated a former forum member's thesis that bishops consecrated outside the visible Church structure had no legal right to the vesture and style granted to prelates by the Popes.
Yet your son was ordained a priest forever by the hands of a bishop consecrated himself outside the visible Church structure, yes? All 3 of the current bishops of the Society were consecrated as such intentionally by +Lefebvre.
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: 2Vermont on May 20, 2022, 03:33:15 PM
I must respectfully disagree with Matthew.  In my and my son's reading (he's a priest of the Society),
...
Nowhere did poor Giacomo say that traditional bishops, even if consecrated without a mandate, did not  possess the sacramental powers of the order of the episcopate. He simply vindicated a former forum member's thesis that bishops consecrated outside the visible Church structure had no legal right to the vesture and style granted to prelates by the Popes.
You're confusing validity with liceity. Even if bishops are ILLICIT, they should be called "Bishop", not "Mr." because their orders are VALID.

Now, Bishop Dolan has died.  But will this thread die?
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Minnesota on May 20, 2022, 05:37:20 PM
Honestly, I don't believe that this is a real person... Part of the whole MO of the SSPX was working against Rome. It was a big enough deal that many priests who were ordained by Lefebvre left to join Rome and that became the Fraternity of St. Peter. Why would a priest speak against the whole reason he is ordained a priest?
Title: Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
Post by: Ladislaus on May 20, 2022, 07:39:33 PM
I must respectfully disagree with Matthew.  In my and my son's reading (he's a priest of the Society),

Wow, what are they teaching in SSPX seminaries these days?  This probably goes hand in hand with the notion that +Fellay and SSPX have jurisdiction, which makes them good, but the Resistance and SVs are bad and schismatic.