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Author Topic: SSPX (and related "spin offs") is not there to serve the faithful. Apparently.  (Read 745 times)

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Offline Giovanni Berto

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Lately I have had some bad experiences with some SSPX priests. Sometimes I get the impression that they act like the faithful are there to serve them, and not the other way around. I feel like I am a bother to them. Of course this could be personal problems, and not a institutional problem.

I remebered something I had read about the statues and the "reason of being" of the SSPX. I found this:
 
"
Chapter II: The Purpose of the Society (De Sodalitii fine)
The Society’s purpose is the priesthood and all that pertains to it and nothing but what concerns it; i.e., the priesthood as Our Lord Jesus Christ willed it when He said, “Do this for a commemoration of me.”
The Society must therefore orient the priest towards—and have him concretize in his daily life what is essentially his raison d’etre: the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, with all that it means. All that flows from it, and all that complements it.
The Society’s members will therefore have a true and continual devotion towards their Holy Mass, towards the Liturgy which enshrines it, and towards everything which contributes to make the Liturgy more expressive of the Mystery accomplished in it… A profound theological knowledge of the Sacrifice of the Mass will convince them always more firmly that the whole Revelation, the Mystery of Faith, the completion of the Mysteries of the Incarnation and Redemption, and the whole efficacy of the apostolate are accomplished in this sublime reality.
Chapter III: The Society’s Activities (De Sodalitii Operibus)
[The Society’s activities] include all the works necessary for the formation of priests and whatever pertains thereto, whether the candidates be destined to be members of the Society or not…
The second purpose of the Society is to assist priests in their sanctification by providing them with opportunities for retreats and recollections. The Society’s houses could be headquarters for priestly associations, for third orders, for periodicals and magazines dedicated to the sanctification of priests…
The Society will willingly come to the assistance of aged, infirm, and even unfaithful priests.
"

So it seems that the SSPX are related "spin offs" are actually self serving. I mean, they are not there to help the faithful to get to heaven. They are there to preserve the priesthood and that's it. The reason for the SSPX to exist is not to help the faithful in the chaos of the crisis of the Church. So it makes a lot of sense that the priests expect the faithful to serve them. They feel entitled to it.

Also, as they have no jurisdiction, they have absolutely no duties toward the faithful. They only do this because they are "nice". If the superior suddenly decided that all SSPX will reside at Econe and live like monks, he could do it overnight. They have no obligation towards no one but themselves. They are self centered. It is even in the statutes.

I am looking for more priviledged minds to help me here. Did I get something wrong?

Offline SeanJohnson

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  • Yes, you did get a couple things wrong:

    1) Yes, the SSPX is concerned to preserve the priesthood, but you omit the following words:

    “...and all that pertains to it.”

    That one phrase opens their apostolate to a much broader field of action than you are giving credit for, and serves as the basis for many of the concrete services and institutions you are overlooking:

    Schools, catechism classes, retirement homes, marriage instruction, publishing good books and magazines, giving conferences, preaching retreats, combating global and Roman modernism (at least until recently), leading pilgrimages, etc.

    This activity is all directed outward, primarily for the benefit of the faithful, not themselves.


    2) It is wrong to say the SSPX has no jurisdiction, unless you are denying the validity of Ecclesia supplet (in which case you would be wrong).  They also have conciliar ordinary jurisdiction, as most would be aware (are you new to tradition?), so even if you rejected the former, your contention does not hold true, in light of the latter.


    3) Likewise, the mere presence of #2 (ie., jurisdiction) imparts the same obligations to the faithful which you deny exist.  For example, the obligation to dispense sacraments to recipients for whom they have no certain knowledge of mortal sin; they are obligated to instruct the faithful in preparation for the reception of the sacraments; etc.  To whatever extent Society priests might fail in this regard, we would be speaking of the personal and human failures to which we are all subject, not a defective policy based upon the Statutes of the Society (as I mentioned above at #1).


    Keep in mind, this defense comes from one who is very critical of the Society’s ralliement to modernist Rome.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Giovanni Berto

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  • Yes, you did get a couple things wrong:

    1) Yes, the SSPX is concerned to preserve the priesthood, but you omit the following words:

    “...and all that pertains to it.”

    That one phrase opens their apostolate to a much broader field of action than you are giving credit for, and serves as the basis for many of the concrete services and institutions you are overlooking:

    Schools, catechism classes, retirement homes, marriage instruction, publishing good books and magazines, giving conferences, preaching retreats, combating global and Roman modernism (at least until recently), leading pilgrimages, etc.

    This activity is all directed outward, primarily for the benefit of the faithful, not themselves.


    2) It is wrong to say the SSPX has no jurisdiction, unless you are denying the validity of Ecclesia supplet (in which case you would be wrong).  They also have conciliar ordinary jurisdiction, as most would be aware (are you new to tradition?), so even if you rejected the former, your contention does not hold true, in light of the latter.


    3) Likewise, the mere presence of #2 (ie., jurisdiction) imparts the same obligations to the faithful which you deny exist.  For example, the obligation to dispense sacraments to recipients for whom they have no certain knowledge of mortal sin; they are obligated to instruct the faithful in preparation for the reception of the sacraments; etc.  To whatever extent Society priests might fail in this regard, we would be speaking of the personal and human failures to which we are all subject, not a defective policy based upon the Statutes of the Society (as I mentioned above at #1).


    Keep in mind, this defense comes from one who is very critical of the Society’s ralliement to modernist Rome.
    In reply:
    1) Yes, they do all that, but "all that pertains to it" is kind of vague. Most of the things you mentioned seem to me to be the responsibility of a diocesan bishop. The priests are assistants to the bishops. In regular times, I understand the no priest could do any of these things without the approval of the local bishop. 
    I understand that it was a very tricky thing to estabilish an institution to "save the church" without creating a parallel church, which is what would happen had the good archbishop created "dioceses". 
    We could say that Bishop Castro Mayer did something a little more daring and risky, as he had a kind of "parallel diocese".
    2 and 3) I should have worded it better. I was refering to territorial jurisdiction. If a priest is not responsible for a parish, who are his faithful? Who is he obliged to assist? 
    What prevents the SSPX from leaving, for example, the US tomorrow? Do they have an obligation towards the American faithful? They are not responsible for any parishes. 
    I am against any kind of ralliement, which is the only way to have a "SSPX parish", at least during the terrible crisis we live in, but what I am saying is simply that if you have no territory, how do you define "your" faithful?
    During this "coronacrisis", our priest has made it very clear that we are forbidden to invite "people from the outside", since we have to book our seats for mass in advance due to attendance limits imposed by secular authorities. How does he define who is in and who is out? Judging only by the time that somebody attends to their masses? It sounds rather absurd to me.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • In reply:
    1) Yes, they do all that, but "all that pertains to it" is kind of vague. Most of the things you mentioned seem to me to be the responsibility of a diocesan bishop. The priests are assistants to the bishops. In regular times, I understand the no priest could do any of these things without the approval of the local bishop.
    I understand that it was a very tricky thing to estabilish an institution to "save the church" without creating a parallel church, which is what would happen had the good archbishop created "dioceses".
    We could say that Bishop Castro Mayer did something a little more daring and risky, as he had a kind of "parallel diocese".
    2 and 3) I should have worded it better. I was refering to territorial jurisdiction. If a priest is not responsible for a parish, who are his faithful? Who is he obliged to assist?
    What prevents the SSPX from leaving, for example, the US tomorrow? Do they have an obligation towards the American faithful? They are not responsible for any parishes.
    I am against any kind of ralliement, which is the only way to have a "SSPX parish", at least during the terrible crisis we live in, but what I am saying is simply that if you have no territory, how do you define "your" faithful?
    During this "coronacrisis", our priest has made it very clear that we are forbidden to invite "people from the outside", since we have to book our seats for mass in advance due to attendance limits imposed by secular authorities. How does he define who is in and who is out? Judging only by the time that somebody attends to their masses? It sounds rather absurd to me.

    1) Supposing you were correct, it would be even MORE commendable that they would voluntarily undertake those apostolates which you claim are not based in their Constitutions (and this in turn would further undercut your criticism of a certain self-centeredness all the more);

    2&3) It matters not whether jurisdiction is personal or territorial: In either case, the priest who exercises it incurs obligations on behalf of those for whom he exercises it.

    A canonical argument in this regard is neither here nor there:

    A priest or bishop who would dispense a sacrament is obligated to know that those who receive it are eligible and/or prepared.

    I haven’t heard much of anything about the Society failing in this regard, before your claim (which appears to be based more on hypotheticals than reality);

    As for the SSPX ralliement, I am pleased that you oppose it, and I too have objected to some of their COVID19 responses, but you are making the argument that the SSPX is essentially and systematically self-serving, (because of a too narrow apostolate stemming from their Constitutions, which you contend fixates unduly on the priesthood).

    But I’m not sure you are taking a wide enough glance, when you omit to consider those same Constitutions as requiring “all that pertains to” the priesthood (which in turn is responsible for all those services and institutions they have erected for your benefit, not theirs).

    It is that one clause which makes your claim that there is nothing stopping them from running off from becoming monks ridiculous (and I note again here that this contention has veered off into hypothetical future contingencies), in addition to all the concrete institutions erected for your benefit which would make such a development impossible..

    I do admit to being furious about the “company first” mindset which has resulted in some who would/should have resisted instead preferring to remain quiet for the “good” (!) of the Society, but even that does not cancel out all the rest.
    Hi 
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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  • 1) Supposing you were correct, it would be even MORE commendable that they would voluntarily undertake those apostolates which you claim are not based in their Constitutions (and this in turn would further undercut your criticism of a certain self-centeredness all the more);

    2&3) It matters not whether jurisdiction is personal or territorial: In either case, the priest who exercises it incurs obligations on behalf of those for whom he exercises it.

    A canonical argument in this regard is neither here nor there:

    A priest or bishop who would dispense a sacrament is obligated to know that those who receive it are eligible and/or prepared.

    I haven’t heard much of anything about the Society failing in this regard, before your claim (which appears to be based more on hypotheticals than reality);

    As for the SSPX ralliement, I am pleased that you oppose it, and I too have objected to some of their COVID19 responses, but you are making the argument that the SSPX is essentially and systematically self-serving, (because of a too narrow apostolate stemming from their Constitutions, which you contend fixates unduly on the priesthood).

    But I’m not sure you are taking a wide enough glance, when you omit to consider those same Constitutions as requiring “all that pertains to” the priesthood (which in turn is responsible for all those services and institutions they have erected for your benefit, not theirs).

    It is that one clause which makes your claim that there is nothing stopping them from running off from becoming monks ridiculous (and I note again here that this contention has veered off into hypothetical future contingencies), in addition to all the concrete institutions erected for your benefit which would make such a development impossible..

    I do admit to being furious about the “company first” mindset which has resulted in some who would/should have resisted instead preferring to remain quiet for the “good” (!) of the Society, but even that does not cancel out all the rest.
    Hi
    You make some good points, I thank you for you responses.
    If I could, it would be interesting to see how the SSPX functions in the rest of the world. The daily life in the chapels I mean. My knowledge is very limited. This is obviously not possible for me.
    I believe we have serious issues, but they seem to be more of a psychological kind. This is probably due to the kind of people they choose to ordain, which, as I have seem mentioned in other threads, is a trend that has started in the 90s. 
    I think that the hero mindset of Bp. Fellay is a good example. He thinks that he can fix the conciliar church from within. I think that he truly believes it, Very faulty reasoning. As his "party" runs the show, we get some peculiar people being chosen as district superiors and priors.


    Offline songbird

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  • I agree with your last sentences regarding Bishop Fellay, G. Berto

    Offline ByzCat3000

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  • I'm still majorly blackpilled about everyone's responses to the Covid thing.  But the SSPX wasn't as bad as most.  Even on Long Island they always at least offered us Holy Communion, confession, etc.