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Bobbing for BOB
« on: March 21, 2014, 12:22:04 PM »
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  • http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/08Sep/sep29str.htm

    Part 1 of this series discussed scholastic dishonesty in a general manner to show how quotes from the authoritative sources can be made to sound as if they have stated unreasonable propositions which they themselves obviously wouldn't. Parts 2 through 4 of this series introduced Peter Dimond's treatise, "Outside the Catholic Church There is Absolutely No Salvation," (hereinafter referred to as "the Treatise"), an attempt which gathers a great deal of material about the question of Baptism of Blood (hereinafter referred to as "BOB") and Baptism of Desire (hereinafter referred to as "BOD"), and there, the standard dogmatic and doctrinal texts, Sacred Scripture, and the Church Fathers were explored to see if their declarations and statements really showed any reason to doubt the Catholic doctrines of BOB and BOD, and to expose some significant instances of scholastic dishonesty employed to make it seem as if they did. Parts 5 through 8 began a consideration of the objections raised and acknowledged as such within the scope of the Treatise, showing that these objections do comprise significant reasons to believe in BOB and BOD despite the wretched attempts in the Treatise to minimize their impact.

        When I was a child, I remember being a rather fussy eater, and I recall there being many things set before me on dinner plates that I would not, could not, bring myself to eat. The problem of course was that, since it was there on my plate, I couldn't very well just leave it alone and not eat it. Often I was told to "try it," which I knew to be futile since I needed no further reason to be repelled by it. So at least some of it simply HAD to disappear, somehow.

        A little bit might actually be eaten (for I had to be seen eating it at least once), but as for the rest, the game was to find ways to minimize what was left, to find ways of rearranging the remaining unwanted food to make it look like as little as possible was left in proportion to how much actually remained. For example, you find that you can't make it too tall, for that would stick out and be too conspicuous. And if you make it too wide it covers too much of the plate and that is also not good. So one had to find just the right width and height as a balance between the two to make it seem like there was as little as possible. And making it kind of rounded in shape also kept the height and width small while concealing as much as possible. One could also distribute small portions of it here and there to further reduce the size of any particular pile and make it harder to see at a glance just how little was actually eaten.

        Also, there were sometimes other things on the plate that could be legitimately present, and thus used as hiding places, for example by hiding some unwanted lima beans (anyone but me remember those?) under the bone from a steak, or inside the hollow shell of a baked and now consumed potato. Sometimes, if the unwanted food is particularly sticky, some of it could be hid under the raised rim of the plate (always on the side of the plate away from everyone else). The only extreme I never recall resorting to was the removal from the plate to some pocket in my clothing (though I remember reading of such a thing being used in tricking the Welsh Giant in the fairy tale of Jack the Giant Killer), since I didn't want to have to deal with what would be said when the stains and mess are located at laundry time.

        Of course, now I can only look back on such childish shenanigans with regret, conscious of the fact that I probably thus wasted more food in a week than some kids in other parts of the world can ever get in a month. And the only mitigation to that I can offer is that if there had been any way to teleport the unwanted food from my plate to theirs I would have gladly done it. Nevertheless, the practical upshot of such events of my life is that the skill is one I know well, and therefore one I can easily recognize when used by others.

        When there is a wealth of adverse information against one's position, it is always a difficult and delicate affair to decide just how all of this will be handled. Those who would want to deny BOB and BOD have a great deal to conceal, and it is interesting to see the methods used to minimize the sheer bulk of just how many, many objections there really are to be made their denials of BOB and BOD throughout the Treatise. By far the easiest path might have been to simply ignore any and all such objections. Back in the 1940's when the Jesuit Fr.Leonard Feeney himself and his associates at his St. Benedict Center were first positing their denials of BOB and BOD, this path could be and was reasonably taken, since the Church had never heard of any such idea before (not since Peter Abélard anyway, and that's pretty obscure and a long time ago to boot) and as such had no specific objections to such an error/heresy to respond to it with.

        But as Fr. Feeney and his associates became more harsh and strident in their peculiar "interpretation" of "No salvation outside the Church," and their position better known (and also hardening more into its final form), objections began to surface quite rapidly, and soon could no longer be ignored. So now, instead of merely stating their position and expecting it to stand as though it were self evident, they now had to begin defending their position against various objections that were being presented. Between then and now, only all the more objections have been made by the Church to respond to such denials of Catholic doctrines. Furthermore, most of these responses have become quite well-known to the general Catholic public. To ignore them all is simply no longer strategic. To someone completely new to the question such a complete omission of any mention of any objections might initially seem persuasive, but such "new converts" to the erroneous theory would rapidly melt away as objections are brought to their attention by friends and loved ones and practically anyone to whom they convey their exciting new teachings.

        The Dimond brothers, cognizant of how much common knowledge all these objections have become, obviously realized from the outset that such an approach would not work. Perhaps one or two small things could be passed over in complete silence, but as many as their readership may likely encounter all had to be seemingly "addressed." This of course leaves them with quite a pile of objections, which together with whatever "responses" they could make to them, would have to have made up something like better than 90% of their Treatise. That's an awful lot of unwanted food to hide on the plate.

        What I have addressed thus far is only that which they have openly had to admit as objections by placing them within their "Objections" Sections, 16 and 17. But obviously there are a great many more objections to make to the denials of BOB and BOD than those listed in Sections 16 and 17. Not that they could ignore all these other objections, but like hiding the lima beans under the steak bones many of them are brought up and "addressed" in various other parts of the Treatise. Having responded to their feeble attempts to "address" the various objections cataloged in Sections 16 and 17 of the Treatise, I now turn my attention to those further objections indirectly addressed only in other portions of the Treatise.

        The other day, I had occasion to pause in front of a memorial to the Missing In Action and/or Prisoners of War (MIA-POW) of our various armed forces on our nearby military base. There were some 78,000 such military men (and possibly some women as well) unaccounted for during World War Two, 8,100 unaccounted for from the Korean Conflict, and 2,300 such unaccounted from the Vietnam War. Some 20 who were all drawn from the immediate area around our base, and who served in the United States Army, the United States Air Force, the United States Navy, and the United States Marine Corps, were also specifically commemorated in this particular memorial by name, "Lest We Forget" that some few of them might still be alive out there somewhere, perhaps wasting away in unofficial and undocumented prison camps, if not actually dead.

        Given all the many soldiers who have given their lives in all the battles throughout all the ages, some in just wars and others in unjust, the wonder is that Baptism of Blood never seems to have been abused in anywhere near like the manner that Baptism of Desire was being abused in mid-twentieth Century Boston to which Fr. Feeney and his compatriots so virulently reacted. Those who died in battle sacrificed their lives for their families, their friends, and their loved ones, for their country, for the cause of Freedom, Liberty, Justice, Democracy, the King, or whatever, for their friends and fellow soldiers in the regiment. They died in the line of duty.

        One can hope and pray for as many of them as possible to have been saved, but of course God alone knows who among them died worthily and who did not, and who (from among these POW-MIAs in particular) would still be alive somewhere. And just as many have given their lives in the defense of the various secular nations and kingdoms of the earth down throughout the ages, there are those who have given their lives in the cause of Christ.

        In discussions (or arguments, often quite heated) between those who deny BOB and BOD, and those who believe the Catholic doctrines of BOB and BOD, it is Baptism of Desire that gets the brunt of attention. There are two reasons for this, one which is legitimate and one which is manipulative. The legitimate reason is that Baptism of Blood, unlike the other, does not seem to be getting abused much at all. It is after all restricted to those who have been martyred and of course after the ancient times the actual martyrs have been significantly a minority among us. Not even the feasible abuse of ascribing BOB to those who gave their lives unselfishly for some worldly or national cause, for example in wars as soldiers of any secular army, appears to have occurred to any detectible degree. In Fr. Feeney's time however, BOD was already being extended into further and further scenarios as to "save" all sorts of persons whose relation to the Church is quite tenuous at best, and altogether nonexistent at worst.

        We have a somewhat similar comparison with the case of dissolving matrimony. There are two basic ways a married couple can break up, free to marry in the Church. One is the well-known annulment in which some defect of form, matter, intent, or minister of the sacrament is discovered (e. g. a former spouse of one of the partners thought to be dead in fact turning out to be alive after all). The other is the bona fide divorce which only applies to those coming from outside the Church and non-sacramentally married there, then one converts and the other either persecutes or leaves the one on account of reasons of faith, otherwise known as the Pauline Privilege (in the case of those coming from the unbaptized, such as Buddhists), and its partner the Petrine Privilege (in the case of those coming from other churches with a valid baptism, such as Methodists). You always hear about annulments for they are the instrument that is being abused to such a great degree these past several decades. But meanwhile the miniscule trickle of divorces remains as small as ever. BOD, like annulments today, was totally out of control whereas BOB, like lawful divorces, remains true to its truly exceptional and rare category. Therefore it is annulments that have become the scandal today, not lawful divorces. Likewise, the grave abuses of BOD were a scandal whereas the small category of BOB scandalized no one. And perhaps if only BOD had not been so abused as it had come to be in the mid-twentieth Century, there would be no one going around denying both.

        The illegitimate and manipulative reason is this: The case for BOB is undeniably so much stronger, especially among the Ancient Fathers, and with the unbaptized saint-martyrs, than the case for BOD as to make it something those who deny both will gladly shift attention away from as quickly as possible. So weak indeed is any possible case against BOB that Peter Abélard, in choosing to oppose BOD, didn't even think of also denying BOB. And Michel Baius, despite being the only one to concoct in detail a "theology" compatible to a pseudo-Christian system of belief that would exclude BOB and BOD, never thought of opposing either of these doctrines. For that reason I here have elected to focus on precisely that weakest part of Fr. Feeney's and Peter Dimond's teachings.

        The teaching regarding the outcome of those who give their lives for Christ as they ought when so persecuted has not been challenged, or at least not until the mid-twentieth Century. It has always been a case of their being directly introduced to the glories of Heaven, an automatic cleansing of any purgatorial sentence they might otherwise have endured at their time of death. And to whatever extent their sufferings in the course of their martyrdom exceeded that necessary to cleanse away all temporal suffering due them in Purgatory, these additional amounts added to the Treasury of merit from which the Church draws Indulgences.

        Of all the many canonized martyred saints of the Church, it is generally understood or accepted that there were approximately just under two dozen such who are believed to have been baptized "in their own blood" by having died under persecution without having been baptized in water. I do not purport to list all of them, but at least a representative sampling. One would think that the bare presence of such saints on the calendar, in the Roman Martyrology, and given in various volumes of the Lives of the Saints (such as that of Venerable Bede, or Fr. Alban Butler's), would be the ultimate nail in the coffin for anyone who would seek to deny the Catholic doctrine of Baptism of Blood. Before getting to how the Treatise (and other similar works) responds to these holy saints, allow me to recount here such examples as I have encountered:

        There seem to be several categories of such saints here. The first category would be those who are stated in the accounts as being catechumens. Of this category we have the example of Saint Emerentiana. The Catholic Encyclopedia gives this account of her life:

    Virgin and martyr, d. at Rome in the third century. The old Itineraries to the graves of the Roman martyrs, after giving the place of burial on the Via Nomentana of St. Agnes, speak of St. Emerentiana. Over the grave of St. Emerentiana a church was built which, according to the Itineraries, was near the church erected over the place of burial of St. Agnes, and somewhat farther from the city wall. In reality Emerentiana was interred in the coemeterium majus located in this vicinity not far from the coemeterium Agnetis. Armellini believed that he had found the original burial chamber of St. Emerentiana in the former coemeterium. According to the legend of St. Agnes Emerentiana was her foster-sister. Some days after the burial of St. Agnes Emerentiana, who was still a catechumen, went to the grave to pray, and while praying she was suddenly attacked by the pagans and killed with stones. Her feast is kept on 23 January. In the "Martyrologium Hieronymianum" she is mentioned under 16 September, with the statement: In coemeterio maiore. She is represented with stones in her lap, also with a palm or lily.
        So, she was a catechumen, who went to pray at the tomb of St. Agnes, and who was then stoned on the spot. Then we have Saint Victor of Braga, of whom the Roman Martyrology and Vasaeus record:

    Saint Victor: At Braga in Portugal, of Saint Victor, Martyr, who while still a catechumen refused to worship an idol, and confessed Christ Jesus with great constancy; wherefore after many torments, he merited to be baptized in his own blood, his head being cut off. Victor of Braga Martyr (Red Martyr): Died c. 300. In his chronicle, Vasaeus records that Saint Victor was baptized by blood. The catechumen was beheaded at Braga, Portugal, under Diocletian for refusing to sacrifice to idols (Benedictines, Husenbeth).
        Then we have Saint Plutarch and his Seven Companions including two who were also catechumens, of whom the Martyrology states:

    At Alexandria, in the persecution of Severus, the holy martyrs Plutarch, Serenus, Heraclides a catechumen, Heron a neophyte, another Serenus, Rhais a catechumen, Potamioena, and Marcella her mother. Among them the virgin Potamioena is particularly distinguished. She first endured many very painful trials for the preservation of her virginity, and then cruel and unheard of torments for the faith, after which she and her mother were consumed with fire.
        In the next category we have those who decided on the spot that they would rather die with these Christians than live in a society so decadent and unworthy as to put to death these evidently innocent, yet brave and noble people (the Christians) for no reason other than their own sadistic pleasure. These are often people who had very little idea what it even meant to be a Christian (Catholic) but who saw in them reason to make this supreme sacrifice as a spur of the moment decision. Of this category we have the Forty Martyrs of Sebaste, among whom was one generally accepted as having not had an opportunity to be baptized. The Catholic Encyclopedia gives this account of their martyrdom:

    A party of soldiers who suffered a cruel death for their faith, near Sebaste, in Lesser Armenia, victims of the persecutions of Licinius, who, after the year 316, persecuted the Christians of the East. The earliest account of their martyrdom is given by St. Basil, Bishop of Caesarea (370-379), in a homily delivered on the feast of the Forty Martyrs (Hom. xix in P.G., XXXI, 507 sqq.). The feast is consequently more ancient than the episcopate of Basil, whose eulogy on them was pronounced only fifty or sixty years after martyrdom, which is thus historic beyond a doubt. According to St. Basil, forty soldiers who had openly confessed themselves Christians were condemned by the prefect to be exposed naked upon a frozen pond near Sebaste on a bitterly cold night, that they might freeze to death. Among the confessors, one yielded and, leaving his companions, sought the warm baths near the lake which had been prepared for any who might prove inconstant. One of the guards set to keep watch over the martyrs beheld at this moment a supernatural brilliancy overshadowing them and at once proclaimed himself a Christian, threw off his garments, and placed himself beside the thirty-nine soldiers of Christ. Thus the number of forty remained complete. At daybreak, the stiffened bodies of the confessors, which still showed signs of life, were burned and the ashes cast into a river. The Christians, however, collected the precious remains, and the relics were distributed throughout many cities; in this way the veneration paid to the Forty Martyrs became widespread, and numerous churches were erected in their honor.
        According to Fr. Butler in his Lives of the Saints:

    There lived an Nantes an illustrious young nobleman, called Donatian, who, having received the sacrament of regeneration, led a most edifying life, and laid himself out with much zeal to converting others to faith in Christ. His elder brother, Rogatian, was not able to resist the moving example of his piety … and desired to be baptized. But the bishop having withdrawn and concealed himself for fear of persecution, he was not able to receive that sacrament, but was shortly after baptized in his blood.
        The Catholic Encyclopedia and Venerable Bede have the following to say of Saint Alban, and more notably to all this here, of his would-be executioner:

    Catholic Encyclopedia, regarding St. Alban: First martyr of Britain, suffered c. 304. The commonly received account of the martyrdom of St. Alban meets us as early as the pages of Bede's "Ecclesiastical History" (Bk. I, chs. vii and xviii). According to this, St. Alban was a pagan living at Verulamium (now the town of St. Albans in Hertfordshire), when a persecution of the Christians broke out, and a certain cleric flying for his life took refuge in Alban's house. Alban sheltered him, and after some days, moved by his example, himself received baptism. Later on, when the governor's emissaries came to search the house, Alban disguised himself in the cloak of his guest and gave himself up in his place. He was dragged before the judge, scourged, and, when he would not deny his faith, condemned to death. On the way to the place of execution Alban arrested the waters of a river so that they crossed dry-shod, and he further caused a fountain of water to flow on the summit of the hill on which he was beheaded. His executioner was converted, and the man who replaced him, after striking the fatal blow, was punished with blindness.
        Venerable Bede (based on the previous source of Gildas) adds regarding the would-be executioner: But the executioner, who was so wicked as to imbrue his sacrilegious hands in the martyr's sacred blood, was not permitted to rejoice at his death; for his eyes dropped to the ground at the same moment as the blessed martyr's head. At the same time was also beheaded there, the soldier, who before, through a divine inspiration, had refused to execute the sentence on the martyr: - concerning whom it is evident, that, though he was not baptized at the baptismal font, yet he was cleansed with the laver of his own blood, and made worthy to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

        Yet another such saint is Saint Genesius of Arles, of whom the Catholic Encyclopedia states:

    A notary martyred under Maximianus in 303 or 308. Feast, 25 Aug. He is honoured as patron of notaries, and invoked against chilblains and scurf. The Acts (Acta SS., Aug., V, 123, and Ruinart, 559), attributed to St. Paulinus of Nola, state: Genesius, native of Arles, at first a soldier became known for his proficiency in writing, and was made secretary to the magistrate of Arles. While performing the duties of his office the decree of persecution against the Christians was read in his presence. Outraged in his ideas of justice, the young catechumen cast his tablets at the feet of the magistrate and fled. He was captured and executed, and thus received baptism in his own blood. His veneration must be very old, as his name is found in the ancient martyrology ascribed to St. Jerome. A church and altar dedicated to him at Arles were known in the fourth century.
        There is also the case of the Prefect Maximus, who like the above examples chose to die with Saint Cecilia's husband and his brother rather than live in a world capable of putting such to death. The Catholic Encyclopedia gives this account of the life of Saint Celilia within which mention is made of this Maximus:

    Cecilia, a virgin of a senatorial family and a Christian from her infancy, was given in marriage by her parents to a noble pagan youth Valerianus. When, after the celebration of the marriage, the couple had retired to the wedding-chamber, Cecilia told Valerianus that she was betrothed to an angel who jealously guarded her body; therefore Valerianus must take care not to violate her virginity. Valerianus wished to see the angel, whereupon Cecilia sent him to the third milestone on the Via Appia where he should meet Bishop (Pope) Urbanus. Valerianus obeyed, was baptized by the pope, and returned a Christian to Cecilia. An angel then appeared to the two and crowned them with roses and lilies. When Tiburtius, the brother of Valerianus, came to them, he too was won over to Christianity. As zealous children of the Faith both brothers distributed rich alms and buried the bodies of the confessors who had died for Christ. The prefect, Turcius Almachius, condemned them to death; an officer of the prefect, Maximus, appointed to execute this sentence, was himself converted and suffered martyrdom with the two brothers. Their remains were buried in one tomb by Cecilia. And now Cecilia herself was sought by the officers of the prefect. Before she was taken prisoner, she arranged that her house should be preserved as a place of worship for the Roman Church. After a glorious profession of faith, she was condemned to be suffocated in the bath of her own house. But as she remained unhurt in the overheated room, the prefect had her decapitated in that place. The executioner let his sword fall three times without separating the head from the trunk, and fled, leaving the virgin bathed in her own blood. She lived three days, made dispositions in favour of the poor, and provided that after her death her house should be dedicated as a church. Urbanus buried her among the bishops and the confessors, i.e. in the Catacomb of Callistus.
        Finally, in this category we have Saint Evilasius who died together with Saint Fausta whom he had persecuted. The Martyrology has this to say of their martyrdom:

    At Cyzicum, on the sea of Marmora , the birthday of the holy martyrs Evilasius and the virgin Fausta, in the time of Emperor Maximian. Fausta's head was shaved to shame her, and she was hung up and tortured by Evilasius, then a pagan priest. But when he wished to have her body cut in two, the executioners could not inflict any injury upon her. Amazed at this prodigy, Evilasius believed in Christ and was cruelly tortured by order of the emperor; at the same time Fausta had her head bored through and her whole body pierced with nails. She was then laid on a heated gridiron, and being called by a celestial voice, went in company with Evilasius to enjoy the blessedness of heaven.
        This last case is an actual example of exactly the scenario discussed by Pope Innocent II when he wrote about the situation of the unbaptized priest, with the one exception that the unbaptized priest being written about by the Pope here was not the holy martyr Saint Evilasius, but some other who simply died of natural causes before getting a legitimate opportunity to be baptized: when he wrote about the situation of the unbaptized priest:

    Pope Innocent II, Baptism of Desire (an unbaptized priest) [From the letter "Apostolicam Sedem" to the Bishop of Cremona, of uncertain time]: "To your inquiry we respond thus: We assert without hesitation (on the authority of the holy fathers Augustine and Ambrose) that the priest whom you indicated (in your letter) had died without the water of baptism, because he persevered in the faith of holy mother Church and in the confession of the name of Christ, was freed from original sin and attained the joy of the heavenly fatherland. Read (brother) in the eighth book of Augustine's City of God where, among other things it is written, 'Baptism is ministered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion but death excludes.' Read again in the book of the blessed Ambrose concerning the death of Valentinian where he says the same thing. Therefore, to questions concerning the dead, you should hold the opinions of the learned Fathers, and in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the priest mentioned (Apostolicam Sedem)."
        The next category is that of those who receive spurious "baptisms," which are not counted as valid by the Church. The most common situation of this category was those of actors who, in various farcical roles poking fun of Christianity, pretended baptism as part of the play, but with clearly no valid intent on the part of either the minister or recipient of this pretended "sacrament," but then convicted of sin and desiring Heaven they repented on the spot and are otherwise much like those above who decided on the spot to die with the Christians rather than live with those who kill Christians for pleasure. Among this category of saints is Saint Ardalion, of whom it is said:

    The Holy Martyr Ardalion accepted death for Christ under the emperor Maximian Galerius (305-311). Saint Ardalion was a talented mimic actor.
        One time at the circus he played the role of a Christian. The actor, on the intent of the play-author, was to at first refuse to offer sacrifice to idols, but later to consent to renounce Christ. Along the course of the action they suspended him upon a wooden torture device and tore at him with iron hooks. He so naturally depicted the suffering, that the spectators were delighted and loudly declared their praise of his artistry. Suddenly the saint ordered all to be quiet and declared, that he actually was a Christian and did not renounce the Lord. The governor of the city tried to explain the matter thus, that Saint Ardalion was continuing to play the role, and at the end of the show he would renounce Christ and offer sacrifice to the gods. But Saint Ardalion continued to confess his faith in Christ. Then the governor gave orders to throw the martyr onto a red-hot iron-pan. Thus did Saint Ardalion merit a martyr's crown.

        After that comes the matter of Saint Genesius of Rome, of whom the Catholic Encyclopedia states:

    A comedian at Rome, martyred under Diocletian in 286 or 303. Feast, 25 August. He is invoked against epilepsy, and is honored as patron of theatrical performers and of musicians. The legend (Acta SS., Aug., V, 119) relates: Genesius, the leader of a theatrical troupe in Rome, performing one day before the Emperor Diocletian, and wishing to expose Christian rites to the ridicule of his audience, pretended to receive the Sacrament of Baptism. When the water had been poured upon him he proclaimed himself a Christian. Diocletian at first enjoyed the realistic play, but, finding Genesius to be in earnest, ordered him to be tortured and then beheaded. He was buried on the Via Tiburtina. His relics are said to be partly in San Giovanni della Pigna, partly in S. Susanna di Termini and in the chapel of St. Lawrence. The legend was dramatized in the fifteenth century; embodied in later years in the oratorio "Polus Atella" of Löwe (d. 1869), and still more recently in a work by Weingartner (Berlinn 1892). The historic value of the Acts, dating from the seventh century, is very doubtful, though defended by Tillemont (Mémoires, IV s. v. Genesius). The very existence of Genesius is called into question, and he is held to be a Roman counterpart of St. Gelasius (or Gelasinus) of Hierapolis (d. 297). He was venerated, however, at Rome in the fourth century: a church was built in his honor very early, and was repaired and beautified by Gregory III in 741.
        In this exact same category is also Saint Porphyry, of whom the Martyrology recounts:

    Also, Saint Porphyry, a comedian, who was baptized in jest in the presence of Julian the Apostate, but suddenly converted by the power of God and declared himself a Christian. By order of the emperor he was thereupon struck with an axe, and thus crowned with martyrdom.
        Though the number of these unbaptized martyr-saints of the Church is obviously small, the bare existence of even so much as one of them would be enough to show the denial of Baptism of Blood to be categorically false. The unbaptized martyrs have been one of the biggest thorns in the side of the Dimond brothers, Fr. Feeney and his followers, and in fact all of those attempting to deny this particular Catholic teaching. For if what the Church says of these saints is true (that they were never sacramentally baptized), then if what these people say were also true then these "saints" would burning in Hell, or at the very least, eternally deprived of the Beatific Vision. Yet the Church calls them saints, even if rather minor and poorly known saints.

        The only "out" possible has been to claim that this small handful of saints did somehow, no doubt secretly, get sacramentally baptized in water at some point. The only other recourse is to ignore them, or at least speak of as few of them as possible. After all, one or two are much easier to explain away than a dozen, and your typical concerned Catholic who encounters this error, while often unable to think of the name of any such unbaptized martyr-saint, is nevertheless aware that there are some few such known to the Church. Since none of then are terribly well-known, it is easy for those who deny BOB to limit their list of examples to some very few, and furthermore to those that might admit some plausible scenario for having somehow gotten water-baptized somewhere along the way.

        In the Treatise, this strategy is employed by restricting the actual saints thus used for illustration to only three, namely Saint Emerentiana, the forty martyrs of Sebaste (of which only the fortieth is of significance to this account), and Saint Alban and his guard. Of these, Saint Emerentiana is best known (and so could not be left out), though she alone does not get a subheading as the other two do.

        So, besides limiting such examples to the paltry three it actually names, what does the Treatise do to explain these away? He starts with the easiest two. The story of St. Alban is the easiest for him to explain away since St. Alban reportedly performed a number of miracles with water, such making a river dry up, or causing water to well up out of the earth. It is quite clear from the accounts (such as they are) that these prodigies were performed to show the crowd that St. Alban, due to his sainthood in Christ, had the power of God behind him, and it is due to these miracles that certain ones converted, including most notably the guard appointed to keep him in custody and then slaughter him when the command is given. The speculation is offered that with all this ability to create water out of thin air, what was to stop St. Alban from using some of it to baptize the converted guard? Of all the unbaptized saints of the Church, this is plainly the one for whom such a plausible scenario could be most easily conjured up. Never mind the explicit statement from the account to the effect that he had not been baptized, presence of water and saint notwithstanding. We see this claim plainly in the Treatise when we see it saying:

    We have two (fallible) accounts of the martyrdom of St. Alban and his guard, from St. Bede and Butler's Lives of the Saints. They both record that just before the martyrdom of St. Alban and his guard, St. Alban prayed for "water" which he miraculously received! St. Bede then goes on to say that the guard died unbaptized! Butler's says that the water was merely to "refresh" Alban's thirst! With all due respect to St. Bede and the good things in Butler's, how obvious does it have to be? A saint, who had a few minutes to live and who had a convert wanting to enter the Church of Christ, would not call for miraculous water in order to "refresh his thirst"! My goodness, he obviously called for the miraculous water to baptize the converted guard...
    But contrast that with the bold and specific statement of Venerable Bede:
    Venerable Bede: At the same time was also beheaded there, the soldier, who before, through a divine inspiration, had refused to execute the sentence on the martyr: - concerning whom it is evident, that, though he was not baptized at the baptismal font, yet he was cleansed with the laver of his own blood, and made worthy to enter into the kingdom of heaven.
        It is one thing to claim that an account merely omits mention of how or when the saint got baptized, but quite another when it is explicit in denying that he was ever baptized in water. Needless to say, the only actual quote from Venerable Bede given in the Treatise comes from a different part of his account:

    St. Bede: As he reached the summit, holy Alban asked God to give him (Alban) water, and at once a perennial spring bubbled up at his feet…
        The other account easily used in the Treatise is that of the Forty Martyrs of Sebaste. In this case, the speculation is offered, based on a proclamation of the fortieth that he was a Christian, that he must have been already baptized:

    They say that he was unbaptized, but that he joined himself with the other thirty-nine martyrs and froze to death for Christ on the lake. The fact is that there is no proof that the fortieth martyr of Sebaste was unbaptized, whose identity is unknown. The accounts of the story reveal that he "cried out with a loud voice that he was a Christian," probably because he was already a baptized Catholic who was spurred on to martyrdom by the example of the other thirty-nine.
        Dimond then speculates that this fortieth might have been among those visiting the forty (which then included a previous fortieth who abandoned the rest to escape martyrdom) in prison while awaiting this execution, and perhaps somehow being baptized. Far more reasonable would be to speculate that this new fortieth got baptized somewhere else, or for that matter that one of the remaining thirty-nine could have baptized him, for they WERE on a lake after all. Oh but wait a minute, the lake was frozen. But even so couldn’t some disciple have punched a hole in the lake and used that water to baptize? One can only wonder why the Treatise had recourse to the scenario given, unless as an excuse to bring in another "quote."

        But really, nothing real can be made of any such declaration, made on the spur of the moment, of one's being a Christian, when plainly they made that declaration merely so as to be counted worthy to die with the rest. It's kind of like the humorous situation in which a man (whose son is in the Boy Scouts) gets a phone call from the Scoutmaster asking for some volunteer help from some of the parents of some of the boys in his group. "I'm getting really exasperated here. I have been calling almost every father of every boy in my troop to please volunteer some time, and none of them have been willing to come and help me. To hear these men talk you would think they work 25 hours a day, eight days a week! Can I count on your help?" to which the man replied to the Scoutmaster, "Sorry, I work for the same company those other guys do." No, obviously he doesn't work for the same literal employer as the others, who no doubt in fact have various employers, but what he is saying is that he can be counted as being in the same category as as those other guys. And back to the present case wherein harmless citizens were being put to death for no valid reason one sees a grave and hideous wrong being perpetrated, one that cannot be stopped, but one which they can give their life in making a significant point about. "Count me as one of these Whatever-they-are's as just another one of your innocent victims."

        It really all just goes to show the extremes to which someone will go to explain away the counterexamples that falsify their thesis, as I have even come across such explanations as someone having been drowned, cried over, rained on, or spat at, etc. (though these last don't appear in the Treatise nor in any of the similar works I intend to further address when I have completed Peter Dimond's Treatise), at least in the words of private defenders of the denial of BOB and BOD, desperate to preserve their position at any cost. This is not the first appearance of such fanciful explanations by any means. In the ancient age of the Fathers, there was a somewhat different contention being made that either the original 12 Apostles were not baptized (since the Bible never mentions specifically that they were - but it doesn't deny it either), or else that if they were it would have to be in the Scripture. Others, in responding to such a contention, actually managed to "find" it in Scripture, and let's hear how Tertullian characterized such a contention, and what he had to say about it:

    Tertullian, On Baptism, Chapter XII - Of the Necessity of Baptism to Salvation (123-124): Others make the suggestion (forced enough, clearly) "that the apostles then served the turn of baptism when in their little ship, were sprinkled and covered with the waves: that Peter himself also was immersed enough when he walked on the sea." It is, however, as I think, one thing to be sprinkled or intercepted by the violence of the sea; another thing to be baptized in obedience to the discipline of religion.
        So, Tertullian describes such claims as "forced," which is to say, like jamming a square peg into a round hole (or at least a round peg into a square hole), and then goes on to explain the obvious distinction between such accidental and plainly non-sacramental encounters with moisture versus the use of valid water in the Sacrament of Baptism. Is that really any different from the claim that St. Alban used his newly-made water (as against all accounts)? And we can safely relegate all attempts to "explain" how the unbaptized martyr-saints might have secretly obtained a "water baptism" to the exact same category.

        The most difficult, and therefore the least well-handled is that of Saint Emerentiana. In her case, there simply is no plausible explanation for her to have met the water under any circumstances. There was no jail interment during which some visitor or fellow prisoner could have baptized her, no carrying her off somewhere during which she could have encountered a puddle of water and some secret disciple, and her status at the time of her martyrdom is yea verily established as having been a catechumen.

        It is in this one area of the unbaptized martyrs that the Treatise manages to compare unfavorably with other such anti-BOB and anti-BOD literature, and where its author Peter Dimond relies most heavily upon the work of others, by far most notably Brother Robert Mary, M. I. C. M., author of Father Feeney and the Truth About Salvation, which he quotes at length. Of that other work as a whole, more will be said in a later installment, but several paragraphs of it are quoted in full in the Treatise as the response to the Catholic doctrine of Baptism of Blood as applied to the life of Saint Emerentiana. The first relevant couple Robert Mary paragraphs quoted reads thus:

    The present Roman Martyrology is a catalogue of saints honored by the Church, not only those martyred for the Faith. It first appeared in 1584, and was derived from ancient martyrologies that existed in the fourth century, plus official and non-official records taken from acts of the martyrs that date back to the second century. It has been revised several times since its first compilation. When he was assigned to revise the ancient accounts, Saint Robert Bellarmine himself had to be restrained from overly skeptical editorial deletions.
        This is of course a plain attempt to undermine the reliability of the Martyrology of the Church, so as to provide an excuse for writing events (such as a fictitious "water baptism") into the lives of saints which the source document provides no basis for doing. The claim boils down to "Since the Martyrology is so unreliable we feel free to question or doubt any claim made therein which is not consistent with our peculiar beliefs." By that exact same token miraculous events in the lives get explained away by modernists and other secular materialists. The extended quote from Robert Mary's book continues in the Treatise as follows:

    First, it was not the intent of those who first reported the circumstances of the deaths of the martyrs to provide information from which 'baptismal registers' could later be compiled. If the chronicler makes no mention of the martyr's Baptism, it does not necessarily mean that he was never baptized. A case in point is Saint Patrick. He was not a martyr, but his Baptism was never recorded. Yet, we know positively that he received the sacrament since he was a bishop.
       Next, even if a chronicler states positively that a martyr had not been baptized, it should be understood to mean that he was 'not recorded' as having been baptized. In those times especially, no person could hope to know with certainty that another had not been baptized.

        In the first of these "points," he claims that a mere lack of mention of some saint's baptism does not mean that the saint was unbaptized. This utterly fails to address the fact that the unbaptized martyrs are not merely those whose baptisms go unmentioned, but whose supposed baptisms are not believed to have occurred. Recall for example the above situation of St. Alban of whom Venerable Bede wrote of At. Alban's guard that "though he was not baptized at the baptismal font, yet he was cleansed with the laver of his own blood, and made worthy to enter into the kingdom of heaven." Clearly this is not a matter of this guard's baptism not having been recorded, but of being believed not to have occurred at all. So this case doesn't even apply to the unbaptized martyr-saints.

        The second paragraph elucidates a patently false principle for which neither Peter Dimond nor Robert Mary nor can anyone else provide any basis for. This was quite specifically introduced to try to explain away such mentions (as that in Venerable Bede) as do frequently occur in these unbaptized martyr-saint accounts. It basically amounts to claiming, "Even though the account positively states that something didn't happen, all that means is that they didn't know for sure whether or not it happened and so therefore we are free to conclude yea verily that it did happen." It makes a big deal about someone's baptism being "not recorded," as though it really were the intention of the Martyrology to serve as a baptismal register, as though he hadn't stated the exact reverse in the first paragraph. The excuses continue, thus:

    Third, if a chronicler says that a martyr was 'baptized in his own blood', this does not automatically preclude (rule out) prior reception of the sacrament with water. When Christ referred to His coming Passion as a 'Baptism', He had already been baptized by Saint John in the Jordan.
       Fourth, 'baptism of blood' should be understood as the greatest act of love of God that a man can make. God rewards it with direct entrance into heaven for those who are already baptized and in the Church: no purgatory --- it is a perfect confession. If it were capable of substituting for any sacrament, it would be the sacrament of Penance, because Penance does not oblige with a necessity of means, but precept only.

       In his book Church History, Father John Laux, M. A., writes:

    If he [the Christian] was destined to lose his life, he had been taught that martyrdom was a second Baptism, which washed away every stain, and that the soul of the martyr was secure in immediate admission to the perfect happiness of heaven.
        The point in the third paragraph can be partially conceded. Yes it is true that even the martyrdom of the water-baptized is also spoken of frequently in the Fathers as being a "baptism," albeit a second one, and this is in the sense that one's sins up to that point are utterly canceled, not only forgiven but even all punishment for them abolished as well. But this is only a partial concession, for when this happens it is most properly (and commonly) regarded and described as a "second" baptism, not a repeat of the Sacrament itself (for that would be sacrilege) but of its utter sin-cleansing quality and result.

        When Tertullian wrote of Baptism, and specifically his chapter on the Baptism of Blood, he mentioned the possibility of such a martyrdom serving as both an original baptism (for such souls as have not had an opportunity to be water-baptized) and as a "second" baptism for those who are already baptized in water. Let's take a look at his full chapter as this has direct bearing on this question:

    Tertullian, On Baptism, Chapter XVI - Of the Second Baptism - With Blood (157-164): We have indeed, likewise, a second font, (itself withal one with the former), of blood, to wit; concerning which the Lord said, "I have to be baptized with a baptism," when He had been baptized already. For He had come "by means of water and blood," just as John has written; that He might be baptized by the water, glorified by the blood; to make us, in like manner, called by water, chosen by blood. These two baptisms He sent out from the wound in His pierced side, in order that they who believed in His blood might be bathed with the water; they who had been bathed in the water might likewise drink the blood. This is the baptism which both stands in lieu of the fontal bathing when that has not been received, and restores it when lost.
        So, while this does establish that martyrdom can serve as a "second baptism," such that indeed not every reference to a saint's being "baptized in his own blood" need refer to an instance of Baptism of Blood, it also equally establishes that in other instances (e. g. those saints described above) in which the phrase "baptized in his own blood" most certainly does refer to that saint's Baptism of Blood, which is plainly stated here as something taken for granted.

        And while we are on this ancient quote from Tertullian (one of the very oldest that explicitly mentions Baptism of Blood, not including the Biblical teaching that "Whosever loses his life for My sake shall find it"), what did the Treatise do with this? It is pointed out that elsewhere in the same document on baptism, Tertullian managed to make a mistake. Let us see first how the Treatise addresses this mistake:

    But guess what? In the same work in which Tertullian expresses his opinion in favor of baptism of blood, he also makes a different and significant error. He says that infants should not be baptized until they are grown up!
    Tertullian, On Baptism, 203 A.D.: "According to circumstance and disposition and even age of the individual person, it may be better to delay baptism; and especially so in the case of little children…Let them come, then, while they grow up…"
    This contradicts the universal Catholic Tradition, received from the Apostles, and the later infallible teaching of the popes, that infants should be baptized as soon as possible.
        And yes it is true that in Chapter 18 he does advise (but does not teach as a doctrine, as he does Baptism of Blood) that the baptism of children ought to be deferred. The reasons he gives are both spiritual and practical. The spiritual reason given is that he did not want the Sacrament to be disgraced with the behavior of those who, for example were baptized as infants, but who then grow up into having an evil disposition. The practical reason he gives relates to increasing the probability of the infant living to be old enough to make his own decision for baptism (if he is willing to live it worthily). The short excerpt from Tertullian in the Treatise quote makes it sound like he is advocating that only adults be baptized ("Let them come … they grow up"), though if you look closely you will see that, even as given in the Treatise, the crucial phrase is not "when they grow up" but "while they grow up," that is to say, while still young, but old enough to decide things for themselves. The actual quote reads thus:

    Tertullian, On Baptism, Chapter XVIII - Of the Persons to Whom, and the Time When, Baptism is to Be Administered (180-195): But they whose office it is, know that baptism is not rashly to be administered. "Give to every one who begs of thee,"? has a reference of its own, appertaining especially to almsgiving. On the contrary, this precept is rather to be looked at carefully: "Give not the holy thing to the dogs, nor cast your pearls before swine;" and, "Lay not hands easily on any; share not other men's sins." If Philip so "easily" baptized the chamberlain, let us reflect that a manifest and conspicuous evidence that the Lord deemed him worthy had been interposed. The Spirit had enjoined Philip to proceed to that road: the eunuch himself, too, was not found idle, nor as one who was suddenly seized with an eager desire to be baptized; but, after going up to the temple for prayer's sake, being intently engaged on the divine Scripture, was thus suitably discovered - to whom God had, unasked, sent an apostle, which one, again, the Spirit bade adjoin himself to the chamberlain's chariot.
       The Scripture which he was reading falls in opportunely with his faith: Philip, being requested, is taken to sit beside him; the Lord is pointed out; faith lingers not; water needs no waiting for; the work is completed, and the apostle snatched away. "But Paul too was, in fact, 'speedily' baptized: "for Simon, his host, speedily recognized him to be "an appointed vessel of election." God's approbation sends sure premonitory tokens before it; every "petition" may both deceive and be deceived.

       And so, according to the circumstances and disposition, and even age, of each individual, the delay of baptism is preferable; principally, however, in the case of little children. For why is it necessary - if (baptism itself) is not so necessary - that the sponsors likewise should be thrust into danger? Who both themselves, by reason of mortality, may fail to fulfill their promises, and may be disappointed by the development of an evil disposition, in those for whom they stood? The Lord does indeed say, "Forbid them not to come unto me." Let them "come," then, while they are growing up; let them "come" while they are learning, while they are learning whither to come; let them become Christians when they have become able to know Christ. Why does the innocent period of life hasten to the "remission of sins? "More caution will be exercised in worldly matters: so that one who is not trusted with earthly substance is trusted with divine! Let them know how to "ask" for salvation, that you may seem (at least) to have given "to him that asks." For no less cause must the unwedded also be deferred - in whom the ground of temptation is prepared, alike in such as never were wedded by means of their maturity, and in the widowed by means of their freedom - until they either marry, or else be more fully strengthened for continence. If any understand the weighty import of baptism, they will fear its reception more than its delay: sound faith is secure of salvation.

        So while Tertullian's advice turns out to be wrong, one also sees how it is not any sort of a doctrinal stand but merely a pragmatic one, a "pastoral" one, so to speak, and with such a seeming validity to it as to make even a saint capable of believing it, before the Church had ruled on the question. It is important to note that the Church does not follow him in this, exactly in the way that the Church does not follow Cyprian in believing that all heretical baptisms are sacramentally invalid, and does not follow St. Augustine in believing that unbaptized infants suffer pain of sense in Hell, and does not follow St. Thomas Aquinas in believing that the flesh of our Lady was conceived in sin. What is undeniable is that the Church most certainly does follow Tertullian in its teaching of Baptism of Blood. For in the mistakes of the saintly writers, nearly every one of them is nearly all alone in making their particular mistake. As we will see below, Tertullian is in no way anywhere near alone in believing in Baptism of Blood, even among the ancients, let alone the Doctors, Popes, and Councils already quoted in previous installments of this series.

        At this point however, one other thing comes up. The claim is made in the Treatise that all of those ancients (or Doctors, or whoever is proving "inconvenient" to their denials of BOB and BOD) make admitted mistakes in some other place (whether in the same document or elsewhere), as if that is supposed to discredit the clear consensus among all, including some who didn't make any mistakes. This little claim keeps coming up again and again in the Treatise like some sort of leitmotif, every time some Father, Saint, Doctor, Theologian, or Pope says anything in favor of BOB and/or BOD. As if that is supposed to mean anything! There are two problems with trying to discredit all these crucial Church figures with this leitmotif.

        The first is that while each (or most anyway) do actually make some other mistake elsewhere in all their writings, what such mistakes they made are not shared, whereas their belief in BOB and/or BOD is shared by all. If Tertullian and St. Cyprian and others of the Ancient Fathers were wrong to believe in Baptism of Blood (along with all the Saints, Doctors, and Popes), then amazingly they all managed to make the same exact mistake.

        The other thing to consider is the fact that such saints making mistakes is by no means unique to those whose writings are a thorn in the spirit to those who deny BOB and BOD. In point of fact it is probably impossible (or at least extraordinarily difficult) to find even so much as one single saint who has absolutely never made so much as one mistake in all of their writings (assuming they left any significant body of writings in the first place). So the bare ability to find mistakes elsewhere in the writings of the Ancient Fathers, Doctors, Theologians, Popes, and so forth proves categorically nothing at all.

        Most amazingly of all, Tertullian has even managed to weigh in on almost this exact issue of whether the Church or its saints could make mistakes, and what real mistakes would look like where actually made, versus what that consensus of the Ancient Fathers would look like where present and having doctrinal force:

    Tertullian, The Prescription Against Heretics, Chapter XXVIII - The One Tradition of the Faith, Which is Substantially Alike in the Churches Everywhere, a Good Proof that the Transmission Has Been True and Honest in the Main (296-300): Grant, then, that all have erred; that the apostle was mistaken in giving his testimony; that the Holy Ghost had no such respect to any one (church) as to lead it into truth, although sent with this view by Christ, and for this asked of the Father that He might be the teacher of truth; grant, also, that He, the Steward of God, the Vicar of Christ, neglected His office, permitting the churches for a time to understand differently, (and) to believe differently, what He Himself was preaching by the apostles - is it likely that so many churches, and they so great, should have gone astray into one and the same faith? No casualty distributed among many men issues in one and the same result. Error of doctrine in the churches must necessarily have produced various issues. When, however, that which is deposited among many is found to be one and the same, it is not the result of error, but of tradition. Can any one, then, be reckless enough to say that they were in error who handed on the tradition?
        What Tertullian has to say about how all the churches (particular congregations of the Church in particular districts) all going "astray into the one and the same faith" and so forth equally applies to the great Fathers, Doctors, Saints, Theologians, and Popes of the Church. If all were mistaken, then they would be claiming all different things. And as we see, where each does err as an individual, their error is not shared with many, or (in most cases) with any at all. But where they have all supposedly "erred" in the exact same direction, namely in all unanimously teaching Baptism of Blood and Desire, this has the character, not of error, but of Tradition.

        It is even more serious than that. Does not Peter Dimond know that in claiming that all of these holy writers in the Church have erred in teaching BOB and BOD, even while admitting their orthodoxy in all (or most) other things, is this not like the accusation properly made of the Modernists? For on one page (many pages in fact), Tertullian, Cyprian, Ambrose, Augustine, Bernard, Aquinas, Pope Innocent III, and so on, all write things which the Dimonds opine to be Catholic (and they are Catholic) while on the next they openly advocate belief in Baptism of Blood and/or Desire , which they deny being Catholic. Recall what the Pope (St. Pius X) wrote:

    Pope Pius X, Pascendi Dominici Gregis, paragraph 18, The Methods of Modernists: In their writings and addresses they seem not infrequently to advocate doctrines which are contrary one to the other, so that one would be disposed to regard their attitude as double and doubtful. But this is done deliberately and advisedly, and the reason of it is to be found in their opinion as to the mutual separation of science and faith. Thus in their books one finds some things which might well be approved by a Catholic, but on turning over the page one is confronted by other things which might well have been dictated by a rationalist.
        Are we to believe that all the saints of the Church have been Modernist heretics? I fail to see what other accusation could possibly be derived from their leitmotif. And in the spirit of such supposed "doublemindedness" the Treatise goes on to quote Tertullian in support of its denials of BOB and BOD as if the ancient Father couldn't make up his mind, and also as if he hadn't been discredited on account of his plain and quite explicit teaching of BOB. And once again the quote is out of context, as it appears thus in the Treatise:

    Tertullian actually affirms the universal teaching of Tradition on the absolute necessity of water baptism, contrary to the idea of baptism of blood.
    Tertullian, On Baptism, 203: "… it is in fact prescribed that no one can attain to salvation without Baptism, especially in view of that declaration of the Lord, who says: 'Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life [John 3:5]…"
        Now let's look at the actual quote:

    Tertullian, On Baptism, Chapter XII - Of the Necessity of Baptism to Salvation (180-195): When, however, the prescript is laid down that "without baptism, salvation is attainable by none" (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, "Unless one be born of water, he hath not life"), there arise immediately scrupulous, nay rather audacious, doubts on the part of some, "how, in accordance with that prescript, salvation is attainable by the apostles, whom - Paul excepted - we do not find baptized in the Lord? Nay, since Paul is the only one of them who has put on the garment of Christ's baptism, either the peril of all the others who lack the water of Christ is prejudged, that the prescript may be maintained, or else the prescript is rescinded if salvation has been ordained even for the unbaptized." I have heard - the Lord is my witness - doubts of that kind: that none may imagine me so abandoned as to ex-cogitate, unprovoked, in the license of my pen, ideas which would inspire others with scruple.
        The chapter continues with a discussion of the questions as to whether the original 12 Apostles were ever actually baptized. But as one can see, the prescript being quoted is not so much being affirmed as being discussed, particularly with regards to certain scrupulous (or should we say audacious?) persons who had noted that Scripture does not record when the Apostles were baptized. Even more interesting is that Tertullian concludes this chapter with at least the faint possibility that even if the Apostles were not baptized they would indisputably be saved:

    Tertullian, On Baptism, Chapter XII - Of the Necessity of Baptism to Salvation (126-135): Now, whether they [the Apostles] were baptized in any manner whatever, or whether they continued unbathed to the end - so that even that saying of the Lord touching the "one bath" does, under the person of Peter, merely regard us - still, to determine concerning the salvation of the apostles is audacious enough, because on them the prerogative even of first choice, and thereafter of undivided intimacy, might be able to confer the compendious grace of baptism, seeing they (I think) followed Him who was wont to promise salvation to every believer. "Thy faith," He would say, "hath saved thee;" and, "Thy sins shall be remitted thee," on thy believing, of course, albeit
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #1 on: March 21, 2014, 12:27:32 PM »
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  • So many words just to say, "I do not believe that there is no salvation outside the Church".

    What a waste of space.


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #2 on: March 21, 2014, 12:48:32 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    So many words just to say, "I do not believe that there is no salvation outside the Church".

    What a waste of space.


    Please read carefully and you might become Catholic.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    « Reply #3 on: March 21, 2014, 01:02:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    So many words just to say, "I do not believe that there is no salvation outside the Church".

    What a waste of space.


    Again, your comments are rude and condescending.
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline bowler

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    « Reply #4 on: March 21, 2014, 01:12:38 PM »
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  • An article about baptism of blood from people who believe that anyone can be saved who has not explicit desire to be baptized, or martyred, or Catholic , nor belief in the Incarantion and the Trinity. The BODers talk about BOD & BOB of the catechumen, two innocuous theories, but they don't even believe that they are necessary for salvation!


    The truth is that you BODers are teaching something which is opposed to ALL the Fathers, Doctors, Saints, Councils, and the Athanasian Creed, your counterfeit BOD teaching that someone can be saved who has no explicit belief in Christ and the Trinity, which is the antithesis of desire.

    The fact that I have to write explicit  when saying baptism of desire and belief in Christ, and I have to say  sacrament when saying baptism, and baptized member, shows just show how warped your minds have become that you use implicit desire for baptism, implicit belief in Christ, implicitly Catholics, invisible membership and so on... Language, hence clear dogmas, have absolutely no meaning to you people.

    For the truth is that you BODers ALL teach and believe that there is salvation for those who objectively lived believing that they were Jews, Protestants, Hindus, pagans etc., and who objectively died not explicitly desiring to be Catholics. If that is not at least "implicitly" saying that Baptism is optional, and one can be saved in any religion, then real life and words have no meaning.



    Offline bowler

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    « Reply #5 on: March 21, 2014, 01:14:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
    ON PROMOTION OF FALSE DOCTRINES
    QUANTO CONFICIAMUR


    That encyclical has nothing to do with the discussion, your posting it shows that you have no evidence, your frustration. That is called an end run, and circular logic. You don't like what someone posts, so you call it a false doctrine by your own cojones, then post QUANTO CONFICIAMUR.

    It's obvious to anyone who is honest about this subject of BOD,  that the subject of this tread is that to be saved by baptism of desire, one must have explicit belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity. ALL of you BODers are denying that. You are denying clear dogma.


    The Subject of this Thread: BODers say anyone can be saved witout explicit belief in Christ


    DOGMA:

     
    Quote
    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity... Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. “But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God is God and man...– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”


    If that dogma does not mean what it CLEARLY says, then words have no meaning whatsoever. It is a waste of time to talk to people like you, for you have no regard for dogma. Moreover, it does not phase you one iota that not a Father, Saint, Doctor, or Council ever taught that anyone can be saved without belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity.

    If you will not hear clear dogma from the Holy Ghost, no one and nothing will convince you that you are wrong. Be prepared though that if this clear dogma does not mean what it clearly says, then NOTHING that is written means what it says! And you might as well go talk to yourself.




    BODers deny Dogma (Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8)

    BODers deny Creeds

     Athanasian Creed
    1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;
    2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
    3. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
    4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
    5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
    6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
    7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
    8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
    9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
    10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
    11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
    12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
    13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
    14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
    15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
    16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
    17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
    18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
    19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
    20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
    21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
    22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
    23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
    24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
    25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
    26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
    27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
    28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
    29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
    31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
    32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
    33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
    34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
    35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
    36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
    37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
    38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
    39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
    40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
    41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
    42. and shall give account of their own works.
    43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
    44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

    BODers deny St. Thomas Aquinas:

    St. Thomas, Summa Theologica: "After grace had been revealed both the learned and simple folk are bound to explicit faith in the mysteries of Christ chiefly as regards those which are observed throughout the Church, and publicly proclaimed, such as the articles which refer to the Incarnation, of which we have spoken above."(Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.7.)

    Saint Thomas, Summa Theologica: "And consequently, when once grace had been revealed, all were bound to explicit faith in the mystery of the Trinity." (Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.8.)





    Offline glaston

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    « Reply #6 on: March 21, 2014, 02:05:08 PM »
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  •  St. Patrick was born in the late Fourth Century. His Father was Calpurnius, a Briton and a Deacon; his mother, Concess, was a Frank and a close relative of St. Martin of Tours. At sixteen years of age, St. Patrick and many others were kidnapped from the family estate near Bannavem Taburniae (some say this was in western Britain, others say it was in Brittany) by the seven vengeful exiled sons of a king of the Britons. This happened after Rome required that all Briton soldiers under Roman authority go to Rome to defend that city from barbarians, leaving Britain without any army or police, as recorded by St. Bede. Many acts of violence and greed were recorded at that time, which St. Bede called a terrible shame in Britain, which had been Christian a long time.

    St. Patrick's father was killed; his sister disappeared.

    St. Patrick was sold into slavery in Ireland. His life turned from youthful simplicity into a lesson for all of us. He was a slave, but obeyed his master. He would not depart until given leave to do so.

    St. Patrick's escape from slavery was accomplished with miracles. He was visited in a dream by an angel in the form of a bird, Victor, the conqueror, who arranged a miraculous escape. Patrick said that he needed his master's permission to go home, but his master required a ransom of gold as large as his head. The angel told Patrick to follow a boar. The boar's rooting turned up the gold which was to ransom him. The angel took him to the seacoast sixty miles in one day to meet a ship, but instead the lord of the port sold Patrick to others. Then the fee, a set of brazen cauldrons, tormented the betrayer and his family. When they were admiring the cauldrons, their hands stuck to the metal. The lord of the port repented, was forgiven by Patrick. He converted to the will of God, ransomed Patrick from the slavers, and sent Patrick home. He was baptized by Patrick later, when St. Patrick returned. St. Patrick had been a slave six years.

    Patrick had a dream that he must preach the Gospel to the Irish, but Victor had told him to seek an education first. He found his education under St. Germanus of Auxerre, who lived close to the southern part of Gaul which is next to the Mediterranean sea. (St. Fiacc does not record other miracles. The town of St. Patrice near Tours in France claims that it was visited by St. Patrick in midwinter. He was tired and cold, and the frost-covered thorn tree he slept under burst into soft warm blooms above him. In December every year until the tree was destroyed the "flowers of St. Patrick" bloomed there. French archaeological and agriculture societies testified to the truth of this phenomenon into this century.)

    St. Germanus took his pupil to Britain to save that country from the errors of Pelagius. (The error of Pelagius was a belief that we may attain salvation through our own efforts without God's help, as if the image of God in us were completely separated from the help of the Holy Spirit, the grace of the living God. This heresy is seen today in mistaking the Holy Spirit for the whims or emotions of the mob; "zeitgeist" instead of Holy Spirit.) St. Fiacc records the work of St. Patrick in Britain under St. Germanus to show the development of his saintly leadership, but St. Patrick, in his Confessio, does not mention this, perhaps because the focus of his life's work was in Ireland.

    St. Germanus, with a group of priests that included St. Patrick, travelled through Britain convincing people to turn to God, throwing out the false priests of Pelagius known as snakes.


    ============================================
    Tapping me knowledge banks the mention of "seven vengeful exiled sons + Western Britain + Brittany" - is fascinating!

    The Romans shipped a British tribe from their lands to Brittany!
    Over 6,000 people from a territory which covered SOUTH WALES + Wiltshire + Somerset(Glastonbury) + Dorset etc
    These became the 'Bretons' who to this day have never mixed with the Gaul and are fiercely independent (it all fits in)

    Some Breton ex-pats reinvaded Britain nearly a thousand years later with the Normans (Normans were all of old viking stock who settled in Normandy - nothing to do with the Gauls = the Viking viciousness, plundering and cruelty that manifested during Norman conquest)

    "false priests of Pelagius - known as snakes."
     Patrick rid Ireland of the Snakes!

    St. Germanus took his pupil to Britain to save that country from the errors of Pelagius. (The error of Pelagius was a belief that we may attain salvation through our own efforts without God's help, as if the image of God in us were completely separated from the help of the Holy Spirit, the grace of the living God. This heresy is seen today in mistaking the Holy Spirit for the whims or emotions of the mob; "zeitgeist" instead of Holy Spirit.)

    http://celticchristianity.org/library/patrick.html

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #7 on: March 21, 2014, 03:57:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    So many words just to say, "I do not believe that there is no salvation outside the Church".

    What a waste of space.


    Again, your comments are rude and condescending.


    The truth hurts to those who want no part of it.

    All LoT accomplished was to make yet another post rejecting that any sacrament is necessary - and as usual, he took 67 paragraphs to do it.

    God forbid he start a post and champion the defense of the necessity of the sacraments. That would be the Catholic thing to do - - do you agree?


    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis


    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    « Reply #8 on: March 21, 2014, 04:40:57 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    So many words just to say, "I do not believe that there is no salvation outside the Church".

    What a waste of space.


    Again, your comments are rude and condescending.




    The truth hurts to those who want no part of it.


    It is not charitable, and it is not kind.  The action divides, rather than gathers.  It demonstrates arrogance and pride.  What part of brotherly love eludes the self-proclaimed champion of truth?

    Quote from: Stubborn

    God forbid he start a post and champion the defense of the necessity of the sacraments. That would be the Catholic thing to do - - do you agree?


    Is this another snare?  Have you scripted your trap?  What is your purpose in this?

    My answer is as follows...
    http://www.franciscan-archive.org/scotus/opera/Monte-ST3-61.pdf
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #9 on: March 21, 2014, 05:29:36 PM »
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  • Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    So many words just to say, "I do not believe that there is no salvation outside the Church".

    What a waste of space.


    Again, your comments are rude and condescending.




    The truth hurts to those who want no part of it.


    It is not charitable, and it is not kind.  The action divides, rather than gathers.  It demonstrates arrogance and pride.  What part of brotherly love eludes the self-proclaimed champion of truth?


    The truth of salvation is always charitable, you will not accept the truth so therefore you claim it hurtful. Same thing the homos claim when told they are sodomites on their way to hell.





    Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
    Quote from: Stubborn

    God forbid he start a post and champion the defense of the necessity of the sacraments. That would be the Catholic thing to do - - do you agree?


    Is this another snare?  Have you scripted your trap?  What is your purpose in this?

    My answer is as follows...
    http://www.franciscan-archive.org/scotus/opera/Monte-ST3-61.pdf



    So is that a "yes, I agree" or a "no, I disagree".

     

    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

    Offline Cantarella

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    « Reply #10 on: March 21, 2014, 05:49:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn

    The truth hurts to those who want no part of it.



    The majority is always on the side of that which is most comfortable to live with, and therefore against Christ's law.

    As St Augustine says: " People hate the truth when for the sake of whatever it is they love more than the truth. They love truth when it shines warmly on them, and they hate it when it rebukes them".

    "Brotherly love" in expense of purity of Faith is the evil of our day. It is the basis of Ecumenism and Universal Salvation and One world religion, not based upon the one True Faith but upon a common global error. Love for neighbor has replaced Love for God. Love of neighbor alone put the emphasis on earthly things, not the supernatural life of grace. The same unclean spirit of Vatican II.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #11 on: March 21, 2014, 08:59:24 PM »
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  • Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
    It demonstrates arrogance and pride.  What part of brotherly love eludes the self-proclaimed champion of truth?


    No, it demonstrates deep frustration at seeing the dogma EENS turned into the dogma of the opposite of EENS (like a Satanic inversion of the Crucifix).  It demonstrates deep frustration at evil being called good and good evil.  And, yes, it has at times gotten the better of me.  I apologize for when I have crossed the line.

    Yet I find that you are quite selective in your admonitions.  Where were you the two or three hundred times (and counting) that SJB called people "idiots"?  I invite you to denounce the "arrogance and pride" of SJB.  If you do not, then I stand by my charge of insincerity on your parts.


    Offline bowler

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    « Reply #12 on: March 21, 2014, 09:47:36 PM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    You know, at the end of the day, we'll have to just wait for the Holy Pope that God will send to restore the Church.  So many have been so deeply poisoned by the modernism that there can be no other remedy.

    I pray for that Pope whom God will raise up to reaffirm the dogma EENS and to condemn at least the distorted version of BoD (aka FoD).  I long for the day when everyone will return to the Faith of the Fathers.

    Will there be any faith left when Our Lord returns?

    In the meantime, I am indeed consoled by those of you I have encountered here who still cling to that Faith.


    Thanks, that is why we are here, to speak truth.

    As for me, I was surprised that these BODers like Ambrose, SJB, LOT, and Anthonywhatever, Nishant and such, when confronted with the challenge of defending the theory of salvation by implicit faith in Christ (the teaching that someone who has no explicit belief in Christ and the Trinity can be saved) isolated by itself, still fight the same as if we were talking about BOD & BOB of the catechumen. I really did not believe they were that far gone. I expected that when they were presented with the fact that it was taught by no Father, Doctor, Saint, council, and that moreover that it is a declared dogma (and in the ancient Athanasian creed) that for one to be saved one must believe in the Incarnation and the Trinity, I really expected them to change their ways, however, I can see now that they are lost. Indeed BOD & BOB must be like a drug, in that it ends in sheer lunacy, denying clear dogma, and abandoning all common sense, the Fathers, Doctors, Saints and councils!

    Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
    ON PROMOTION OF FALSE DOCTRINES
    QUANTO CONFICIAMUR


    That encyclical has nothing to do with the discussion, your posting it shows that you have no evidence, your frustration. That is called an end run, and circular logic. You don't like what someone posts, so you call it a false doctrine by your own cojones, then post QUANTO CONFICIAMUR.

    It's obvious to anyone who is honest about this subject of BOD,  that the subject of this tread is that to be saved by baptism of desire, one must have explicit belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity. ALL of you BODers are denying that. You are denying clear dogma.


    The Subject of this Thread: BODers say anyone can be saved without explicit belief in Christ


    DOGMA:

     
    Quote
    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity... Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. “But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God is God and man...– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”


    If that dogma does not mean what it CLEARLY says, then words have no meaning whatsoever. It is a waste of time to talk to people like you, for you have no regard for dogma. Moreover, it does not phase you one iota that not a Father, Saint, Doctor, or Council ever taught that anyone can be saved without belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity.

    If you will not hear clear dogma from the Holy Ghost, no one and nothing will convince you that you are wrong. Be prepared though that if this clear dogma does not mean what it clearly says, then NOTHING that is written means what it says! And you might as well go talk to yourself.




    BODers deny Dogma (Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8)

    BODers deny Creeds

     Athanasian Creed
    1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;
    2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
    3. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
    4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
    5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
    6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
    7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
    8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
    9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
    10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
    11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
    12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
    13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
    14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
    15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
    16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
    17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
    18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
    19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
    20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
    21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
    22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
    23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
    24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
    25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
    26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
    27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
    28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
    29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
    31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
    32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
    33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
    34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
    35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
    36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
    37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
    38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
    39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
    40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
    41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
    42. and shall give account of their own works.
    43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
    44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

    BODers deny St. Thomas Aquinas:

    St. Thomas, Summa Theologica: "After grace had been revealed both the learned and simple folk are bound to explicit faith in the mysteries of Christ chiefly as regards those which are observed throughout the Church, and publicly proclaimed, such as the articles which refer to the Incarnation, of which we have spoken above."(Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.7.)

    Saint Thomas, Summa Theologica: "And consequently, when once grace had been revealed, all were bound to explicit faith in the mystery of the Trinity." (Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.8.)





    Offline Ambrose

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    « Reply #13 on: March 22, 2014, 12:00:46 AM »
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  • Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    So many words just to say, "I do not believe that there is no salvation outside the Church".

    What a waste of space.


    Again, your comments are rude and condescending.




    The truth hurts to those who want no part of it.


    It is not charitable, and it is not kind.  The action divides, rather than gathers.  It demonstrates arrogance and pride.  What part of brotherly love eludes the self-proclaimed champion of truth?

    Quote from: Stubborn

    God forbid he start a post and champion the defense of the necessity of the sacraments. That would be the Catholic thing to do - - do you agree?


    Is this another snare?  Have you scripted your trap?  What is your purpose in this?

    My answer is as follows...
    http://www.franciscan-archive.org/scotus/opera/Monte-ST3-61.pdf


    Have you ever wondered at the insults Fr. Tetzel suffered from the heretics, how they heckled him, misrepresented him, and twisted the true Faith.  

    I see the same traits in the Dimonds and their followers and their attitudes towards those who stand up for the Catholic Faith against them.   They mock us for believing and trusting the Church's own Doctors, theologians, catechisms, and Canon Law, while they twist primary sources to favor their heretical and erroneous teachings.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #14 on: March 22, 2014, 03:49:21 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    So many words just to say, "I do not believe that there is no salvation outside the Church".

    What a waste of space.


    Again, your comments are rude and condescending.




    The truth hurts to those who want no part of it.


    It is not charitable, and it is not kind.  The action divides, rather than gathers.  It demonstrates arrogance and pride.  What part of brotherly love eludes the self-proclaimed champion of truth?

    Quote from: Stubborn

    God forbid he start a post and champion the defense of the necessity of the sacraments. That would be the Catholic thing to do - - do you agree?


    Is this another snare?  Have you scripted your trap?  What is your purpose in this?

    My answer is as follows...
    http://www.franciscan-archive.org/scotus/opera/Monte-ST3-61.pdf


    Have you ever wondered at the insults Fr. Tetzel suffered from the heretics, how they heckled him, misrepresented him, and twisted the true Faith.  

    I see the same traits in the Dimonds and their followers and their attitudes towards those who stand up for the Catholic Faith against them.   They mock us for believing and trusting the Church's own Doctors, theologians, catechisms, and Canon Law, while they twist primary sources to favor their heretical and erroneous teachings.


    You take being corrected as being mocked, this is because you have too much pride and reject infallible teachings.

    We give you ex cathedra teachings, which are of the highest authority possible, you argue that authority with text books - which is not only no argument at all, it is actually arguing against dogma.

    Remember the words of St. ALphonsus which you yourself posted - "only heretics say that no sacrament at all is necessary".

    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

     

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