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Author Topic: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer  (Read 5456 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2025, 01:14:00 PM »
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  • I’ve been in exactly this situation except that no one ever even implied that I must be subject to the trad priest who was geographically closest to me.

    That part was just hyperbole to show that we're a step away from such absurdity.

    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer
    « Reply #31 on: March 07, 2025, 01:25:19 PM »
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  • I am not quite sure what Bp. Sanborn means when he says "If you add anything to the rosary, then you lose the indulgence." Is there some "liturgical and legal" way to say the rosary as passed down from Rome?  If I add a St. Joseph prayer on Our Father beads during the month of March, I therefore lose the indulgence? This seems to be a private opinion.  I am not sure why the bishop would change the way he says his rosary based upon something he read in the pages of William Thomas Walsh. Saying the rosary in Latin would be the best method if one were striving for liturgical exactitude.  But even then people will argue, "What Latin is to be said?"

    On the subject of jurisdiction, I remember in Winona years ago.  Bp. Williamson and the rest of us went to some orchestral concert in town.  I remember it was quite warm outside and the bishop wore a sweater vest which covered up his pectoral cross. He later told us that he covered up the pectoral cross because he knew that he did not have any jurisdiction in the diocese of Winona, and by covering up the cross he was avoiding any potential conversations which might arise among the laypeople in Winona.   
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    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer
    « Reply #32 on: March 07, 2025, 02:04:38 PM »
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  • That part was just hyperbole to show that we're a step away from such absurdity.
    Thank you! If this were true, I’d have to notify the nearest “resistance” bishop that I am now under his authority, but he needn’t bother himself with me. There are two small sub-details of his stand with which I disagree and cannot, in charity and for the good of souls, strictly obey. I understand his opinions and even concede he may be correct, but until these are confirmed by a real Pope and Catholic Magisterium, I must hold mental reservation for both myself and for others identifying themselves as Catholic.
    That is regrettable, because I otherwise believe he is closest to correct. I regularly listen to and am subscribed to his organization’s websites and streaming channels from which I have derived much benefit. But for as long as I am not permitted a modicuм of doubt, which I purposefully keep to myself, he must deny me the Sacraments and possibly, depending upon the correct interpretation of his list of requirements, admission to his chapels to hear Mass.
    As you say, absurdity if enforced by geographical location, but worse than absurd because of the potential harm to souls. If I were traveling and my only Mass option were his chapel and priests, or, God forbid, I had to live in his area, he’d deprive me of the very Sacraments necessary to save my soul. Waiting until in danger of death will likely be insufficient.

    And what’s mystifying to me is how an otherwise holy cleric can be blinded by the veil of Jansenism, Pharisaism, or simple pride, whatever it is, is beyond me. To me, it is straining at two fairy wasps and swallowing a great blue whale!



    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer
    « Reply #33 on: March 07, 2025, 02:13:00 PM »
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  • Thank you! If this were true, I’d have to notify the nearest “resistance” bishop that I am now under his authority, but he needn’t bother himself with me. There are two small sub-details of his stand with which I disagree and cannot, in charity and for the good of souls, strictly obey. I understand his opinions and even concede he may be correct, but until these are confirmed by a real Pope and Catholic Magisterium, I must hold mental reservation for both myself and for others identifying themselves as Catholic.
    That is regrettable, because I otherwise believe he is closest to correct. I regularly listen to and am subscribed to his organization’s websites and streaming channels from which I have derived much benefit. But for as long as I am not permitted a modicuм of doubt, which I purposefully keep to myself, he must deny me the Sacraments and possibly, depending upon the correct interpretation of his list of requirements, admission to his chapels to hear Mass.
    As you say, absurdity if enforced by geographical location, but worse than absurd because of the potential harm to souls. If I were traveling and my only Mass option were his chapel and priests, or, God forbid, I had to live in his area, he’d deprive me of the very Sacraments necessary to save my soul. Waiting until in danger of death will likely be insufficient.

    And what’s mystifying to me is how an otherwise holy cleric can be blinded by the veil of Jansenism, Pharisaism, or simple pride, whatever it is, is beyond me. To me, it is straining at two fairy wasps and swallowing a great blue whale!
    So true!  This is such a Crisis.  Hopefully it will not last another 70 years.  May God have mercy on us all.
    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer
    « Reply #34 on: March 07, 2025, 02:26:42 PM »
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  • On the subject of jurisdiction, I remember in Winona years ago.  Bp. Williamson and the rest of us went to some orchestral concert in town.  I remember it was quite warm outside and the bishop wore a sweater vest which covered up his pectoral cross. He later told us that he covered up the pectoral cross because he knew that he did not have any jurisdiction in the diocese of Winona, and by covering up the cross he was avoiding any potential conversations which might arise among the laypeople in Winona. 
    It’s also possible that H.E. just wanted to enjoy an evening of music without turning it into an evening of polemics. Everyone needs periods of relaxation. A bishop is no exception. Since the concert was in Winona, it is highly doubtful there was any obligation on +Bp. W’s part to preach to people who already knew what he stood for. I’m not familiar with Winona but if the novus ordo there was like most of the US, the vast majority of the n.o. laity were largely ignorant and/or didn’t care about licitity of the bishop in the diocese. 
    I highly doubt it was the fear of man, rather, a matter of prudence and common sense. The other people were there to enjoy a concert, not hold a religious council. A lot of them probably weren’t even Catholic. 
    One who goes about publicly expounding upon his beliefs at all times and in all places is a fool. 


    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer
    « Reply #35 on: March 07, 2025, 02:38:07 PM »
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  • So true!  This is such a Crisis.  Hopefully it will not last another 70 years.  May God have mercy on us all.
    For this reason, plus others of much greater significance, Bp. W.’s wake and funeral Mass were in a building that resembled a corner of a parking garage at Costco. His grave is in a secret location far from that of his mentor and those he faithfully served most of his life. (No offense to the owner of the facility. I write on the basis of the few photos here on CI.) It will be no surprise to me if H.E.’s grave is in a privately owned, locked cemetery, inaccessible to the public or his many supporters. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer
    « Reply #36 on: March 07, 2025, 02:55:36 PM »
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  • If I were a bishop or even priest ...

    Let's say I believed CMRI were tainted with Old Catholicism (I don't).  I would advise the faithful regarding my opinion, and indicate that I felt it was a danger to their souls.  But I would give the Sacraments to those who did not agree.

    I believe that NFP is wrong, but since Pope Pius XII and most theologians seemed to think otherwise, I would not refuse absolution to those who followed that opinion.  This would be true even if I did have some jurisdiction, since that of Pius XII would trump mine.  I would explain my opinion, but then make it clear that "This is my opinion, but Pius XII and various theologians concluded otherwise, so I will not impose my own opinion on your conscience."

    Let's say I believed +Thuc line was doubtfully valid (I don't ... for the major lines anyway).  I would advise the faithful regarding my opinion, and indicate that I felt they were in danger of invalid Sacraments.  But I myself would give the Sacraments to those who did not agree.

    ... I could go on about every disputed issue other than ones that have been explicitly clarified by the Church were rejecting it would be tantamount to rejecting the Church's teaching authority ... e.g. if someone said they did not believe in papal infallibility, for instance, yeah, THEN I would refuse the Sacraments.

    You could say that I'm both a hard-liner (in terms of objective truth) and soft-liner (in tolerating/permitting things I disagree with so long as they are not defined by the Church ... and also on matters of moral theology where some theologians hold a certain opinion -- following the probabilist stance of St. Alphonsus).

    People don't understand the distinction.  I will often argue that something is heretical, but in the sense of OBJECTIVE heresy.  It was always objective heresy, contrary to revealed truth, to reject papal infallibility or the Immaculate Conception ... but before the Church had sufficiently clarified, i.e. where your rejection of such was tantamount to rejecting the Church's teaching authority, the Church has never considered such to be formal / pertinacious heretics.

    Unfortunately it's a distinction that most people don't understand (even though there are some clear/simple examples), including those who make the accusation of heresy.

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer
    « Reply #37 on: March 07, 2025, 03:49:43 PM »
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  • Back to the original topic, whether indulgences are lost by praying a few “wrong” words in the TRANSLATED to English Fatima Prayer. Unless the meaning of the prayer is substantially changed, no translation is perfect. Unless prayed entirely in Latin, the Latin used by Our Lady to St. Simon Stock, and the Aramaic of St. Matthew for the Pater Noster, the majority of prayers uttered by Catholics throughout the world are without indulgences, even those in the Raccolta. 
    If the first utterance of the Fatima Prayer was in Portuguese, surely we must switch to Portuguese.
    I think, again, for what little that’s worth, that allowances are made for the difficulty and scholarly disagreements as to best translations, and to fervent added prayers of the faithful, provided they do not doctrinally change the meaning of the prayer.
    That is why it is wrong to pray the so-called “illuminative mysteries” as part of the Rosary. There are 15 Mysteries, not 20. Prove it? Sure! The Rosary is based upon Our Lady’s meditation of all 150 psalms. (Not 151 as in Protestant Bibles or 200 as promulgated by JP II.) Addition to the Rosary deviates from the original intent. However, if one wants to meditate on the Scriptures of the added five, there is nothing amiss, just not part of the Rosary.) Adding the Fatima prayer originates with revelations to a canonized, pre-VII Saint. Determining the best translation can be accomplished perfectly by Divine Revelation, slightly imperfectly by a Catholic linguist who is an expert in Latin, Portuguese, English, and every other vernacular language used by the faithful. As for losing Indulgences for any other than deliberate corruption of a prayer, if there is anything linking this idea to Scripture, Tradition, and Magisterial ruling, please enlighten me!
    I sometimes hear Mass at a chapel that uses +Bp. Sanborn’s St. Michael and Fatima prayers. So what? Even in SSPX circles in the USA, I’ve heard slightly different wording of the St. Michael prayer. Does the devil “prowl” or “wander” seeking the ruin of souls? Which is the best  Latin translation of the words actually heard by Pope Leo XIII? You’re asking me when scholars don’t agree? I taught myself Latin at age 48 on up by studying the Mass in the Fr. Lasance and St. Andrew missals, then later by sitting silently in the back of Classical Latin, first half of year one along with a class of eighth graders.
    On days for The Sorrowful (or should we say Dolorous) Mysteries, if praying privately, I do a brief examine of conscience pertaining to the associated virtues attached to each mystery, include my sins or weaknesses in the meditations, and make an Act of Contrition after the Gloria. I also add a Confiteor at the conclusion of the five decades. Have I, by this practice, forfeited all attached indulgences? 
    When it comes down to it, since so many of us are in abnormal situations due to the crisis, I resist the temptation to allow my mind to be overtaken by such matters to focus on Jesus Christ. Getting obsessed with polemics and minutiae is a tool Satan uses on well-intentioned trads. It’s a trap I’ve fallen into from time to time, and a trap much in evidence on trad websites, including CathInfo.  Unless deliberate, it’s not a mortal sin. If we find ourselves ensnared or being drawn, we must stop and ask Christ to take our thoughts (and feelings, ladies especially) captive to Himself. Pray to Mary whose gentle, motherly demeanor guides us to her Son.
    All Blessings,
    Seraphina


    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer
    « Reply #38 on: March 07, 2025, 03:59:53 PM »
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  • If I were a bishop or even priest ...
    :pray: Let’s thank God you are not because He chose a different vocation for you…

    :pray::pray::pray: Let’s be triply thankful I’m not a bishop or even priest…

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer
    « Reply #39 on: March 07, 2025, 04:53:42 PM »
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  • Quote
    Further, even in normal circuмstances, a priest is never to deny sacraments to any faithful who present themselves unless that the faithful are notorious public sinners,
    Exactly.  This is obvious.  And that’s the question asked by Trento…he said public, unrepentant sinner, as you describe above.  The answer is obvious.  That’s why the question was silly.  

    Trento meant it as a “gotcha” question, as he often does.  

    Offline Predestination2

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    Re: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer
    « Reply #40 on: March 07, 2025, 06:03:56 PM »
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  • Trad bishops have no authority to make any such statements. They can offer an OPINION; they can offer a SUGGESTION. Yet they have no juridical authority to declare anything. And appealing to "supplied jurisdiction" in this kind of matter would betray a complete canonical ignorance of supplied jurisdiction, which is always occasional, never habitual, and has no relationship to juridical authority but only to sacramental administration.

    All trad clergy are properly sacramental vending machines, nothing else. This is both positive -- they supply valid sacraments in an era of crisis. This is also negative -- they are not pastors and cannot provide the same curam animarum as would a lawful pastor in normal times.

    Were I a trad bishop, I would keep the wearing of episcopal regalia to a minimum for daily attire and only use full pontificalia for liturgical functions.
    This is bordering on denying the church has formal apostolicity

    Thuc line bishops have ordinary delegated jurisdiction

    read canon 199 (of the real code not the bogus ‘83 code)

    And epikeia applies to canon 199.5 because other wise we wouldn’t have bishops with ordinary jurisdiction .


    1917 CIC Canon 199 -
    § 1. Whoever has ordinary power of jurisdiction can delegate it to another in whole or in part,
    unless it is expressly provided otherwise by law.
    § 2. Even the power of jurisdiction delegated by the Apostolic See can be subdelegated either for an act or even habitually, unless [the one with the power] was chosen because of personal characteristics or subdelegation is prohibited.
    § 3. Power delegated for a universe of causes by one below the Roman Pontiff who has ordinary
    power can be subdelegated for individual cases.
    § 4. In other cases, delegated power of jurisdiction can only be subdelegated by a concession expressly made, although delegated judges can delegate the non-jurisdictional elements [of their work without express commission.
    § 5. No subdelegated power can be subdelegated again, unless this was expressly granted.


    One could even argue that the Thuc line bishops are habitually subdelegating to the Mendez line bishops


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer
    « Reply #41 on: March 07, 2025, 07:10:14 PM »
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  • This is bordering on denying the church has formal apostolicity

    Thuc line bishops have ordinary delegated jurisdiction

    :facepalm: ... it just doesn't stop.  Ignorami should just shut up, stop posting, pray the Rosary, and try to save their souls.

    Offline Predestination2

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    Re: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer
    « Reply #42 on: March 07, 2025, 10:08:21 PM »
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  • :facepalm: ... it just doesn't stop.  Ignorami should just shut up, stop posting, pray the Rosary, and try to save their souls.
    If canon 199 is wrong then refute it 


    But I was wrong on saying that it borders on denying formal Apostolicity because theologians do state that the marks of the church operate differently during sedevacante. My bad.