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Author Topic: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer  (Read 6067 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2025, 02:23:54 AM »
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    Does it mean that trad clergy cannot deny Communion to public unrepentant sinners?
    What a silly, childish question.  

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer
    « Reply #16 on: March 07, 2025, 03:45:13 AM »
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  • I refer you to this study by Professor of Canon Law Georg May: https://sspx.org/en/disposition-law-case-necessity-church-30932
    I am very well aware of and familiar with Dr. May's  study. I disagree with it. In these matters appeals to canon law are weak. The Church existed long before canon law, especially the 1917 or 1983 Codes as well as the Corpus. And nothing in Latin canon law applies to the Eastern Churches, although some universal principles are present in the Latin code, principles that are operative apart from the code and are restated in the code for emphasis and clarity, universal principles likewise operative in Eastern law.

    Appeals to canon law in a crisis of such magnitude as we are experiencing is sophomoric if not blind. This is not to sound antinomian; ecclesiastical law has an important rôle in the Church. But one needs to grasp the place, purpose, and correct application of canon law -- and liturgical law which is distinct from canon law and enunciated elsewhere.

    Trad clergy --  trad bishops -- have no authority to govern the faithful. Holy Orders confers the three-fold powers of priest, prophet, king. But they have no ordinary authority to exercise these offices. Supplied jurisdiction gives the authorisation to exercise the power of priest; the crisis itself supplies the authorisation to exercise the power of prophet, but this applies to all Catholics in light of our common baptism.  We are all prophets in this crisis. But nothing provides for extraordinary exercise of the power of king, the juridical office.

    Many trads play an ecclesiastical fantasy game. I pray that this faerie glamour is lifted and that they return to reality.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila


    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer
    « Reply #17 on: March 07, 2025, 04:11:32 AM »
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  • What a silly, childish question. 
    No, the question regarding denial of communion is a serious question. It is a concrete reality that some may face, e.g., some trad clergy deny the sacraments to "Feeneyites" whilst others deny communion to any who attend una cuм Masses.

    In none of these cases do trad clergy have the authority to deny the sacraments. Since the faithful in question are not notorious or public sinners as defined by the Church. A strict, I would say argue proper, understanding of EENS and baptism is a legitimate, I would say correct, interpretation of this dogma. To deny communion to anyone holding this so-called Feeneyism is beyond the authority of a priest. That attending an una cuм Mass be sinful is a mere theological opinion, I would argue wrong theological opinion and I am stating being a sede myself. For a priest to impose this opinion on the faithful is ultra vires and a grave abuse. No trad priest or bishop has the authority to impose any opinion on the faithful as if this were authentic teaching. They simply lack the juridical authority to do so.

    Further, even in normal circuмstances, a priest is never to deny sacraments to any faithful who present themselves unless that the faithful are notorious public sinners, e.g., publicly known to be cohabitating, or are engaged in public scandal at the moment when the sacraments are sought, e.g., wearing a bikini to Mass. No clergyman can presume to know occult sins; even in normal times the Church does not and cannot judge the internal forum -- note that the Roman dicastery for matters of the internal forum operates differently than the courts pertaining to public matters because the internal cannot be known.

    Trad clergy exist who do illegitimately deny sacraments -- God have mercy on these who deny God's mercy to others. Trad faithful accept this and play in this fantasy world -- shame on them.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline anonymouscatholicus

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    Re: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer
    « Reply #18 on: March 07, 2025, 04:32:32 AM »
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  • Could not agree more, and the same goes for r&r priests who deny communion to sede laymen and use spiritual blackmail over the papacy issue. How will they stand before Our Lord? Do they not fear for their salvation? 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer
    « Reply #19 on: March 07, 2025, 06:14:09 AM »
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  • Elwin is 100% correct.  There's absolutely no way the Trad clergy, including bishops, have any kind of even-quasi-habitual jurisdiction, especially to bind consciences on matters that have not been decided by the Church ... e.g. whether the CMRI are a schismatic sect or the +Thuc orders are valid or whether Feeneyites are to be denied Sacraments.  At best a priest, even a bishop, may opine on the matter and say, "I caution you about the +Thuc orders, that you may be jeopardizing your soul." ... but then to "enforce" it by refusing the Sacraments when conferring the Sacraments is the only reason they're priests and bishops in the first place, they're committing grave sin when they engage in such activities.

    Canon Law provides for transient / fleeting / ephemeral jurisdiction for specific acts and does not in any way confer any kind of habitual jurisdiction.  "Transient" was the best word I could come up with, but it's probably not the right term.  Perhaps Elwin knows.  In other words, the Church would supply the jurisdiction necessary to provide absolution in Confession, but that's where it ends, and the second that the absolution has finished being conferred, any authority ceases.

    Beyond that, the Trad clergy only have whatever moral authority they may have earned due to their knowledge, holiness, etc.  That's why a +Lefebvre has more authority than a +Fellay, for instance ... MORAL authority.  Otherwise, +Fellay would be on a par with +Lefebvre.

    But then on many/most issues, you have as many different opinions as you do Trad clergy.  So which Trad clergy can bind YOUR conscience, Trad bishop A or Trad bishop B, or Trad priest C or Trad priest D?  If I don't like what I hear, I just go to another Trad priest.

    Not only is this dumb ... or, wait?, maybe the Trad priest closest to me has jurisdiction over me right? ... well, what about where I have 3 competing Trad groups in my immediate area ... to which one am I bound to submit? ... not only is this dumb, but it's a completely schismatic attitude to pretend that Trad clergy have any kind of even quasi-habitual jurisdiction.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer
    « Reply #20 on: March 07, 2025, 06:20:46 AM »
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  • Further, even in normal circuмstances, a priest is never to deny sacraments to any faithful who present themselves unless that the faithful are notorious public sinners, e.g., publicly known to be cohabitating, or are engaged in public scandal at the moment when the sacraments are sought, e.g., wearing a bikini to Mass. No clergyman can presume to know occult sins; even in normal times the Church does not and cannot judge the internal forum -- note that the Roman dicastery for matters of the internal forum operates differently than the courts pertaining to public matters because the internal cannot be known.

    Yes, I recall reading about this subject and being a bit surprised.  Let's say I am a priest and know for a fact (outside of the internal forum, i.e. outside Confession) that this man here is a sodomite living with his boyfriend, or this woman is living in sin with some man not her husband ... unless it's NOTORIOUS and WELL KNOWN to the congregation, I must still give him Holy Communion if he presents himself.  Thinking more upon it, I guess that makes sense, since who's to say the individual didn't repent and make full purpose/intention of amendment 10 minutes prior in the Confessional?  So the only reason to forbid the Sacraments is if it would cause scandal among the faithful, where the faithful would know "Hey, everyone knows this guy's an active sodomite, so why is the priests giving him Communion?"  Scandal there is that the faithful might be given the impression that the Church condones sodomy (as Jorge has done with FS or regarding adultery with AL).

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer
    « Reply #21 on: March 07, 2025, 06:45:21 AM »
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  • Canon Law provides for transient / fleeting / ephemeral jurisdiction for specific acts and does not in any way confer any kind of habitual jurisdiction.  "Transient" was the best word I could come up with, but it's probably not the right term.  Perhaps Elwin knows.  In other words, the Church would supply the jurisdiction necessary to provide absolution in Confession, but that's where it ends, and the second that the absolution has finished being conferred, any authority ceases.
    Different legists use different terms to identify the temporary faculties to administer a sacrament through ecclesia supplet.

    I like your term "transient" which would pertain to the chronological length of such faculties. I tend to use the term "occasional" which comes from the perspective of isolated events, e.g., THESE faithful have come to THIS priest who lacks jurisdiction and faculties at  THIS moment to seek ecclesiastical witness for their marriage. They believe themselves morally impeded from exchanging vows andxseeking ecclesiastical witness before someone presumed to hold such jurusdiction and faculties (delegation held by one's local Novus Ordo clergy). Therefore, in THIS instance, for THIS occasion, the Church supplies what is lacking for the sacrament. In this case, either the couple is dispensed ipso facto from proper form or delegation (jurisdiction and faculties) is supplied to the priest -- canonists could argue either way.

    Note that none of this pertains to defining/teaching doctrines or determining disciplines. Those are powers of the Magisterium to which trad clergy do not belong.

    But in no way can a trad priest walk around, chest puffed-up, claiming "the Church gives me jurisdiction, everywhere and at all times, because supplied jurisdiction."

    Please, Bishop Trad, please, Father Trad, come back from the fictional (and insane, as Lewis Carroll laboured to convey) world of Wonderland. You are here to serve the sacramental needs of the faithful and exist for no other function.

    NOTA BENE:  Fr. Trad Xperson who completed a seminary course in canon law taught by a seminary professor who himself had only one, maybe two, courses in canon law is NOT a canon lawyer or canon law expert. They have not gone through the 36 semester hours plus thesis for a License in Canon Law -- even more studies for the JCD. I myself am FAR from a canonist and would never present myself as such.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer
    « Reply #22 on: March 07, 2025, 07:00:13 AM »
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  • But in no way can a trad priest walk around, chest puffed-up, claiming "the Church gives me jurisdiction, everywhere and at all times, because supplied jurisdiction."

    I mean, how far away are we from the point where +Musey and +Vezelis split up the US jurisdiction into 2 halves?


    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer
    « Reply #23 on: March 07, 2025, 09:45:16 AM »
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  • It's good to see that we still have some people in "traddieland" who don't live in a fantasy world.

    In my experience, "trad" priests are usually even more dellusional then their faithful. It's part of the chastisement.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer
    « Reply #24 on: March 07, 2025, 10:15:35 AM »
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  • It's good to see that we still have some people in "traddieland" who don't live in a fantasy world.

    In my experience, "trad" priests are usually even more dellusional then their faithful. It's part of the chastisement.

    You know, I think you're right, and the same thought has crossed my mind.  There are more of the faithful who have their "heads screwed on right" where it comes to many of these issues.  Now of course there are far more faithful than clergy, but even PERCENTAGE-wise, a greater percentage of the faithful have the right sensibilities about such matters than many of the clergy do.

    I don't know if it's because there's a temptation to be puffed up or its due to excessive time spent on polemics against the "other groups", where what I see happening is that in rejecting what could rightly be seen as an error on the other side, they nearly always OVERREACT too far in the other direction and then end up in error on the opposite extreme.

    Offline Gunter

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    Re: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer
    « Reply #25 on: March 07, 2025, 10:22:02 AM »
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  • I would think God is generous with regards to pius beliefs. 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer
    « Reply #26 on: March 07, 2025, 10:28:08 AM »
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  • I would think God is generous with regards to pius beliefs.

    Yeah, there can be a tendency to a bit of Pharisaism here, excessive legalism, and that just isn't the mind of the Church or of God.  As I said, I'd rather leave indulgences on the table than to sit there neurotically worrying if I accidentally added a single word, which by their reasoning would negate the indulgences.

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer
    « Reply #27 on: March 07, 2025, 10:35:15 AM »
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  • Bishop Sanborn discusses starting at about the 12:30 timestamp for a few a minutes the Fatima Prayer and says should not be prayed in the Rosary, save for an approval of a version given by a Spanish bishop in a particular diocese.

    Comments?
    If H.E. is referring to the dresses worn by women in recent decades, to ceremonies like Grammys. Super Bowl, Oscars, etc., I disagree. Trousers are much more modest!  Even at weddings, the gowns are extremely immodest. 

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer
    « Reply #28 on: March 07, 2025, 10:44:41 AM »
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  • You know, I think you're right, and the same thought has crossed my mind.  There are more of the faithful who have their "heads screwed on right" where it comes to many of these issues.  Now of course there are far more faithful than clergy, but even PERCENTAGE-wise, a greater percentage of the faithful have the right sensibilities about such matters than many of the clergy do.

    I don't know if it's because there's a temptation to be puffed up or its due to excessive time spent on polemics against the "other groups", where what I see happening is that in rejecting what could rightly be seen as an error on the other side, they nearly always OVERREACT too far in the other direction and then end up in error on the opposite extreme.

    In my opinion, it's simpler than that. Priests, by their very nature, are way more powerful than the faithful, and the faithful have no other option than to rely on them to receive the sacraments. So, it's easy to become a proud fool and get a bit on the crazy side when you know that you are kind of a special and rare breed. 

    Plus, Traditionalist clergy have no clear limits. There's no clear ruling on their rights and duties, and the superiors are often even more unbalanced than their subordinates. Add to this the competition between the groups, and you have all the ingredients for chaos.


    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Bishop Sanborn on Fatima Prayer
    « Reply #29 on: March 07, 2025, 11:27:43 AM »
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  • Not only is this dumb ... or, wait?, maybe the Trad priest closest to me has jurisdiction over me right? ... well, what about where I have 3 competing Trad groups in my immediate area ... to which one am I bound to submit? ... not only is this dumb, but it's a completely schismatic attitude to pretend that Trad clergy have any kind of even quasi-habitual jurisdiction.
    I’ve been in exactly this situation except that no one ever even implied that I must be subject to the trad priest who was geographically closest to me. I made the mistake of having friends or acquaintances from all the different chapels whose separation originated in disputes dating from when I was a child of five and six years, living on a military base in a foreign country. 
    Decades later, as an adult without a “dog” in any camp, but with friends or acquaintances in all three, I found myself relegated to having to make a choice not only between chapels but also between with whom I could associate in everyday life. For example, break off with a close friend whose particular chapel was the one of the three with whose priest’s stand on an issue beyond the scope of the crisis was the one farthest from my personal opinion. 
    The end result was that I was was denied Sacraments at all three ‘options.” It was a choice between choosing a faction or sinning against charity towards other Catholics and endangering my own soul by staying “Home Alone,”—-in which case the members of all three were technically obliged in conscience, to disassociate with me. 
    It was a situation where my real choice was to violate the Natural Law of noncontradiction or to leave. Despite my original intent to accept a very favorable job opportunity in the area, I turned down the job and returned to the worldly environment with one option of Mass every four to six weeks after a three hour drive. No way was I going to risk losing my faith by dwelling in a hornets’ nest for the sake of financial stability.