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Author Topic: Bishop Williamson on Sedevacantism  (Read 3602 times)

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Offline Vladimir

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Bishop Williamson on Sedevacantism
« on: October 27, 2009, 09:38:15 AM »
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  • Offline Vladimir

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    Bishop Williamson on Sedevacantism
    « Reply #1 on: October 27, 2009, 09:38:56 AM »
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  • Offline Vladimir

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    Bishop Williamson on Sedevacantism
    « Reply #2 on: October 27, 2009, 09:39:36 AM »
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  • Offline Elizabeth

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    Bishop Williamson on Sedevacantism
    « Reply #3 on: October 27, 2009, 04:04:46 PM »
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  • I can't tell when these were written.  Is +Williamson coming to the US this Spring?

    Offline Vladimir

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    Bishop Williamson on Sedevacantism
    « Reply #4 on: October 27, 2009, 11:34:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: Elizabeth
    I can't tell when these were written.  Is +Williamson coming to the US this Spring?


    No, these are all several years old.




    Offline CM

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    Bishop Williamson on Sedevacantism
    « Reply #5 on: October 28, 2009, 01:10:26 AM »
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  • And you believe this malarkey?

    Paul VI and John Paul II "hereticized" day and night, but they never knew that they were in opposition to dogmas?  They were material heretics and therefore were able to retain office and the submission of Catholics, who can neither do what they say nor what they do?

    How long was John Paul II 'pope'?  Huh?  And nobody ever once managed to say to him "You know, your Holiness, these last 5 encyclicals of yours contain all kinds of heresy."

    And if he just brushed them off and said "Oh you're just jealous that I'm the pope and you're not", and truly believed it, then he still can't be called a formal heretic, right?  I mean after all he never really saw the argument, it was never proposed to him with enough clarity, so he's completely off the hook and we should just go on following him.  Because even though the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church, they can prevail against the HEAD of the Church, and spread to the members who will come to believe the same heresies, excuse the same practices and even engage in and teach them themselves.

    But just because the gates of hell have prevailed against the head of the Church and have spread to the members of the Church doesn't mean that they have prevailed against the Church.

    Orwellian double think 101 for sedeplenists?

    Offline CM

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    Bishop Williamson on Sedevacantism
    « Reply #6 on: October 28, 2009, 01:11:36 AM »
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  • Hahaha!

    That ### is supposed to say sede-plenists.

    Offline Raoul76

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    Bishop Williamson on Sedevacantism
    « Reply #7 on: October 28, 2009, 01:16:28 AM »
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  • Quote
    The Liberals' softness on people extends to softness on principles; the sedevacantists' hardness on principles makes them go hard on people.


    How are sedevacantists "hard" on people?  How is saying a man is not the Pope based on his formal heresy -- and it is formal -- uncharitable or harder than saying he is the Pope but rejecting everything he does or says?  

    There is no logic to what the SSPX says; this is emotion-based reasoning, and it is only the confidence and assured authority with which it is said that makes it convincing.  There is nothing intrinsically "nicer" or more charitable about SSPX than sedevacantism; these are simply theological stances.  

    It might be helpful to see Ratzinger less as a Pope and more as a heresiarch.  Then you will see why the una cuм is unacceptable.  It's not only a matter of determining who is or who is not Pope.  It's a matter of honoring God by not calling a notorious, massively destructive heresiarch "famulo tuo" in the Canon of His Mass.

    Why, for the SSPX, does loving those who are erring mean to SHARE in their errors?  He is mangling Augustine.  We don't want to offend the Vatican II laity by rejecting their heresiarch so we are going to call him Pope?  What kind of imaginary community does Bishop Williamson think exists between Vatican II Catholics and SSPX Catholics?  Does he think that they get on their knees and thank SSPX-ers every day for being more considerate than sedevacantists?  Doesn't Bishop Williamson know that most Novus Ordo types think that SSPX-ers are schismatic fanatics anyway?  

    Constantly, with the SSPX, the theme is pushed that sedevacantists are cruel and they, steering the middle course, are "moderate" and considerate.  It is not the reasoning of the argument that convinces, because it is flimsier than a wet toilet-paper roll, but the hypnotic repetition of it.  They try to make it seem like deciding a man is not Pope is some kind of violent, revolutionary, Protestant action, when it is simple common sense.  How can a man be the head of a Church to which he doesn't even belong?  And how can the body of this Church follow a head teaching another doctrine than the one they profess to hold?

    Like a Hollywood movie the idea of SSPX as the "nice guys" appeals to a vague sense of the warm fuzzies.  Imagine a movie that ends with a black kid and white kid riding off together into the sunset on their bicycles after surviving various dangers together.  Applauding this flatters you and makes you feel like a good and nice person, not like one of those RACISTS -- but if you really analyze it in depth, there's nothing there, it's empty.  And who and where are these villainous racists anyway?  

    Likewise what Bishop Williamson is saying, when you analyze it, just like when you analyze a sentimental Spielberg movie, all falls apart.  It's all based on painting sedevacantists as extremists, which brings those in SSPX together as good, sensible people who are against imaginary extremism, just like all those watching the movie described above are all brought together into an imaginary bond against imaginary racists.  

    You're dealing with a former screenwriter and Machiavellian plotter here.  I know manipulation.  I know it from the inside-out, like a Swiss watchmaker knows what makes a watch tick.  I don't say I have many talents but that is one that I'd be falsely humble to deny.

    *

    Unfortunately, reading this, I can see why Matthew thinks the way he does.  It shows when he suspected me of pride the other day.  The implication, as always, is that sedes are haughty vigilantes who take the law into their own hands, while those in SSPX are meek and obedient and patient, waiting for God to resolve the problem.    

    But there are several types of pride:  The pride Matthew accuses me of might be an intellectual pride, pride in my writing style, something like that.  If I do have pride, that's what it is and that's what I have to work on.  I do not have righteous religious pride though.  That would be ridiculous for someone with my background.  

    Whatever the case, it is usually arrogant righteousness that we consider pride.  But there is also the kind of pride that flatters itself on its humility.
     This is arrogant righteousness in a more insidious form.

    People who suffer from this second kind of pride may see simple truth-tellers as arrogant jerks, because the truth, which they don't want to hear, would wrench them out of their dreamworld.  It is this "wrenching" -- really an awakening -- that they associate with violence and extremism.  They fear it so much that it leads to exactly what you see here, the accusations of going too far, of being extreme, just as Jesus was seen as being very extreme in His time when all He did was tell the truth.  Yet for most it was far too much to bear; it was a light that was too bright being shined into their comfortably dark hidey-holes.  They accused Him of pride when THEY were the ones who were too proud to accept His wisdom.

    I'm not saying this is true of you, Matthew ( nor am I comparing myself to Jesus, of course! )  You don't strike me as being afraid of the truth at all.  But you do strike me as taking this approach of Bishop Williamson that you have found the via media, the tolerant, charitable, happy medium that sets you apart from rigid, frothing, maniacal sedes, and that in a subconscious way you pride yourself on it because you have been subliminally taught to pride yourself on it.  

    You have shown that you can recognize fallacious logic when it is used by Rawhide.  Why do you fall for it from Bishop Williamson?  Is it because he tells much of the truth about cօռspιʀαcιҽs and Jєωs, because telling 90% of the truth to sell one big lie is another effective hypnotic technique.  

    It's not about how people SEEM, or how they are made to seem, but what they SAY.  Forget about appearances and follow the doctrine and you can't go wrong.  If you're a jury member are you going to believe one lawyer because he seems nicer than the other, walks with a cane and acts handicapped to win your sympathy, or are you going to believe the one whose proof is the most convincing?
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.


    Offline Belloc

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    Bishop Williamson on Sedevacantism
    « Reply #8 on: October 29, 2009, 11:54:35 AM »
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  • Quote from: Catholic Martyr
    And you believe this malarkey?


    yes, we beleive in the validly consecrated Bishop Williamson, so too does Chant (see his prayer for Williamson comments bottom of page)

    is he the cleric that needs converting to electas Pope you noted in another thread????
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Belloc

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    Bishop Williamson on Sedevacantism
    « Reply #9 on: October 29, 2009, 11:56:13 AM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    There is no logic to what the SSPX says; this is emotion-based reasoning, and it is only the confidence and assured authority with which it is said that makes it convincing.  


    lawful authority you reject and claim to be Catholic......btw, noting a highly educated man like Williamson is emoting is  :roll-laugh1: :roll-laugh2: :roll-laugh2:   coming from you..
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline TheD

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    Bishop Williamson on Sedevacantism
    « Reply #10 on: February 20, 2010, 09:29:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: CM

    But just because the gates of hell have prevailed against the head of the Church and have spread to the members of the Church doesn't mean that they have prevailed against the Church.


    But you think that all the Popes since Benedict XV are anti-popes.  Since no one else believes this you are a lone member in a lone Church.  It will be short lived compared to the real Church.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Bishop Williamson on Sedevacantism
    « Reply #11 on: February 21, 2010, 01:50:14 PM »
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  • Both sides would do well to stop conflating the two basic arguments.

    1) personal heresy --> non-Pope
    2) teaching of error --> non-Pope

    major: Heretic cannot be pope.
    minor: Ratzinger is a heretic.
    conclusion:  Ratzinger cannot be pope.

    major:  Legitimate Pope cannot teach error to the Church.
    minor:  Ratzinger has taught error to the Church.
    conclusion:  Ratzinger cannot be a legitimate pope.

    sedevacantists and anti-sedevacantists hopelessly conflate these two lines of argument, and it makes their stuff difficult to read.  Thus also with Bishop Williamson above.