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Author Topic: BODers Forget about if Imaginery People can be Saved  (Read 2021 times)

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Offline bowler

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BODers Forget about if Imaginery People can be Saved
« on: February 04, 2014, 11:55:57 AM »
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  • Let's be accurate at least:

    - One is NOT in the torments of hell because of EENS.
    - No one is guilty of not joining the Church if he is ignorant of the fact that he has to join it.
    - One is in the torments of hell for the the OTHER mortal sins he likely commits over his life that go unforgiven (Just like any Catholic) because he has no other way to gain forgiveness in the Sacraments.

    Even the Feeney followers hold to that, as well as the MHFM.
    Got it?
    Good.

    One who has not been baptized has original sin just the way a newborn does. Baptism of desire if it does exist, would be so rare as to be foolish to even argue over it.

    What needs to be done is conversion of those who have never been invited to a church, and those who are in false sects like protestantism, Mormonism, JW's, Muslims. That would cover 99.999% of all the people we ever come in contact with.

    FORGET about arguing if imaginary people are "saved" and get to work on doing some saving. Because while you are arguing about this imaginary person who allegedly has Original Sin removed by some mystical desire, (& their infants don't even have access to such a thing), the sects are converting multitudes into their own false religions


    Offline Cantarella

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    BODers Forget about if Imaginery People can be Saved
    « Reply #1 on: February 04, 2014, 12:02:16 PM »
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  • Well said, Bowler. A genuinely Catholic zeal for souls is truly needed and should start from the top.

    St. Francis Xavier, pray for us!
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Jehanne

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    BODers Forget about if Imaginery People can be Saved
    « Reply #2 on: February 04, 2014, 02:15:50 PM »
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  • I agree, and so does the Council of Trent:

    Quote
    CANON XVI.-If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end, unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.


    If we cannot be absolutely sure of our own salvation, how could we be sure of someone else's salvation, especially, a non-Catholic?!  This is the biggest error and heresy of Catholic modernism.

    P.S.  I do not know how anyone, in this digital age, could ever claim to be "invincibly ignorant" of the One True Faith.  Nearly all non-Catholics at least know what the Church claims about the necessity of submission to the Roman Pontiff.  As a young child, I remember my mainline, nonpracticing Protestant mother telling me about the Catholic dogma of EENS!

    Offline Cantarella

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    BODers Forget about if Imaginery People can be Saved
    « Reply #3 on: February 04, 2014, 10:39:03 PM »
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  • Any non-Catholic religion is the devil's means of DISTRACTING attention from the one true faith. There is a Portuguese proverb that goes: "Sweep the stairs from the top", meaning that evangelizing from the bottom up is ineffectual.  I wonder how can we actually convert the ones in power. All of the filth and decadence in our current society comes from the very top.  Preaching to and converting illiterate and uneducated people, although important of course, may not give us the powerful result we need to restore the grandiosity of Catholic civilization on a massive level. I think that the real challenge is converting those that seat in position of power on a global scale. Wouldn't be those from the Jєωιѕн nation, mainly?.

    History repeats itself. One thinks that the present is worst than the past, but this is not true. If one goes deeper, one realizes that every stage of the Church's history is precarious, all of them being clear proof of the Church's supernatural mission, and therefore its inability to coexist peacefully with mammon (the world). There is nothing really new in the long History of the Church and I don't think that the current times of complete apostasy and heresy are hopeless. I refuse to believe that this is a lost cause.

    It is sad to realize that the current belief held by most Americans is that Catholicism is just another religion in the same level than any other sect;  instead of the only true salvific religion. It seem that even the Mormons are doing better than Catholics in winning converts across the country. I am surprised and saddened to find that the relatively young country, the US, is definitely rooted in anti-Catholic ideas.  

    http://truerestoration.wordpress.com/2014/02/03/mormon-missionaries-shift-into-tenth-gear-with-social-media-leave-catholics-in-the-dust/
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    « Reply #4 on: February 05, 2014, 01:18:39 AM »
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  • .

    I first thought the thread title said "Imagery People"

    Then I realized "Imaginary" must have been misspelled.


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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    BODers Forget about if Imaginery People can be Saved
    « Reply #5 on: February 05, 2014, 01:58:01 AM »
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  • Quote from: bowler

    Let's be accurate at least:

    - One is NOT in the torments of hell because of EENS.

    - No one is guilty of not joining the Church if he is ignorant of the fact that he has to join it.

    - One is in the torments of hell for the the OTHER mortal sins he likely commits over his life that go unforgiven (Just like any Catholic) because he has no other way to gain forgiveness in the Sacraments.

    Even the Feeney followers hold to that, as well as the MHFM.
    Got it?
    Good.

    One who has not been baptized has original sin just the way a newborn does. Baptism of desire, if it does exist, would be so rare as to be foolish to even argue over it.

    What needs to be done is conversion of those who have never been invited to a church, and those who are in false sects like protestantism, Mormonism, JW's, Muslims. That would cover 99.999% of all the people we ever come in contact with.

    FORGET about arguing if imaginary people are "saved" and get to work on doing some saving. Because while you are arguing about this imaginary person who allegedly has Original Sin removed by some mystical desire, (& their infants don't even have access to such a thing), the sects are converting multitudes into their own false religions




    The biggest attraction of BoD is to make the excuse for not sharing the Faith with those who don't have it, because after all, there's a good chance they can be saved without Baptism of water.

    In my experience those who argue for BoD too often have very little zeal for the conversion of non-Catholics (there are notable exceptions), and conversely, those who are active evangelizing or in missionary work, very often want to have nothing to do with BoD, because it does not promote the spread of the Faith, because it tells potential converts that Baptism isn't all that important, and "it can wait."  They might even start thinking that they can have a lot more fun in life NOT being baptized right away, because once they are baptized then they become responsible.  

    There was a period in the early Church when that was commonplace, for men to wait until they were on their deathbed before they would ask for Baptism.  That heresy had to be overcome, of course, and it took many, many years to do so.

    And it should be OBVIOUS that preaching BoD was NOT the way that heresy was (or even COULD be) overcome.


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    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline The Penny Catechism

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    BODers Forget about if Imaginery People can be Saved
    « Reply #6 on: February 05, 2014, 06:21:03 AM »
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  • Neil Obstat wrote:  

    "...too often have very little zeal for the conversion of non-Catholics (there are notable exceptions)..."

    Hey man, I've never met you before; how did you know this about me??? (lol).
    Seriously,  thanks for reminding me to get better (& take up in prayer),
    ~ an area of my life that I have failed miserably before Our Lord.

    Offline Cantarella

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    « Reply #7 on: February 05, 2014, 12:39:11 PM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat


    The biggest attraction of BoD is to make the excuse for not sharing the Faith with those who don't have it, because after all, there's a good chance they can be saved without Baptism of water.

    In my experience those who argue for BoD too often have very little zeal for the conversion of non-Catholics (there are notable exceptions), and conversely, those who are active evangelizing or in missionary work, very often want to have nothing to do with BoD, because it does not promote the spread of the Faith, because it tells potential converts that Baptism isn't all that important, and "it can wait."  They might even start thinking that they can have a lot more fun in life NOT being baptized right away, because once they are baptized then they become responsible.  




    Totally true.

    This is completely opposite to the great zeal of souls that our Spaniard / Portuguese / French conquistadores demonstrated, who baptized thousands of natives so at least they had a chance to potentially be saved. This legacy made it possible for Catholicism to truly become universal. Sadly, this the spirit that is lacking today in most Catholics, horribly being misguided under the guise of "Baptism of Desire", "Invincible Ignorance," and "Universal Salvation". One things leads to the other and that is why any serious Catholic worth his salt is resentful and hostile towards those liberal concepts and the dismal consequences that they have really brought to our Faith.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #8 on: February 05, 2014, 02:00:44 PM »
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  • In case anyone does not realize, real people can be invincibly ignorant and have all the other prerequisites the Catholic Church infallibly teaches one can have and be saved within the Church as a non-member.  Nothing imaginary at all about her canonized Saints who were not baptized with water.  
    Nothing imaginary at all about her infallible teaching.  Bye, bye now. :cheers:
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline BTNYC

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    « Reply #9 on: February 05, 2014, 02:07:09 PM »
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  • ERROR 17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. -- Encyclical "Quanto conficiamur," Aug. 10, 1863, etc.

    - The Syllabus of Errors Condemned by Pope Pius IX


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #10 on: February 05, 2014, 02:22:48 PM »
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  • Both of these statements are tremendously profound and rich in theological implication.  Moreover they are much more difficult to explain than any other pronouncements of the teaching Church on this subject.  As a matter of fact, they have all too frequently been misinterpreted by Catholic writers who have examined them superficially or who have, in some instances, even accepted translations which were something less than fully adequate.  In both of these docuмents it is imperative to consider the context in which Pope Pius IX placed his statement and explanation of the dogma.

       The pertinent section of the Singulari quadam includes the following paragraphs:

       
    Quote
    Not without sorrow have we seen that another error, and one not less ruinous [than the error of crass rationalism dealt with in the previous section of the allocution], has taken possession of certain portions of the Catholic world, and has entered into the souls of many Catholics who think that they can well hope for the eternal salvation of all those who have in no way entered into the true Church of Christ.  For that reason they are accustomed to inquire time and time again as to what is going to be the fate and the condition after death of those who have never yielded themselves to the Catholic faith and, convinced by completely inadequate arguments (vanissimisque adductis rationibus), they await a response that will favor this evil teaching.  Far be it from Us, Venerable Brethren, to presume to establish limits to the divine mercy, which is infinite.  Far be it from Us to wish to scrutinize the hidden counsels and judgments of God, which are “a great deep,” and which human thought can never pen[e]trate.  In accordance with Our apostolic duty, We wish to stir up your episcopal solicitude and vigilance to drive out of men’s minds, to the extent to which you are able to use all your energies, that opinion, equally impious and deadly, that the way of eternal salvation can be found in any religion (quavis in religion reperiri posse aeternae salutis viam).  With all the skill and learning at your command, you should prove to the people entrusted to your care that this dogma of the Catholic faith is in no way opposed to the divine mercy and justice.

       Certainly we must hold it as of faith that no one can be saved outside the apostolic Roman Church, that this is the only Ark of salvation, and that the one who does not enter it is going to perish in the deluge.  But, nevertheless, we must likewise hold it as certain that those who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if that [ignorance] be invincible, will never be charged with any guilt on this account before the eyes of the Lord.  Now, who is there who would arrogate to himself the power to indicate the extent of such [invincible] ignorance according to the nature and the variety of peoples, regions, talents, and so many other things?  For really when, loosed from these bodily bonds, we see God as He is, we shall certainly understand with what intimate and beautiful a connection the divine mercy and justice are joined together.  But, while we live on earth, weighed down by this mortal body that darkens the mind, let us hold most firmly, from Catholic doctrine, that there is one God, one faith, one baptism.  It is wrong to push our inquiries further than this.

       For the rest, as the cause of charity demands, let us pour forth continual prayers to God that all nations everywhere may be converted to Christ.  And let us do all in our power to bring about the common salvation of men, for the hand of the Lord is not shortened and the gifts of heavenly grace will never be lacking to those who sincerely wish and pray to be comforted in this light.  Truths of this kind must be deeply implanted in the minds of the faithful so that they may not be corrupted by the false doctrines that tend to encourage the religious indifference (doctrinis eo spectantibus, ut religionis foveant indifferentiam) which we see being spread abroad and strengthened to the ruination of souls. [Denz., 1646-48]


       The teaching of the Singulari quadam is of special importance since the allocution was the first “modern” statement by the Roman Pontiff on the dogma that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.  The intellectual background against which Pope Pius IX taught over one hundred years ago is much the same, fundamentally, as that which exists in our own time.  Hence it is imperative, for a proper understanding of this portion of Catholic teaching, to analyze this statement so as to see exactly what is brought out in this allocution.

       The basic thesis of the Singulari quadam is the assertion that the teaching “no one can be saved outside the apostolic Roman Church” is a dogma of the faith.  It is something to which the assent of faith itself must be given.  As such, it is of course completely infallible.  It is something which can never be corrected or modified.  It must be received as an absolutely true proposition.

       It is interesting, incidentally, to note that Pope Pius IX was faced with a situation quite similar to that which Pope Pius XII described when he wrote his encyclical Humani generis, in August, 1950.  The attack on the dogma of the Church’s necessity for salvation a hundred years ago was not conducted by men who presumed to deny or to suppress the statement that there is no salvation outside the Church.  Their tactic was much more subtle and dangerous: they tried to empty this statement of all real meaning.  They tried to make Catholics believe that there was some hope of salvation for people who had never entered the Church in any way.  The Singular quadam characterizes this contention as a ruinous error.

       Pope Pius XII dealt with a similar situation when he condemned the efforts of those teachers who were trying to reduce the teaching that the Church is necessary for the attainment of eternal salvation “to an empty formula.” [In the encyclical Humani generis.]  Pius IX worked in this direction when he condemned the teaching that there is some hope for the salvation of men who have in no way entered the true Church of Jesus Christ.

       Those who taught inaccurately about the necessity of the Church for salvation a century ago used still another tactic.  They tried to make it appear that there was something unjust about this basic Catholic teaching.  They claimed, directly or by implication, that there was some contradiction between this dogma and the assertions of the faith which teach us that God is all-just and all-merciful.  The allocution Singulari quadam deals with this maneuver also.  Pope Pius IX made it perfectly clear that it is the duty of the hierarchy to prove to the people entrusted to their care that there is no opposition whatsoever between the teaching on the necessity of the Church for the attainment of eternal salvation and the dogmas of the divine justice and mercy.  He presented this teaching, then, as an integral part of true Catholic doctrine.

       As a part of their tactic the opponents of the true Catholic teaching tried to make it appear that a genuine acceptance of the dogma that there is no salvation outside the Church implied the teaching that God would punish men for being invincibly ignorant of the true Church.  Pope Pius IX set out to meet this contention also in the Singulari quadam.  He stated simply that it is certain Catholic truth that God will blame no man for invincible ignorance of the Catholic Church, any more than He will blame anyone for invincible ignorance of anything else.

       Incidentally, on this point, there have been Catholic writers who have been led astray by an incomplete translation of this portion of the Singulari quadam.  The allocution says that people who are invincibly ignorant of the true religion “will never be charged with any guilt on this account before the eyes of the Lord.”  The Latin text reads “. . . qui verae religionis ignorantiam laborent, si ea sit invincibilis, nulla ipsos obstringi huiusce rei culpa ante oculos Domini.”  Some persons have attempted a translation of this passage which takes no account of the words “huiusce rei.”  Such translations tend to present invincible ignorance of the true religion as a sort of sacrament, since they make it appear that the Sovereign Pontiff taught that persons invincibly ignorant of the true religion are simply not blameworthy in the eyes of the Lord.

       The fact of the matter is (and this is the gist of the teaching of Pope Pius IX here and in the encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore) that non-appurtenance [not being attached or joined – J. G.] to the Catholic Church is by no means the only reason why men are deprived of the Beatific Vision.  Ultimately, the only factor that will exclude a man from the eternal and supernatural enjoyment of God in heaven is sin, either original or mortal.  An infant who dies without having been baptized will not have the Beatific Vision because original sin has rendered him incapable of it.  Any man who dies after having attained the use of reason and who is eternally excluded from the Beatific Vision is being punished for actual mortal sin which he has committed.  Such a man may be further prevented from enjoying the Beatific Vision because of the original sin which has not been deleted by baptism.
    Fenton
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline bowler

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    « Reply #11 on: February 05, 2014, 02:53:26 PM »
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  • Quote
        Fenton: The teaching of the Singulari quadam is of special importance since the allocution was the first “modern” statement by the Roman Pontiff on the dogma that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.


    Singulari Quadam is part of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium and  therefore infallible where it reiterates, reaffirms the teaching of the Chair of St. Peter on the Catholic dogma Outside the Church There is No Salvation. The part about invincible ignorance is a novelty, therefore just a fallible opinion. Additionally, Singulari was not as Fenton says the first “modern” statement:
     

    From my thread "Quotes that BODers Say Must Not be Understood as Written ":



    Quote
    The following quotations from many Popes are reaffirmations of the dogma Outside the Church There is No Salvation.  These teachings of the Popes are part of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium – and are therefore infallible – since they reiterate the teaching of the Chair of St. Peter on the Catholic dogma Outside the Church There is No Salvation.


    Pope Leo XII, Ubi Primum (# 14), May 5, 1824:
    “It is impossible for the most true God, who is Truth itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and the Rewarder of good men, to approve all sects who profess false teachings which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal rewards on their members… by divine faith we hold one Lord, one faith, one baptism… This is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church.”

    Pope Leo XII, Quod hoc ineunte (# 8), May 24, 1824: “We address all of you who are still removed from the true Church and the road to salvation.  In this universal rejoicing, one thing is lacking: that having been called by the inspiration of the Heavenly Spirit and having broken every decisive snare, you might sincerely agree with the mother Church, outside of whose teachings there is no salvation.”

    Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos (# 13), Aug. 15, 1832:  “With the admonition of the apostle, that ‘there is one God, one faith, one baptism’ (Eph. 4:5), may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever.  They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that ‘those who are not with Christ are against Him,’ (Lk. 11:23) and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him.  Therefore, ‘without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate (Athanasian Creed).”

    Pope Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio (# 2), May 27, 1832:
    “Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.

    Pope Pius IX, Ubi primum (# 10), June 17, 1847: “For ‘there is one universal Church outside of which no one at all is saved; it contains regular and secular prelates along with those under their jurisdiction, who all profess one Lord, one faith and one baptism.”

    Pope Pius IX, Nostis et Nobiscuм (# 10), Dec. 8, 1849: “In particular, ensure that the faithful are deeply and thoroughly convinced of the truth of the doctrine that the Catholic faith is necessary for attaining salvation. (This doctrine, received from Christ and emphasized by the Fathers and Councils, is also contained in the formulae of the profession of faith used by Latin, Greek and Oriental Catholics).”


    Pope Pius IX, Syllabus of Modern Errors, Dec. 8, 1864 - Proposition 16: “Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation.” – Condemned







    Offline bowler

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    « Reply #12 on: February 05, 2014, 03:05:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    In case anyone does not realize, real people can be invincibly ignorant and have all the other prerequisites the Catholic Church infallibly teaches one can have and be saved within the Church as a non-member.  Nothing imaginary at all about her canonized Saints who were not baptized with water.  
    Nothing imaginary at all about her infallible teaching.  Bye, bye now. :cheers:


    You see what this thread is about that "Baptism of desire if it does exist, would be so rare as to be foolish to even argue over it" and yet you have to put in your two cents worth the lie that "the Catholic Church infallibly teaches one can have and be saved within the Church as a non-member". And you give as an example the like two saints which are purported to have been martyred for the faith without being baptized. Are your lack of examples, not examples that prove my point, that "Baptism of desire if it does exist, would be so rare as to be foolish to even argue over it" ?

    The truth is that what you fanatically defend is your LIBERAL belief that anyone in any religion can be saved even if they don't explicitly desire to be Catholics, nor martyred , nor are invincible ignorant, nor believe in Christ. You are a perfect example of what this thread is about. You are endlessly parroting your LIBERAL teaching that  "the Catholic Church infallibly teaches that anyone can have and be saved within the Church as a non-member".



    Quote from: bowler
    Let's be accurate at least:

    - One is NOT in the torments of hell because of EENS.
    - No one is guilty of not joining the Church if he is ignorant of the fact that he has to join it.
    - One is in the torments of hell for the the OTHER mortal sins he likely commits over his life that go unforgiven (Just like any Catholic) because he has no other way to gain forgiveness in the Sacraments.

    Even the Feeney followers hold to that, as well as the MHFM.
    Got it?
    Good.

    One who has not been baptized has original sin just the way a newborn does. Baptism of desire if it does exist, would be so rare as to be foolish to even argue over it.

    What needs to be done is conversion of those who have never been invited to a church, and those who are in false sects like protestantism, Mormonism, JW's, Muslims. That would cover 99.999% of all the people we ever come in contact with.

    FORGET about arguing if imaginary people are "saved" and get to work on doing some saving. Because while you are arguing about this imaginary person who allegedly has Original Sin removed by some mystical desire, (& their infants don't even have access to such a thing), the sects are converting multitudes into their own false religions

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #13 on: February 06, 2014, 05:15:48 AM »
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  • In case anyone does not realize, real people can be invincibly ignorant and have all the other prerequisites the Catholic Church infallibly teaches one can have and be saved within the Church as a non-member.  Nothing imaginary at all about her canonized Saints who were not baptized with water.
    Nothing imaginary at all about her infallible teaching.  Bye, bye now. :cheers:
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline bowler

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    BODers Forget about if Imaginery People can be Saved
    « Reply #14 on: February 06, 2014, 09:41:41 AM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    LoT,

    The Syllabus of Errors came after both Singulari quadam and Quanto conficiamur moerore:

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    Condemned Error:  Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ.—Encyclical "Quanto conficiamur," Aug. 10, 1863, etc.


    In fact, the Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Blessed Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:

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    "It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned."


    We must at least presume, if not assume, that all non-Catholics are damned and work under that assumption for the salvation of their souls.  Of course, we leave their eternal fate and judgment to that of the One and Triune God.  As Pope Pius IX said in Singulari quadam:

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    It is wrong to push our inquiries further than this.



    You hit the nail on the head. The problem is that that the cat is out of the bag, and semi-universal salvation is the common belief of even "traditionalist" sedevacantes persons like LOT, who are foaming liberals when it comes to BOD, for they TEACH that people are saved regularly every day by their false religion, and that although they don't know it, they are Catholics.

    Like I said:

     
    Quote from: bowler
    Let's be accurate at least:

    - One is NOT in the torments of hell because of EENS.
    - No one is guilty of not joining the Church if he is ignorant of the fact that he has to join it.
    - One is in the torments of hell for the the OTHER mortal sins he likely commits over his life that go unforgiven (Just like any Catholic) because he has no other way to gain forgiveness in the Sacraments.

    Even the Feeney followers hold to that, as well as the MHFM.
    Got it?
    Good.

    One who has not been baptized has original sin just the way a newborn does. Baptism of desire if it does exist, would be so rare as to be foolish to even argue over it.

    What needs to be done is conversion of those who have never been invited to a church, and those who are in false sects like protestantism, Mormonism, JW's, Muslims. That would cover 99.999% of all the people we ever come in contact with.

    FORGET about arguing if imaginary people are "saved" and get to work on doing some saving. Because while you are arguing about this imaginary person who allegedly has Original Sin removed by some mystical desire, (& their infants don't even have access to such a thing), the sects are converting multitudes into their own false religions