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Author Topic: Bishop Sanborn on the "Una Cuм"  (Read 240536 times)

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Bishop Sanborn on the "Una Cuм"
« on: September 28, 2025, 09:11:12 PM »
Bishop Donald Sanborn recently held a conference at Sacred Heart Church in Lawrence Massachusetts. During the conference, he spoke on the Una Cuм question for about 15-20 or so minutes. I do not hold the Non Una Cuм position but admittedly it sometimes puts me/my conscience at ill ease, especially since I struggle greatly with scrupulosity.

Here is the the entire "Una Cuм" section of the conference. Thoughts?



Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Bishop Sanborn on the "Una Cuм"
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2025, 10:41:46 PM »
I had a long argument with Father Desposito on X regarding the "una cuм" issue, and their position, at the end of the day, is complete nonsense.

While I respect a lof of what Bishop Sanborn et al. stand for, they have a very clear handicap of being unable to think in non-binary terms and to make simple distinctions.

Fr. Desposito argued that putting "una cuм Leone" in the Canon was the same thing as putting "una cuм diabolo", making absolutely no allowance for the FORMAL INTENT.  For him, those priests who put Leo's name in there either believing that he is, or at least might be the Pope, or, say, because they hold to the Cajetan opinion regarding a heretical pope, or because they're not sure ... these would be the same as a Satanist priest offering Mass in union with the devil.

That's borderline insane, and sometimes I think they flirt with insanity.

So, then St. Vincent Ferrer's Masses were all polluted sacrileges as well, since I guess formal intent makes no difference whatsoever, and there's zero room for material error.  So what if a couple hundred years ago some priest was putting "Pope Innocent's" name in the canon despite the fact that he had died and the current Pope was "Pope Clement", or some priest didn't know the name of the Pope, or even, to extend Fr. Desposito's analogy, some ignorant priest who overheard some other priest saying "Papa Diabolus" (where he was calling the Pope a devil), and not knowing Latin, offered his next Mass "una cuм Diabolo".  Those are examples of material error and not formal error, and for Fr. Desposito, and presumably Bishop Sanborn, formal intent makes absolutely no difference whatsoever ... and that stinks of Pharisaical leaven if ever anything did.  I guess that must suck for them, then, since if they're wrong about their SV position, they're going to Hell, since formal intent means nothing.

Not only that, but their radical view of the "una cuм" position becomes even MORE ABSURD when you consider their sedeprivationist position.  Since for them Leo (and his Conciliar predecessors) were MATERIAL popes, i.e. in material possession of office, so, what now? ... a priest who decides that material possesson of the office suffices to put the name into the Canon ... that person is now a heretical sacrilegous blaspheming Satanic heretic also?

Snap out of it, Bishop Sanborn and Father Desposito.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Bishop Sanborn on the "Una Cuм"
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2025, 11:16:13 PM »
So, watching this video, Bishop Sanborn makes a slight concession to people who might err "in good faith", but still considers it objectively grave sin, so that, once informed, such as by him here, then the person commits grave sin by assisting at the Novus Ordo.  That's just like saying that a person who doesn't go to Mass on, say, Ascension Thursday, not knowing it's a Holy Day of Obligation, can be excused subjectively of grave sin, but objectively commits grave sin.

But he continues to make the absurd claims that ...

1) the Mass of St. Vincent Ferrer, wherein he put the name of an Anti-Pope into the Canon, were schismatic Masses (his term) that displeased God as much as when the Orthodox don't put the Pope's name into the Canon -- making no distinction whatsoever between the fact that St. Vincent made a material error only, but put the name in there mistakenly THINKING he was the Pope, i.e. that his formal intention was to put the name of the Pope in there, whereas the Orthodox have the formal intention to NOT put the name of the Pope in there, and the same would hold of the guy who was just mistaken about the name of the current pope

2) also then categorizes a sedeprivationist who puts him in there since the material occupation of the office might serve as a visible sign of material unity) ... into that same category

3) claims that putting the name in there is tantamount to declaring the Novus Ordo and Conciliar Church legitimate ... which is also utter hogwash.  Father Chazal, for instance, puts Leo's name into the Canon, and holds that Leo has no authority whatsoever, and that none of his teaching is legitimate, etc. ... but puts him in there because he's the material / visible symbol of Communion and of Unity, without thereby professing the legitimacy of the Conciliar Church

Nor does he make a distinction between the priest who puts the "una cuм Leone" into the Canon and the faithful who assist at his Masses, even if they would not put the name in there if they were priests and offering the Mass, but who nevertheless do NOT agree with Bishop Sanborn's position regarding the "una cuм" matter.

Here we get into the schism being a transmissible disease like cooties, where I'm a shismatic not only for doing something schismatic, but also if I think that the priest is NOT doing something schismatic.  So, for instance, one radical proponent of BoD called me a heretic not because I believe in BoD (since I do not) because because I do not believe that those who believe in BoD are "per se" heretics.

Finally, for all that Bishop Sanborn talks about "the Church", ahem, well, as the Dimond Brothers -- and you don't get any more diehard SV than they are -- as the Dimond Brothers researched, the Church's attitude toward similar cases was quite different than Bishop Sanborn's, where, in some specific cases, the faithful were NOT commanded to avoid assisting at the Masses schismatic compromisers, provided they had used the Catholic Rite.

https://tinyurl.com/5atr69xp

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Bishop Sanborn on the "Una Cuм"
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2025, 05:28:32 AM »
Bishop Donald Sanborn recently held a conference at Sacred Heart Church in Lawrence Massachusetts. During the conference, he spoke on the Una Cuм question for about 15-20 or so minutes. I do not hold the Non Una Cuм position but admittedly it sometimes puts me/my conscience at ill ease, especially since I struggle greatly with scrupulosity.

Here is the the entire "Una Cuм" section of the conference. Thoughts?
A long time ago +Sanborn's private judgement, almost overnight morphed into dogmatic fact. You should have no scruples about this issue as long as you remember that the una cuм issue (and pretty much everything that has to do with it) is nothing more than people's opinion, it's nothing more than private judgement, a theory, a conspiracy theory, that the conciliar popes are not popes.     

Fr. Wathen: "We say that their private judgement in the matter must not be introduced into the Liturgy which is an official act of the Church. Their private judgement has no place in the sacred liturgy."

+Sanborn et al have allowed themselves to get to the point that this above fact ^^ is altogether blocked from entering into their thinking.


Archbishop Lefebvre: "… And then, he (Dom Guillou) goes through all the prayers of the Canon, all the prayers of the Roman Canon. He goes through them one after the other and then he shows the difference, he gives translations, very good ones. He gives, for example, precisely this famous.. you know, this famous una cuм.., una cuм of the sedevacantists. And you, do you say una cuм? (laughter of the nuns of St-Michel en Brenne). You say una cuм in the Canon of the Mass! Then we cannot pray with you; then you're not Catholic; you're not this; you're not that; you're not.. Ridiculous! ridiculous! because they claim that when we say una cuм summo Pontifice, the Pope, isn’t it, with the Pope, so therefore you embrace everything the Pope says. It’s ridiculous! It’s ridiculous! In fact, this is not the meaning of the prayer. Te igitur clementissime Pater. 

This is the first prayer of the Canon. So here is how Dom 
Guillou translates it, a very accurate translation, indeed: "We therefore pray Thee with profound humility, most merciful Father, and we beseech Thee, through Jesus Christ, Thy Son, Our Lord, to accept and to bless these gifts, these presents, these sacrifices, pure and without blemish, which we offer Thee firstly for Thy Holy Catholic Church. May it please Thee to give Her peace, to keep Her, to maintain Her in unity, and to govern Her throughout the earth, and with Her, Thy servant our Holy Father the Pope." It is not said in this prayer that we embrace all ideas that the Pope may have or all the things he may do. With Her, your servant our Holy Father the Pope, our Bishop and all those who practice the Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox faith! So to the extent where, perhaps, unfortunately, the Popes would no longer have ..., nor the bishops…, would be deficient in the Orthodox, Catholic and Apostolic Faith, well, we are not in union with them, we are not with them, of course. We pray for the Pope and all those who practice the Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox faith!" - Archbishop Lefebvre

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Bishop Sanborn on the "Una Cuм"
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2025, 08:05:34 AM »
A long time ago +Sanborn's private judgement, almost overnight morphed into dogmatic fact. You should have no scruples about this issue as long as you remember that the una cuм issue (and pretty much everything that has to do with it) is nothing more than people's opinion, it's nothing more than private judgement, a theory, a conspiracy theory, that the conciliar popes are not popes.   

So, the mistake they make is this, and others like, say, Father Jenkins has pointed this out, at a higher level, but does not break it down into the form of a syllogism (which is how I tend to see the world) --

Bishop Sanborn rightly identifies a dogmatic PREMISE of the implied syllogism leading to the SV conclusion.  He therefore classifies all those who reject his conclusion as heretics, because, the only way to reject a conclusion is to reject, what? ... ALL the premises?  Bishop Sanborn ignores the MINOR premises, that even if they're certain, even morally certain ... they are NOT de fide, and therefore, according to the "weakest link" principle of logic, peiorem partem sequitur conclusio, the conclusions cannot be dogmatic either.  One could deny the conclusion by 1) denying a non-dogmatic premise (rejecting the syllogism materially), or 2) pointing out some issues with the formal logic (a missed distinction being most common), or a combination of both.  That's actually what +Lefebvre did, hold back on affirming the MINOR premise, while explicitly affirming the MAJOR that Bishop Sanborn (in his muddled binary thinking) insists must be denied in order to reject the SV conclusions.  That is false, and that thinking speaks to the same black-and-white binary thinking they apply to the "una cuм" issue, where a priest who puts the name of the Conciliar Pope in the Canon because he THINKS the man is the Pope (having made an error), or just that he MIGHT be, or even that he likely is NOT, but adheres to the Cajetan / John of St. Thomas opinion, or just isn't sure and wants to give "benefit of the doubt" ... is exactly the same as someone who deliberately excludes the Pope due to rejection of the papacy (Orthodox).  For them, there's no difference between a Father Chazal, who inserts the name because he's the "visible sign of unity" (little different from sedeprivationists in this regard), and a Greek Orthodox who rejects the papacy in principle, i.e. between a materially-erroneous motive for inserting the name and a formally-erroneous motive.

Now, if +Sanborn at el. wanted to explain how or why, for these purposes, that distinction is not relevant, I invite them to do so and I will listen with an open mind, but they continue to plod along on this "una cuм" issue, causing consternation among the faithful's consciences, while pretending that such distinctions don't exist, where, according to Father Deposito, a priest who THINKS Leo is or might be the Pope might as well be a Satanist offering the Mass "una cuм diabolo".  What utter hogwash  That reductio ad absurdum alone suffices to debunk their reasoning.

Now, in the next step, they could argue ... well, even if the priest is mistaken, you can't go there if you don't think Leo is the Pope.  That's also false, since I could go there simply for DISAGREEING with their position on "una cuм" and thinking it's not inherently sacrilegous, blasphemous, and resulting in a "schismatic Mass" to put the name in there due to material error only, i.e. if I felt that I could have in good conscience assisted at the Mass of St. Vincent Ferrer even if I thought the one of the other guys was the pope  Again, I invite arguments along those lines, but they never even attempt to address these objections, but simply ignore them, pretend they don't exist, and circle the wagons behind the comfort and convenience of their black-and-white binary thinking ... having no tolerance for gray areas.