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Offline Markus

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Book review by Dr Horvat: Poem of the Man-God
« on: March 13, 2019, 12:40:04 AM »
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  • Valtorta’s Poem of the Man-God
     
     Marian T. Horvat, Ph.D.
    Book review of Poem of the Man-God by Maria Valtorta, 10 volumes, online edition
    A friend recently sent me an e-mail asking about Maria Valtorta and her Poem of the Man-God. She received a recent issue of Kyrie Eleison comments of Bishop Richard Williamson titled “Home Reading” (October 20, 2012). In it, he recommends parents read selected chapters of the Poem of the Man-God to children every night.
     
     He admits the Poem is controversial and has many enemies, but he defends Valtorta’s massive tome (4,000 pages in 10 volumes of supposed visions she received of the life of Christ). The Bishop supports it, despite the objections he lists: that it is riddled with doctrinal errors, that it humanizes Our Lord Jesus Christ, and that the work was placed on the Church’s Index of Forbidden Books in the 1950s.
     
     He lightly dismisses all the arguments against it and concludes children will learn much about Our Lord and Our Lady from the Poem, which “will fortify a home.”
     
     “I have not read this book,” my friend continues, “but, for Heaven’s sake, why didn’t Bishop W. recommend reading the wonderful, approved, written-by-a-canonized saint 4-volume City of God by Mother Mary of Agreda? But that is beside the point. I really do wish to know if you approve of the Poem of the Man-God. Even the title upsets my Catholic sensibilities.”
     
     
    A humanized Christ
     
     I believe my friend should follow her good Catholic sense. The very title, the Man-God , expresses the spirit of the work. It is Jesus as a man that Valtorta presents: a babe suckling greedily at his Mother’s breasts, a youth hardly aware of Who He is, a Man who laughs and jokes with His Apostles and is constantly kissing them on the mouth and embracing them closely. Yes, at the least, it is difficult not to suspect this showy Jesus pictured in such way as having homosexual tendencies.
     
     Valtorta’s natural approach is supposed to attract the modern man to the Life of Christ. It is in tune with the progressivist doctrine that tries to deny the supernatural and instead presents Our Lady as a simple Jewish woman and focuses on Our Lord as being a man “like us.” As Atila Guimaraes points out in Animus Injuriandi I, the progressivist Church aims to de-mythify and de-supernaturalize Christ and His Mother under the guise of presenting a natural “historical” Christ and Mary.” I believe Valtorta’s Jesus and Mary fit this mold.


    Valtorta’s Man-God depiction is the opposite of the God-Man portrayed by Anne Catherine Emmerich and Ven. Mary of Agreda, whose life of Christ is presented from an elevated, supernatural vantage point. One cannot help but wonder why the traditionalist Bishop would not recommend these works, instead of the Valtorta tomes, which were officially condemned by the Holy Office and placed on the Index in December 1959 and defined by L’Osservatore Romano of January 6,1960 as “a badly fictionalized life of Jesus.”
     
     After Vatican II, Paul VI abolished the Index of Forbidden Books, and Valtorta’s supporters claim this nullifies the suppression of 1959. Unfortunately, the official position of the Church today is less than clear, with important Prelates and Catholic figures on both sides of the issue. Obviously, the progressivists, almost to the man, defend it.
     
     The Poem of the Man-God, I believe, is riddled with banalities, vulgarities, blasphemies and even doctrinal errors. There are endless idle conversations between Our Lord, Our Lady and the Apostles, all on a natural level. I think the best way to confirm these points is simply to cite some texts, which are so revolting that they speak for themselves.
     
     The quotes that follow are taken from an online edition of The Poem of the Man-God. A 48-page critique written in the 1980s – when the Poem’s popularity surged for a period, as it seems to be resurging now – by a Salesian, Brother James, S.D.B., can be read in its entirety here (Vol. 1, Vol. 2, Vol. 3, Vol. 4, Vol. 5) .
     
     
    An Infant conceived with original sin
     
     Valtorta portrays the Christ Child as a greedy infant of a sentimental Mother. It is difficult to find the respect we owe to Our Lord Jesus Christ in this imaginary immodest description of a nursing scene:

    “Jesus opens His eyes, sees His Mother and smiles and stretches His little hands toward Her breast.
     
     “[Mary] ‘Yes, love of Your Mummy. Yes. Your milk. Before the usual time. But You are always ready to suck Your Mummy's breast, My little holy Lamb!’
     
     “Jesus laughs and plays, kicking His feet out of the blankets, moving His arms happily in a typical childish style, so beautiful to see. He pushes His feet against His Mummy's stomach. He arches His back leaning His fair head on Her breast, and then throws Himself back and laughs, holding with His hands the laces that tie Mary's dress to Her neck, endeavoring to open it. …
     
     “Mary nurses Him and Jesus avidly sucks His Mother's good milk, and when He feels that only a little is coming from Her right breast, He looks for the left one, laughing while doing so and looking up at His Mother. Then He falls asleep again on Her breast, His rosy round little cheek resting against Her white round breast.” (Vol 1, n. 35, p. 106).
     
     
    An Adult with homosexual tendencies
     
     Valtorta’s Jesus suspiciously displays homosexual tendencies since he is constantly kissing and embracing the Apostles. When Jesus tells James of His approaching Passion, James reacts with great emotion. Jesus comforts him thus:
     
     “’Come, I will kiss you thus, to help you forget the burden of My fate as Man. Here, I kiss your lips that will have to repeat My words to the people of Israel and your heart that will have to love as I told you, and there, on your temple, where life will cease.’ … They remain embraced for a long time and James seems to doze off in the joy of God's kisses that make him forget his suffering.”

    When Valtorta describes the “favorite” Apostle John as having the face of a young girl with the “gaze of a lover,” we can hardly avoid having the impression that they have a homosexual relationship. Here Jesus is kissing John to awaken him:
     
     “Jesus bends and kisses the cheek of John, who opens his eyes and is dumbfounded at seeing Jesus. He sits up and says, ‘Do you need me? Here I am.’ …
     
     “John, half naked in his under-tunic, because he used his tunic and mantle as bed covers, clasps Jesus’ neck and lays his head between Jesus’ shoulder and cheek.”
     
     After John professes his belief and love in Jesus as Son of God, “he smiles and weeps, panting, inflamed by his love, relaxing on Jesus’ chest, as if he were exhausted by his ardor. And Jesus caresses him, burning with love Himself.”
     
     John begs Jesus not to tell the others of what has passed between them. Jesus replies, “Do not worry, John. No one will be aware of your wedding with the Love. Get dressed, come. We must leave.” (Vol. 2, n. 165, pp. 57-58 )
     
     
    Jesus suggests a love-affair between St. Peter and Our Lady
     
     Jesus even jokes with impropriety with his apostles. Here, Jesus stands up and calls out loudly and angrily to Peter:
     
     “‘Come here, you usurper and corrupter!’
     “‘Me? Why? What have I done, Lord?’
     “‘You have corrupted My Mother. That is why you wanted to be alone. What shall I do with you?’
     “Jesus smiles and Peter recovers his confidence. ‘You really frightened me! Now You are laughing.” (Vol. II, n. 199, p. 185)
     
     
    Like Luther, Mary thinks: Let us sin to be forgiven
     
     Some passages are tantamount to heresy. For example, Valtorta presents the child Mary as expressing her desire to be a big sinner in order to merit the grace of Redemption:
     
     “[Mary]: ‘Tell Me, mummy, can one be a sinner out of love of God?
     “[Anne]: ‘What are you saying, my dear? I don't understand you.’
     “[Mary]:’I mean: to commit a sin in order to be loved by God, Who becomes the Savior. Who is lost, is saved. Isn’t that so? I would like to be saved by the Savior to receive His loving look." (Vol. 1, n. 7, p. 23).
     
     
    A sensual Eve tending toward bestiality
     
     The work is also not without doctrinal errors, such as when Valtorta asserts the sin of Eve was not disobedience, but a sexual act. There is also an insinuation of a tendency toward bestiality in Eve. This erotic description was supposedly made by Jesus:
     
     “With his venomous tongue Satan blandished and caressed Eve’s limbs and eyes… Her flesh was aroused … The sensation is a sweet one for her. And ‘she understood.’ Now Malice was inside her and was gnawing at her intestines. She saw with new eyes and heard with new ears the habits and voices of beasts. And she craved for them with insane greed. “She began the sin by herself. She accomplished it with her companion.” (Vol. 1, n. 17, p. 49)
     
     These are some excerpts I offer to my readers to evaluate Valtorta’s work. I believe they are sufficient for the reader to make a judgment of the whole.
     
     It is thus understandable that the Holy Office placed the work on the Index of Forbidden Books, which is reproduced below. It is also understandable that the Salesian Brother James concluded his critique of the first two volumes with these words: “Poem of the Man-Godis so demonic that without a special grace from Our Lord Jesus, we could be deceived by the seemingly harmless statements by Valtorta’s Jesus, but they enclose lies and heresy, contrary to the teachings of One, Holy Catholic Church.”


     
     *
    Supreme Congregation of
     the Holy Office

     
     Decree
     Proscription of Books
     Wednesday, December 16, 1959

     The Most Eminent and Reverend Cardinals of the Supreme Congregation of the Holy Office, to whom the safeguarding of things of the Faith and Moral is confided, after receiving the previous opinions of the Consultors, have unanimously condemned and ordered that the books by an anonymous author, in four volumes, be inscribed in the Index of Forbidden Books, the first of those books being:
     
     Il Poema di Gesù [The Poem of Jesus] (Tipografia Editrice M. Pisani);
     
     followed by,
     
     Il Poema dell'Uomo-Dio [The Poem of the Man-God], (Ibidem).
     
     On Friday of that same month and year, the Most Holy and Dignified Lord John XXIII, Pope by the grace of Divine Providence, in an audience given to the Most Eminent and Reverend Cardinal Secretary of the Holy Office, after hearing the report of the Most Reverend Fathers, approved this resolution and commanded that it be published.
     
     Given in Rome, in the seat of the
     Holy Office on January 5, 1960.
     Sebastian Masala, Notary
    Posted October 29, 2012
     

    Offline XavierSem

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    Re: Book review by Dr Horvat: Poem of the Man-God
    « Reply #1 on: March 13, 2019, 03:31:21 AM »
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  • Horvat's polemical article is ridiculous and misleading and has been refuted before. In 1961, the Holy Office approved the second edition of the Poem for publication: “Continue to publish this second edition. We will see how the world receives it.”

    St. Padre Pio said to a spiritual daughter of his, "“Father, I have heard mention of Maria Valtorta’s books. Do you advise me to read them?” Padre Pio replied, “I don’t advise you to—I order you to!” http://www.bardstown.com/~brchrys/Padre-Pio-Valtorta.html

    He thus vouched for the fact that she was an authentic mystic, as she had once done during the time St. Pio himself was misunderstood by Church authorities, when Maria Valtorta said the Franciscan Friar was really holy instead. St. Pio has never given such an endorsement of any other book outside the Holy Bible.

    Bp. Williamson is not unaware of these objections and has sufficiently answered most of them. Many of them are just hopelessly and ridiculously taken out of context, as anyone who has actually read more than 10 pages of the book will know. The passage on St. Peter for e.g. is totally misrepresented by Horvat; St. Peter wanted to adopt a child, at first Our Lord said no. Later, Mother Mary interceded for him, and then it was granted. As for the other things, Horvat is misunderstanding a spiritual truth. The Gospel calls St. John the Apostle whom Jesus loved, and when the Poem says St. John's heart was inflamed by the love of Jesus it means no more than that.

    The Mystical City of God by Ven. Mary of Agreda is another excellent book. That book also had its critics before being fully approved. It's amazing that the critics of works that stretch into thousands and thousands of pages can come up only with 3 or 4 recycled objections.

    Fr. Gabriel Roschini was one of the leading Mariologists of the last century:

    "Fr. Roschini had also personally met Valtorta, but admitted that, like many others, he was a respectful and condescending skeptic. But after carefully studying her writings for himself, he underwent a radical and enthusiastic change of heart, later declaring Valtorta to be “one of the eighteen greatest mystics of all time.” 27 In his last book of 395 pages, which he said was his most important book, The Virgin Mary in the Writings of Maria Valtorta, he declared that the Mariology found in Maria Valtorta’s writings exceeds the sum total of everything he has read, studied, and published himself (and he has published over 790 articles and miscellaneous writings, and 130 books, 66 of which were over 200 pages long – almost all of which are on Mariology). As material for a course which he taught at the Marianum Pontifical Theological Faculty in Rome on the Marian intuitions of the great mystics, Fr. Gabriel Roschini used both Maria Valtorta’s The Poem of the Man-God as well as her other mystical writings as a basis for his course. 28 Fr. Roschini is also one of the authorities whose favorable certifications about Maria Valtorta was given to the Holy Office in 1961 by Fr. Corrado Berti, which led the Holy Office to grant their approval of the publication of the second edition of her work.29"

    http://www.bardstown.com/~brchrys/Summa.pdf

    DRBO has an article from Fr. Kevin Robinson, SSPX: "Fr. Roschini O.S.M. exposes the falsity of this charge in his book The Virgin Mary in the Writings of Maria Valtorta (Kolbe., Sherbrooke, Canada, 1986, pp. 276-279) ... He goes on to quote 10 saints and numerous other theologians in support of Valtorta! This is context.

    With Valtorta, as with the canonical Scriptures, there are difficulties that are easily resolved by distinction from Thomistic philosophy ... These distinctions are usually not needed for the simple faithful as the context gives them the truth without danger. http://www.drbo.org/valtorta.htm Even Pope Pius XII had said, “Publish it just as it is. There is no need to give an opinion as to whether it is of supernatural origin. Those who read it will understand.” which is sufficient grounds for publication.

    That Maria Valtorta did not make them up is also evident because she remained bedridden throughout her life, but archaeologists have confirmed the knowledge of Jerusalem imparted during her revelations is incredible precise. From the article: "Given that she never left Italy and was bedridden much of her life, Maria's writings reflect a surprising knowledge of the Holy Land. A geologist, Vittorio Tredici, stated that her detailed knowledge of the topographic, geological, and mineralogical aspects of Palestine is unexplainable. And a biblical archeologist, Father Dreyfus, noted that her work includes the names of several small towns which are absent from the Old and New Testaments and are only known to a few experts." Many do not know "Iscariot" means "of Kerioth" as one example. She gets it right.

    Let me cite 3 passages from the Poem, which shows plainly (1) the Divinity of Christ (against the claims of a "Humanized Christ), (2) the very high praise of His Mother from the Saviour Himself, and (3) the full context of that passage where the Blessed Virgin speaks to Her parents, which Horvat misrepresents; there St. Joachim and St. Anne discuss with their long awaited Child, the Blessed Mother, Who is going to live out Her vocation in the Temple, how God has saved Her in advance (the Blessed Mother could have remained humble in simplicity, asking Her parents the questions children are normally used to ask, and God spoke through Her parents lips to guide Her).

    1. (After the Resurrection of Lazarus) "is what you have seen enough for you? One day you told Me that in order to believe, you and your peers needed to see a decomposed dead body be recomposed and in good health. Are you satisfied with the rottenness you have seen? Can you admit that Lazarus was dead and that now he is alive and healthy, as he has never been for many years? I know. You came here to tempt these people, to increase their grief and their doubt. You came here looking for Me, hoping to find Me hiding in the room of the dying man. You did not come with feelings of love and with the desire to honour the deceased man, but to ensure that Lazarus was really dead, and you have continued to come rejoicing all the more as time went by. If the situation had evolved as you were hoping, as you believed it would evolve, you would have been right in exulting. The Friend Who cures everybody, but does not cure His friend. The Master Who rewards everybody's faith, but not the faith of His friends in Bethany. The Messiah powerless against the reality of death. That is what was making you exult. Then God gave you His reply. No prophet had ever been able to put together what was decomposed, in addition to being dead. God did it. That is the living witness of what I am. One day it was God Who took some dust and made it into a form and He breathed the vital spirit into it and man was. I was there to say: “Let man be made in our own image and likeness”. Because I am the Word of the Father. Today, I, the Word, said to what is even less than dust, I said to rottenness: “Live”, and decomposition was recomposed into flesh, into wholesome, living, breathing flesh. There it is looking at you. And to the flesh I joined the spirit that had been lying for days in Abraham's bosom. I called him with My will, because I can do everything, as I am the Living Being, the King of kings to Whom all creatures and things are subject. What are you going to reply to Me now?» He is in front of them, tall, ablaze with majesty, really Judge and God. They do not reply. He insists: «Is it not yet enough for you to believe, to accept what is ineluctable?» «You have kept but one part of Your promise. This is not the sign of Jonah...» says Sadoc harshly. «You shall have that one as well. I promised it and I will keep My promise» says the Lord. And another person, who is present here, and is waiting for another sign, shall have it. And as he is a just man, he will accept it. You will not. You will remain what you are.»

    2. (right at the beginning of the book), "1. Introduction. 22nd August 1944. Jesus orders me: « Take a completely new notebook. Write down on the first page what I dictated on August the 16th. She will be spoken of in this book. » I obey and I write. -----------------
    16th August 1944. Jesus says: « Today write only this. Purity has such a value, that the womb of a creature can contain the Uncontainable One, because She possessed the greatest purity that a creature of God could have. The Most Holy Trinity descended with Its perfections, inhabited with Its Three Persons, enclosed Its infinity in a small space. But It did not debase Itself by doing so, because the love of the Virgin and the will of God widened this space until they rendered it a Heaven. And the Most Holy Trinity made Itself known by Its characteristics: The Father, being once again the Creator of the creature, as on the sixth day of Creation, had a real, worthy daughter fashioned to His perfect image. The mark of God was impressed so completely and exactly on Mary, that only in the Firstborn was it greater. Mary can be called the Second-born of the Father because, owing to the perfection granted to Her and preserved by Her, and to Her dignity of Spouse and Mother of God and Queen of Heaven, She comes second after the Son of the Father and second in His eternal thought, which ab aeterno took delight in Her. The Son, being also “Her Son”, did teach Her, by the mystery of Grace, His truth and wisdom, when He was but an Embryo, growing in Her womb. The Holy Spirit appeared amongst men, for an anticipated prolonged Pentecost: Love for “Her Whom He loved”, Consolation to men because of the Fruit of Her Womb, Sanctification on account of the Maternity of the Holy One. God, to reveal Himself to men in the new and complete form, which starts the Redemption era, did not select for His throne a star in the sky, nor the palace of a powerful man. Neither did He want the wings of angels as the base of His feet. He wanted a spotless womb. Also Eve had been created spotless. But she wanted to become corrupt of her own free will. Mary, Who lived in a corrupt world – Eve was in a pure world – did not wish to violate Her purity, not even with one thought remotely connected with sin. She knew that sin exists. She saw its various and horrible forms and implications. She saw them all, including the most hideous one: Deicide. But She knew them solely to expiate them and to be, forever, the Woman who has mercy on sinners and prays for their redemption. This thought will be the introduction to other holy things that I will give for your benefit and the welfare of many people. »"

    3. (the incident misrepresented by Horvat and already answered by Fr. Robinson in its full context), "« Oh! You can see then that I must be a virgin? I must. If He wants a virgin as His Mother, it means that He loves virginity above all things. I want Him to love Me, His maiden, because of the virginity which will make Me somewhat like His beloved Mother... This is what I want... I would also like to be a sinner, a big sinner, if I were not afraid of offending the Lord... Tell Me, mummy, can one be a sinner out of love of God ? » « But what are You saying, my dear? I don't understand You. » « I mean: to commit a sin in order to be loved by God, Who becomes the Saviour. Who is lost, is saved. Isn't that so? I would like to be saved by the Saviour to receive His loving look. That is why 1 would like to sin, but not to commit a sin that would disgust Him. How can He save Me if I do not get lost?» Anne is dumbfounded. She does not know what to say. Joachim helps her. He has approached them walking noiselessly on the grass, behind the low hedge of vine-shoots. « He has saved You beforehand, because He knows that You love Him and You want to love Him only. So You are already redeemed and You can be a virgin as You wish » says Joachim. « Is that true, daddy? » Mary embraces his knees and looks at him with Her clear blue eyes, so like Her father's and so happy because of this hope She gets from Her father. « It is true, my little darling. Look! I was just bringing You this little sparrow, that at its first flight landed near the spring. I could have left it there but its weak wings did not have enough strength to fly off again, and its tiny legs could not hold it on to the slippery moss stones. It would have fallen into the water. But I did not wait for that. I took it and now I am giving it to You. You will do what you like with it. The fact is that it was saved before it fell into the danger. God has done the same with You. Now, tell me, Mary: have I loved the sparrow more by saving it beforehand, or would I have loved it more saving it afterwards? » « You have loved it now, because you did not let it get hurt in the cold water. » « And God has loved You more, because He has loved You before You sinned. » « And I will love Him wholeheartedly. Wholeheartedly. My beautiful little sparrow, I am like you. The Lord has loved us both equally, by saving us... I will now rear you and then I will let you go. And you in the forest and I in the Temple will sing the praises of God, and we shall say: “Please send the One You promised to those who expect Him.” Oh! Daddy, when are you taking Me to the Temple?»" Don't despise a wonderful work praised by St. Pio and Bp. Williamson which the Saviour has revealed to increase the love for His Gospel among us.
    "And as to yourself, tell them that because you are imperfect, weak and infirm, you stand in need of Communion." (Introduction to the Devout Life, St. Francis)


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Book review by Dr Horvat: Poem of the Man-God
    « Reply #2 on: March 13, 2019, 07:43:11 AM »
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  • Horvat's polemical article is ridiculous and misleading and has been refuted before. 

    No, you're ridiculous.  Valtorta is right up your alley given your effeminate emotionalism.

    Here's a good balanced treatment of Valtorta by the Novus Ordo's Father Mitch Pacwa --
    http://www.ewtn.com/library/scriptur/valtorta.txt

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Book review by Dr Horvat: Poem of the Man-God
    « Reply #3 on: March 13, 2019, 07:45:33 AM »
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  • Horvat's polemical article is ridiculous and misleading and has been refuted before. In 1961, the Holy Office approved the second edition of the Poem for publication: “Continue to publish this second edition. We will see how the world receives it.”

    St. Padre Pio said to a spiritual daughter of his,

    False.  Valtorta remained on the Index until its abolition, and a December 1, 1961 article in L'Osservatore Romano reiterated the Church's condemnation after that new edition had come out (see Father Pacwa's article).

    And yet another spurious Padre Pio quotation from the internet, 99% of which are fabricated out of thin air.

    Last Position of the Church before the abolition of the Index:  condemned.  Any other article or argument you can make is therefore entirely irrelevant.  This is all we need to know about Valtorta ... condemned by the Church.

    Offline cebu

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    Re: Book review by Dr Horvat: Poem of the Man-God
    « Reply #4 on: March 13, 2019, 09:12:27 AM »
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  • OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, they are having to drag out Marian Horvat to justify their argument against Maria Valtorta. Using her puts you on the back foot already. She is equally concerned about whether you use a cup and saucer in this great age of apostasy.

    Perhaps you missed this link   Truth on MV.   How many times have you been referred to this link and never used it or read the contents but instead indulge in personal attacks, hardly in the spirit of the Lenten season ?  That must demonstrate that you are just not interested in the truth. May the Holy Ghost enlighten you in this penitential time.



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Book review by Dr Horvat: Poem of the Man-God
    « Reply #5 on: March 13, 2019, 10:25:50 AM »
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  • OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, they are having to drag out Marian Horvat to justify their argument against Maria Valtorta.

    We don't need to justify anything.  Church put her on the Index.  End of argument.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Book review by Dr Horvat: Poem of the Man-God
    « Reply #6 on: March 13, 2019, 10:27:34 AM »
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  • Perhaps you missed this link  

    No, just don't care.  Let em see:  Stephen Austin vs. the Holy Office.  Hmmm.  I have to ponder that one a long time.

    Offline jvk

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    Re: Book review by Dr Horvat: Poem of the Man-God
    « Reply #7 on: March 13, 2019, 10:54:35 AM »
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  • I have to admit...even the sections that are quoted above, even if not vulgar, are so sappy and syrupy it about makes me sick.   


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Book review by Dr Horvat: Poem of the Man-God
    « Reply #8 on: March 13, 2019, 11:05:20 AM »
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  • The fact that there's such a cult following for this book and people defend it so passionately makes me think something's off.  As a Catholic, you're supposed to strive after indifference to most everything of the world, and even spiritual things.  How many stories were there of saints who, in the middle of having visions/apparations with Our Lady and Our Lord, were called by their superiors to a task, and they had to leave Our Lady/Our Lord and go be obedient?  Many stories of this nature.  And Our Lady/Our Lord told the saints that their obedience was more important than the apparation. 

    Moral of the story:  You should strive to be disinterested and to be unattached to things in this life, even if they are (or appear to be) holy things.  This especially goes for "the peom" because the Church hasn't been 100% orthodox for 100 years (since St Pius X) so there's lot of garbage out there that a normal, orthodox, catholic heirarchy would've restricted.  If you are so attached to "the poem" that you can't allow it to be criticized or analyzed for errors (which is the Church's normal process in private apparations), then your promotion/support of this book is disordered and anti-catholic.

    Online ihsv

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    Re: Book review by Dr Horvat: Poem of the Man-God
    « Reply #9 on: March 13, 2019, 11:18:52 AM »
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  • My father started reading Poem of the Man God to the family many years ago.  I don't think we got more than a quarter of the way through the first book before he decided to stop.  I have, since then, read more of it, and it's clear that it is naturalistic at best.  Not at all as edifying as Blessed Mary of Agreda's City of God, or even Anne Catherine Emmerich's Life of Christ.  Those works portrayed Christ as God, as Divine.  They portrayed Our Lady as noble, perfect, and completely free of concupiscence and the other effects of Original Sin.

    Christ's love toward the Apostles was shown to be a Divine Love, not a sentimental, sappy (as jvk so perfectly describes it), emotional "love".

    We came to this conclusion before the internet, before realizing that it had ever been put on the Index.  The fact that it had been put on the index in the first place should give people pause.  It is, on that account alone, suspect.

    Whether it had ever been removed or not, I don't know.  I'll leave that to the rest of you to argue.  I'm satisfied enough to have made my own decision on the matter.
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline apollo

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    Re: Book review by Dr Horvat: Poem of the Man-God
    « Reply #10 on: March 13, 2019, 10:29:26 PM »
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  • We don't need to justify anything.  Church put her on the Index.  End of argument.
    .
    Church created the Novus Ordo Mass also.  End of listening to the Counciliar Church.
    You critics just don't want Jesus Christ to be human. 
    .
    You can read the vision Valtorta had of Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead here:
    http://drbo.org/lazarus.htm
    .
    Mitch Pacwa is mentally ill.  He took things out of context.  EWTN has become modern.

    Apollo was an Egyptian hermit, founder, and miracle worker, born about 310 AD.


    Offline apollo

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    Re: Book review by Dr Horvat: Poem of the Man-God
    « Reply #11 on: March 13, 2019, 10:32:57 PM »
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  • No, just don't care.  Let em see:  Stephen Austin vs. the Holy Office.  Hmmm.  I have to ponder that one a long time.
    .
    Ladislaus vs Bishop Williamson ?   Hmmmm, I'm thinking ...
    Apollo was an Egyptian hermit, founder, and miracle worker, born about 310 AD.

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Book review by Dr Horvat: Poem of the Man-God
    « Reply #12 on: March 13, 2019, 11:54:23 PM »
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  • OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, they are having to drag out Marian Horvat to justify their argument against Maria Valtorta. Using her puts you on the back foot already. She is equally concerned about whether you use a cup and saucer in this great age of apostasy.

    Perhaps you missed this link   Truth on MV.   How many times have you been referred to this link and never used it or read the contents but instead indulge in personal attacks, hardly in the spirit of the Lenten season ?  That must demonstrate that you are just not interested in the truth. May the Holy Ghost enlighten you in this penitential time.
    Surely you jest! You suggest sitting down and reading 1369 pages of defense of MV. And who will cook the dinner? Get in the real world!

    Offline XavierSem

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    • Totus Tuus, MARIA. Nunc et usque in aeternum.
    Re: Book review by Dr Horvat: Poem of the Man-God
    « Reply #13 on: March 14, 2019, 12:59:19 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    No, you're ridiculous.  Valtorta is right up your alley given your effeminate emotionalism.

    Ad hominem is the last refuge of the man who knows he's losing the argument. But it's Lent, and I forgive you for your taunts. You mistake kindness for weakness, but I have no need of childish ad hominem simply because I know the Church, Bp. Williamson and St. Pio have approved the work. Only with the first edition was there an issue. The second edition was approved and authorized by the Church for publication. That's just a fact amply documented in the links and articles you're afraid to read. The Vatican sent letters to Fr. Gabriel Roschini congratulating him for his work, The Virgin Mary in the writings of Maria Valtorta, where Father praises her and says he has never heard anywhere in all his research such important and edifying teachings about the Mother of God as he read in Maria Valtorta. And he has read all five volumes several times, not taken one or two pages out of context like some others have done.

    "I have been studying, teaching, preaching, and writing Mariology for half a century already. To do this, I had to read innumerable works and articles of all kinds on Mary: a real Marian library. However, I must candidly admit that the Mariology found in all of Maria Valtorta's writings – both published or unpublished – has been for me a real discovery. No other Marian writings, not even the sum total of everything I have read and studied, were able to give me as clear, as lively, as complete, as luminous, or as fascinating an image, both simple and sublime, of Mary, God's Masterpiece. 

    It seems to me that the conventional image of the Blessed Virgin, portrayed by myself and my fellow Mariologists, is merely a paper mache Madonna compared to the living and vibrant Virgin Mary envisioned by Maria Valtorta, a Virgin Mary perfect in every way ...whoever wants to know the Blessed Virgin (a Virgin in perfect harmony with the Holy Scriptures, the Tradition of the Church, and the Church Magisterium) should draw from Valtorta's Mariology." http://www.bardstown.com/~brchrys/Father-Gabriel-Roschini-Valtorta.html

    If you're going to engage in absurd anti-realism like denying St. Pio praised Maria Valtorta, you may as well fully deny reality and state that Bp. Williamson hasn't done so either. That's how absurd it is. This is the book mentioned in the link which anyone who wishes can read to know the truth: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/8879870718/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=8879870718&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 In times like this, St. Pio's endorsement should be decisive. St. Pio has never told another daughter of his, "I order you to" read any other book outside the Bible.

    That is beside Fr. Kevin Robinson of the SSPX, Fr. Bareille who was vocations director for so many years and said this book was useful for him throughout his life, and so many other good and holy Priests and others. Fr. Kevin writes at DRBO why those of the SSPX and those devoted to Pope St. Pius X especially should defend and read this book, as Jesus explicitly said it was given in praise of His Holy Vicar Pope St. Pius X [even before the Holy Father was beatified or canonized] and intended to fight modernism, denial of the supernaturalism, the miracles of Christ, the immutability of Truth, the divine nature of Tradition etc, "they continue to edify the Church resulting in many conversions and vocations.  Valtorta's writings were specially given by Christ Our Lord as a gift to His priests, to support the work of His Vicar St Pius X to combat Modernism (see The Poem. vol. 5, pp 946), and to reveal the truth of the Gospel in a special way.  They fill in the gaps.  They put you in the picture.  They amplify the sacred text, (e.g. the Passion may be five pages in your Gospel, it is 100 pages in The Poem.) ... It is a masterpiece of sacred literature, unlike anything ever written.  In some ways it is like being in the first seminary, trained by the Master Himself.  A professor and sculptor friend of Maria Valtorta wrote in 1965: "(her works) have completely transformed my inner life.  The knowledge of Christ has become so total as to make the Gospels clear to me and make me live them in everyday life better" (Lorenzo Ferri). All those among our parishioners who have read Valtorta say the same thing." There have been conversions and vocations because of the book. Let me cite the passage at the end where Jesus explains some of the reasons for it, 

    "The Reasons for the Work. Farewell to the Work. [28th April 1947.] Jesus says: “The reasons that have induced Me to enlighten and dictate episodes and words of Mine to Little John are, in addition to the joy of communicating an exact knowledge of Me to this loving victim-soul, manifold. But the moving spirit of all of them is My love for the Church, both teaching and militant, and My desire to help souls in their ascent towards perfection. The knowledge of Me helps to ascend. My Word is Life. I mention the main ones: 1. The reasons mentioned in dictation dated 18th January 1947 and which Little John will put here integrally. This is the most important reason because you are perishing and I want to save you. The most profound reason for the gift of this work is that in the present time, when modernism, (the denial of the supernatural) condemned by My holy Vicar Pius X, becomes corrupted in more and more harmful doctrines, the Church, represented by My Vicar, may have further material to fight against those who deny:  the supernaturalness of dogmas;  the divinity of the Christ; the truth of the Christ God and Man, real and perfect both in the faith and in the history that has been handed down on Him (Gospel, Acts of the Apostles, Apostolic Letters, tradition);  the doctrine of Paul and John and of the councils of Nicea, Ephesus and Chalcedon, as My true doctrine verbally taught by Me;  My unlimited science, as it is divine and perfect;  the divine origin of the dogmas of the Sacraments of the Church One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic;  the universality and continuity, until the end of time, of the Gospel given by Me for all men;  the perfect nature, from the beginning, of My doctrine that has not been formed as it is through successive transformations, but was given as it is: the Doctrine of the Christ, of the time of Grace, of the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God in you, divine, perfect, immutable. The Gospel for all those thirsting for God."

    Do you know Jesus condemns evolution in this book? Bp. Williamson has recommended it without hesitation both to Priests and Fathers.

    Just one sample passage on St. Joachim and St. Anne and their sacrifice in offering the Blessed Mother wholly to the Lord as they had promised, where Christ teaches us the value of suffering to sanctify and save our souls, and other holy teaching. This is a work of God.

    “Who loves her, loves life and will inherit Life” says Ecclesiasticus. This sentence is linked with Mine: “Who loses his life for My sake, will save it.” Because we are not referring to the poor life of this world, but to the eternal life, not to the joys of one hour, but to the immortal ones. Joachim and Anne loved Wisdom thus. And Wisdom was with them in their trials.

    How many trials they experienced, whilst you, men, do not want to have to suffer and cry, simply because you think that you are not completely wicked! How many trials these two just people suffered, and they deserved to have Mary as their daughter! Political persecutions had driven them out of the land of David, and made them excessively poor. They had felt sadness in seeing their years fading through without a flower that would say to them: “I shall be your continuation.” And afterwards, the anxiety of having a daughter in their old age when they were certain they would never see Her grow into a woman. And then the obligation of tearing Her from their hearts to offer Her on the altar of God. And again: their life became an even more painful silence, now that they were accustomed to the chirping of their little dove, to the noise of Her little steps, to the smiles and kisses of their creature, having to wait for the hour of God, their only company being the memories of the past. And much more... Diseases, calamities of inclement weather, the arrogance of mighty ones of the earth... so many blows of battering rams on the weak castle of their modest possessions. And it is not enough: the pain for their far away creature, who was going to be left lonely and poor and, notwithstanding their cares and sacrifices, would get only the remains of Her father's property. And how will She find such remains, since they will be left uncultivated for many years, awaiting Her return? Fears, trials, temptations. And yet, loyalty to God forever! What light is left to Joachim, an invalid, and to his sorrowful wife, in the long and silent nights of two old people who feel they are about to die? Only the little dresses, the first pair of little sandals, the simple toys of their little daughter, now far away, and memories of Her, memories... And peace when they say: “We are suffering, but we have done our duty of love towards God. And then they were overcome by a supernatural joy shining with a celestial light, a joy unknown to the children of the world, a joy that does not fade away when heavy eyelashes close on two dying eyes: on the contrary, it shines brighter in the last hour, illuminating the truth that had been hidden within them throughout their lives. Like a butterfly in its cocoon, the truth in them gave faint indications of its presence, just soft flashes, whereas now it opens its wings to the sun and shows its beautiful decorations. And their lives passed away in the certainty of a happy future for themselves and their descendants, their trembling lips murmuring words of praise to God. Such was the death of My grandparents. Such as their holy lives deserved. Because of their holiness, they deserved to be the first guardians of the Virgin Beloved by God, and only when a greater Sun showed itself at the end of their days, they realized the grace God had granted them." The books can be read on archive by those interested in being taught by Christ Himself, as Fr. Kevin Robinson so rightly says, being taught by the Master is in some ways like being with the Apostles itself.

    https://archive.org/details/Volume1OfThePoemOfTheManGod/page/n1
    "And as to yourself, tell them that because you are imperfect, weak and infirm, you stand in need of Communion." (Introduction to the Devout Life, St. Francis)

     

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