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Author Topic: Bp Daniel Dolan has died  (Read 15414 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
« Reply #240 on: May 06, 2022, 12:38:26 PM »
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    I often wonder if there was an implicit desire to funnel more sede-leaning trads to non una cuм chapels to bolster their coffers (knowing that trads are generally more generous with their tithes). I'm only speculating here, it most likely isn't the case.
    It is definitely an attempt to make the theoretical into the practical and to make the faithful "choose".  It is an attempt (to use a marketing term) to "differentiate" your "Trad Product" from the others.  To try to build a "core customer".  Once you have a core base, then you try to grow your market.  This brings you many things - $, group size, support, popularity, etc.


    I hate to be this cynical but the new-sspx (sedevacantism is wrong) does the same thing and so does the indult (those not "under rome" are wrong).  In the beginning of Tradition (in the 70s/80s) it was not like this (for the most part).  Trads were in survival mode and you when it's life-or-death, you make friends with anyone who can help.  Priests were thankful that they had faithful to rent hotel rooms, buy church supplies (candles, missals, etc) and buy buildings for mass.  And the faithful were thankful for a valid priest and Mass.

    Even Fr Wathen, who theologically disagreed with the sspx (on feeneyism) and on the extreme sedevacantism said and wrote openly to all his laity (paraphrasing) - You must attend Mass on Sunday and Holy Days.  No matter what, you owe this to God and obedience to Church law.  No matter how much you disagree with this or that Trad priest, if that is your only option for mass, you go there.  If you don't, you commit a sin.

    Now we have the opposite where the new-sspx and dogmatic sedes are continually implying that to attend a mass at the "other side" is morally wrong.  Now if you pin them down, they'll say "No, no, you have to go to mass to a valid priest".  But then, next sunday from the pulpit or in some conversation, they continue to bash/criticize the "other side".

    Unfortunately, over a period of time, what this does is it de-sensitizes the faithful to the priest's condemnations of truly immoral masses (i.e. in my opinion...indult/new mass).  If the priest is constantly "crying wolf" over legitimate Trad priests/masses (and the faithful see right through this stuff), then when the Trad priest rightly condemns the new mass/indult, the laity are more apt to be tempted to say "Oh well, here goes Fr again...condemning some other chapel/priest." 

    In the Trad world, the "good ol days" were the 70s/80s, before the indult, when the battle lines were clearer, when mass/sacraments were either Traditional or V2, when *most* Trads had a clear enemy and *mostly* were united in the True Faith.  Alas, those days are gone.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
    « Reply #241 on: May 06, 2022, 02:21:44 PM »
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  • Most merciful Father we humbly pray and beseech Thee, through Jesus Christ They Son, our Lord, that Thou wilt be pleased to receive and bless these gifts, these offerings, these holy unblemished sacrifices.

    We offer them to Thee in the first place for Thy Holy Catholic Church: vouchsafe, throughout the whole world, to keep her in peace, to watch over her in unity and to guide her, in union with N____, Thy servant our Pope, N___ our bishop and all right believing teachers of the Catholic apostolic faith.




    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
    « Reply #242 on: May 06, 2022, 02:26:43 PM »
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  • You know they'd sell the property in a minute and send the proceeds to one of their ill-conceived building projects (St. Mary's or the seminary).

    Early on, one of the Board members actually asked Fr. Wegner straight to his face:

    "Father, if we signed the property over to you this week, what would stop you from selling it next week?"

    There was no response from Fr. Wegner.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
    « Reply #243 on: May 06, 2022, 02:37:49 PM »
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  • The point of saying the pope's name is because catholic unity resides in the pope...who has a name.  The whole idea that one is agreeing with JPII/Benedict/Francis when naming them is stupid and illogical.
    The "una cuм" issue is only a sin if you KNOW that the person you mention is an anti-pope.  For example, if you were living in the days of Pope St Pius X and you went to a priest for mass who openly stated he was praying in union with some random "pope michael".  This would be schism.


    No priest who mentions JPII/Benedict/Francis is schismatic because the matter is not settled and no one can definitively say that these men aren't popes (even in the temporal/govt sense only).  NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE.  This is why St Vincent Ferrer wasn't wrong or any other saint who lived through a papal crisis in history (of which there have been many).  They aren't wrong because IT'S UNCLEAR. 

    If things are unclear and the intent is to pray for the Holy Father then there is no schism.  The intent of schism must be present for there to be sin.  No Trad has/can prove sedevacantism 100% so the "una cuм" controversy is an uncharitable, divisive, colossal nothing burger.


    Pax, In all honestly, we have plenty of information to know we have an anti-Pope.

    We know Benedict XVI still claims remnant Papal authority, and that's technically all that's needed to meet the anti-pope definition.

    The status of the whole modernist regime is unclear and undecided because the ʝʊdɛօ-masons have corrupted and bought-off the Holy See.
    It was the same at the time of the Jєω-Pope Anacletus II.  He had bribed most of the Holy See.  No canonical moves could be made against him.

    But anti-pope Anacletus II was running a schism.  And St. Bernard Claivaux rallied against it.


    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
    « Reply #244 on: May 06, 2022, 03:04:29 PM »
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  • It depends how you define “anti pope”.  Sure the V2 pope are heretics.  But on the other hand, they are still the VISIBLE and PERSONAL representatives of the Church.  If you asked any non-catholic who the pope is, they would say “Francis”.  That’s the point - Francis is who people associate with the Church.  He’s the leader, even if a heretic, (or possibly) a fraud.  He’s still in charge of the govt of the Vatican.  

    That’s the whole purpose of the Te Igitur - to pray in Union with the papacy.  Whoever represents the papacy.  Heretic or not, that’s Francis. 


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
    « Reply #245 on: May 06, 2022, 03:13:45 PM »
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  • Let me ask:  

    What if the celebrant substituted, “the true Pope” and “the true Bishop” instead. of uttering the names of the schism pope and his bishop?

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
    « Reply #246 on: May 06, 2022, 03:19:59 PM »
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  • Let me ask: 

    What if the celebrant substituted, “the true Pope” and “the true Bishop” instead. of uttering the names of the schism pope and his bishop?
    If the celebrant doesn't believe Francis is the Pope, then he omits that portion of the te igitur. Which is exactly what sede priests do.
    "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:" [2 Tim. 4:3]

    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    Offline Giacomo

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    Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
    « Reply #247 on: May 06, 2022, 03:58:39 PM »
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  • I too must say that Ladislaus’ reprinting of Laszlo Szijarto’s “Open Letter to Trad Clergy” was right on the mark.  And it is no accident that this excerpt appears on this CathInfo thread: the abuses pointed out by Szijarto apply, almost in every case, to Daniel Dolan -- and to others as well.  (Excepting Dolan’s most ardent admirers, I’m sure his name was forefront in the minds of many of those who read Szijarto’s words.)   And, sadly, what Szijarto pointed out – passing off private opinions as “dogma” (and refusing the sacraments who “violate” them – or even “excommunicating” them – has only served to DESTROY the traditional movement.
     
    And that is why eulogizing Daniel Dolan as a great “pastor,” as one of his clergy (Stephen McKenna) did at his funeral, will only perpetuate the misconception that Dolan was a benevolent shepherd to his flock.  In his eulogy, McKenna talked about Dolan’s “charity,’ and of his special devotion to St. Therese of Lisieux.  Well, this is really ironic, because it was another “Therese” – Terri Schiavo – for whom Dolan had ABSOLUTELY NO CHARITY.  And where was Dolan’s “charity” for the children who were brutalized at SGG’s school back in 2008-2009?  (Denying parents’ demands for corrective action, Dolan dismissed their complaints – yet condoned the principal’s sons watching porn on the school computer as “boys will be boys.”)  And when one of those sons impregnated an SGG student, he condoned that too.  (The girl, of course, was condemned, but the boy suffered no remedial action.)
     
    There are, of course, many other examples of Dolan’s “charity” – but time does not permit.  Let me also point out that while all of McKenna’s examples of his late pastor’s “charity” are unverifiable, all of the examples I have given are DOcuмENTED – most coming from Dolan’s (and Cekada’s) own lips.
     
    It is really unfortunate for McKenna that he waxed so poetically about Dolan in his eulogy -- doing his “Academy Award” best to emulate the latter’s affected rhetoric and dramatic pauses (not to mention, his futile attempts at erudition: he mispronounced every French expression he tried to use), because – if he thought this was an audition for his taking over as SGG’s next “bishop” – he was sadly mistaken:  Charles McGuire got the nod!  Yes, McGuire was (apparently) Dolan’s choice to “play bishop” at SGG. (Interesting…  McKenna was always considered the front-runner.)
     
    This must be a big blow to McKenna’s ego, because -- although McKenna’s “formation” was pretty poor -- McGuire’s is even worse.  (He was trained at MHT, which is about as prestigious as a “run of the mill” boys’ industrial school.)  McGuire has an inferior education (both secular and clerical), and he has no “social skills.”  And he certainly hasn’t Dolan’s charisma (albeit overly saccharine and artificial).  Dolan was the glue that held SGG together.  The eminently under-qualified McGuire has none of that.
     
    Daniel Dolan is dead.  It is, of course, right and proper to pray for his soul (as it is to pray for ANYONE’S soul).  But it is NOT right and proper to “whitewash” him, as McKenna did in his eulogy, with his fanciful, fictional account of Dolan’s “charity” -- and his endorsement of Dolan’s FAILED POLICY – one that has torn SGG asunder, and driven half of its congregation away.  McGuire had better not follow Dolan’s failed policy – one that has jeopardized not only SGG, but Traddieland itself (and one that will only hasten Traddieland’s downward death spiral in which it already finds itself). 



    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
    « Reply #248 on: May 06, 2022, 04:17:17 PM »
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  • Bishop Dolan’s death topic is fascinating.
    :popcorn:
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
    « Reply #249 on: May 06, 2022, 04:18:04 PM »
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  • Early on, one of the Board members actually asked Fr. Wegner straight to his face:

    "Father, if we signed the property over to you this week, what would stop you from selling it next week?"

    There was no response from Fr. Wegner.


    I recommended to Father Carley to put a "no sale" clause into the chapel property handover contract.  So he tried that, and (as I knew they would), rejected it.  They refused to accept that condition.  I asked Father to do that knowing SSPX would reject it to hopefully persuade Father that they're likely just to sell the property.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
    « Reply #250 on: May 06, 2022, 08:13:16 PM »
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  • Quote
    What if the celebrant substituted, “the true Pope” and “the true Bishop” instead. 
    Quote
    of uttering the names of the schism pope and his bishop?
    Strictly speaking, a priest shouldn’t make any changes to the rubrics unless the bishop authorized him to.  It’s a temptation from the devil (in my opinion) to “do your own thing”.  It’s totally against the whole purpose of rubrics and church authority.  


    And, it’s also making a mountain out of a molehill because it’s a temptation to re-interpret the prayer to mean more than it actually does.  That’s how I see it. 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
    « Reply #251 on: May 06, 2022, 09:18:57 PM »
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  • If I were a priest, I would say the una cuм famulo tuo papa nostro but leave out the name of Bergoglio.  That signifies the formal intent to submit to the papacy while not polluting the Sacred Canon with the name of the heresiarch (if not apostate) Bergoglio.  Pope is listed among the "guardians/custodians" of the faith.  I couldn't put Bergoglio's name in that list with a straight face.  I'd feel as if I were injecting a lie into the most sacred action of the Church.

    Offline Jr1991

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    Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
    « Reply #252 on: May 06, 2022, 10:34:09 PM »
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  • The list is extensive.

    Greenwood, Indiana


    With lawyers and a few pro SSPX members at his side,
    Fr. Rostand, tells the Chapel's independent Board to give the SSPX the chapel
    or they will open one down the street and put them out of business.

    Sad. That looks like a beautiful little chapel

    Offline Jr1991

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    Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
    « Reply #253 on: May 06, 2022, 10:41:06 PM »
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  • This is what the SSPX does though right?  I listened a Bp Dolan interview from several years ago and he said SSPX would just toss priests to the wind if they didn't toe the party line or had any issues.

    I had an independent priest tell me that, yes, that is what the SSPX does. I was surprised by this one, given that the chapel they sold(St. Philomena) was in the middle of a fundraiser to build a new chapel on the same site they sold. So imagine how the people who donated money felt when they were duped into giving money for a chapel that now will reside(maybe neve or years from now) in another county.


    Offline Jr1991

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    Re: Bp Daniel Dolan has died
    « Reply #254 on: May 06, 2022, 10:42:27 PM »
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  • I recommended to Father Carley to put a "no sale" clause into the chapel property handover contract.  So he tried that, and (as I knew they would), rejected it.  They refused to accept that condition.  I asked Father to do that knowing SSPX would reject it to hopefully persuade Father that they're likely just to sell the property.

    That tells you everything you need to know.