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The truth hurts to those who want no part of it.

Quote from: Ladislaus

You know, at the end of the day, we'll have to just wait for the Holy Pope that God will send to restore the Church.  So many have been so deeply poisoned by the modernism that there can be no other remedy.

I pray for that Pope whom God will raise up to reaffirm the dogma EENS and to condemn at least the distorted version of BoD (aka FoD).  I long for the day when everyone will return to the Faith of the Fathers.

Will there be any faith left when Our Lord returns?

In the meantime, I am indeed consoled by those of you I have encountered here who still cling to that Faith.

Thanks, that is why we are here, to speak truth.

As for me, I was surprised that these BODers like Ambrose, SJB, LOT, and Anthonywhatever, Nishant and such, when confronted with the challenge of defending the theory of salvation by implicit faith in Christ (the teaching that someone who has no explicit belief in Christ and the Trinity can be saved) isolated by itself, still fight the same as if we were talking about BOD & BOB of the catechumen. I really did not believe they were that far gone. I expected that when they were presented with the fact that it was taught by no Father, Doctor, Saint, council, and that moreover that it is a declared dogma (and in the ancient Athanasian creed) that for one to be saved one must believe in the Incarnation and the Trinity, I really expected them to change their ways, however, I can see now that they are lost. Indeed BOD & BOB must be like a drug, in that it ends in sheer lunacy, denying clear dogma, and abandoning all common sense, the Fathers, Doctors, Saints and councils!

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie

ON PROMOTION OF FALSE DOCTRINES
QUANTO CONFICIAMUR

That encyclical has nothing to do with the discussion, your posting it shows that you have no evidence, your frustration. That is called an end run, and circular logic. You don't like what someone posts, so you call it a false doctrine by your own cojones, then post QUANTO CONFICIAMUR.

It's obvious to anyone who is honest about this subject of BOD,  that the subject of this tread is that to be saved by baptism of desire, one must have explicit belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity. ALL of you BODers are denying that. You are denying clear dogma.


The Subject of this Thread: BODers say anyone can be saved without explicit belief in Christ


DOGMA:

 

Quote

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity... Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. “But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God is God and man...– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”

If that dogma does not mean what it CLEARLY says, then words have no meaning whatsoever. It is a waste of time to talk to people like you, for you have no regard for dogma. Moreover, it does not phase you one iota that not a Father, Saint, Doctor, or Council ever taught that anyone can be saved without belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity.

If you will not hear clear dogma from the Holy Ghost, no one and nothing will convince you that you are wrong. Be prepared though that if this clear dogma does not mean what it clearly says, then NOTHING that is written means what it says! And you might as well go talk to yourself.

BODers deny Dogma (Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8)

BODers deny Creeds

 Athanasian Creed
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

BODers deny St. Thomas Aquinas:

St. Thomas, Summa Theologica: "After grace had been revealed both the learned and simple folk are bound to explicit faith in the mysteries of Christ chiefly as regards those which are observed throughout the Church, and publicly proclaimed, such as the articles which refer to the Incarnation, of which we have spoken above."(Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.7.)

Saint Thomas, Summa Theologica: "And consequently, when once grace had been revealed, all were bound to explicit faith in the mystery of the Trinity." (Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.8.)

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie

Quote from: Ladislaus

So many words just to say, "I do not believe that there is no salvation outside the Church".

What a waste of space.

Again, your comments are rude and condescending.

The truth hurts to those who want no part of it.

It is not charitable, and it is not kind.  The action divides, rather than gathers.  It demonstrates arrogance and pride.  What part of brotherly love eludes the self-proclaimed champion of truth?

Quote from: Stubborn

God forbid he start a post and champion the defense of the necessity of the sacraments. That would be the Catholic thing to do - - do you agree?

Is this another snare?  Have you scripted your trap?  What is your purpose in this?

My answer is as follows...
http://www.franciscan-archive.org/scotus/opera/Monte-ST3-61.pdf

Have you ever wondered at the insults Fr. Tetzel suffered from the heretics, how they heckled him, misrepresented him, and twisted the true Faith.  

I see the same traits in the Dimonds and their followers and their attitudes towards those who stand up for the Catholic Faith against them.   They mock us for believing and trusting the Church's own Doctors, theologians, catechisms, and Canon Law, while they twist primary sources to favor their heretical and erroneous teachings.