Author Topic: Bishop Mark Pivarunas CMRI and SSPX "are one"? (Read 5896 times)

mobius · « **on:** October 13, 2013, 02:23:15 PM »

Please tell me he did not mean this, please....

1993 Consecration by Bishop Pivarunas

MyrnaM · « **Reply #1 on:** October 13, 2013, 02:53:28 PM »

And your problem is...........?

mobius · « **Reply #2 on:** October 13, 2013, 03:07:26 PM »

Well if Pope Francis who is doing crazy things is in communion with the SSPX, then how is the CMRI and SSPX one and the same church? After all is not in our SSPX chapels the name of Francis mentioned in the canon? Hello?

Mabel · « **Reply #3 on:** October 13, 2013, 03:52:58 PM »

Quote from: mobius

Well if Pope Francis who is doing crazy things is in communion with the SSPX, then how is the CMRI and SSPX one and the same church? After all is not in our SSPX chapels the name of Francis mentioned in the canon? Hello?

So you think CMRI should deny communion to any Catholic who attends an SSPX mass or one where Francis is named in the canon?

Ambrose · « **Reply #4 on:** October 13, 2013, 04:07:42 PM »

Quote from: mobius

Well if Pope Francis who is doing crazy things is in communion with the SSPX, then how is the CMRI and SSPX one and the same church? After all is not in our SSPX chapels the name of Francis mentioned in the canon? Hello?

The naming of the antipope in the canon does not mean that the priest or those who participate in the mass are not Catholic.

The antipope is an undeclared heretic.

Malleus 01 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 13, 2013, 04:51:31 PM »

Catholicism is one. There may be different approaches to Heresy and there may be Heretics who are not yet condemned as formal Heretics , but wherever the Body and Blood of Our Lord is - we are one.

Lift up from the tangible to the spiritual for a moment and understand.

mobius · « **Reply #6 on:** October 13, 2013, 08:12:56 PM »

This sounds like the old Brand Theory raising its ugly head again...I thought Anglicanism was a dead dog....

Capt McQuigg · « **Reply #7 on:** October 13, 2013, 09:03:36 PM »

I guess all is well? :cool:

Hobbledehoy · « **Reply #8 on:** October 13, 2013, 09:03:53 PM »

mobius and those of like mind fit the following description:

Ambrose · « **Reply #9 on:** October 13, 2013, 11:03:54 PM »

Quote from: Hermenegild

The SSPX are in communion with Francis.

The CMRI are in communion with the SSPX.

Ergo, the CMRI are in communion with Francis!

The syllogism fails, as all Catholics are bound to remain in communion with each other. The CMRI have severed themselves from communion with Francis, but remain in communion with Catholics who still believe in his claim to the papacy.

During the Western schism, Catholics adhered to various antipopes, but remained Catholic as they did so believing they were following the true pope. Catholics never severed themselves from other Catholics during this time.

If Francis were a declared heretic, all would be bound to cut off communion with him.

mobius · « **Reply #10 on:** October 13, 2013, 11:26:27 PM »

So your saying that to go to the New Mass is 1.) ok ; 2.) SSPX, ok ; 3.) CMRI, ok ; 4.) Stay Home, ok ; why? Because "no one" can declare Pope Francis a "heretic"? And we are all in communion with each other as Bishop Pivarunas says?

Does some have to declare to a person that is guilty of mortal sin that it is a mortal sin, for it to be a mortal sin?

Ambrose · « **Reply #11 on:** October 13, 2013, 11:38:28 PM »

Quote from: mobius

So your saying that to go to the New Mass is 1.) ok ; 2.) SSPX, ok ; 3.) CMRI, ok ; 4.) Stay Home, ok ; why? Because "no one" can declare Pope Francis a "heretic"? And we are all in communion with each other as Bishop Pivarunas says?

Does some have to declare to a person guilty of mortal sin when they commit a mortal sin, for it to be a mortal sin?

I never said it was "ok" to go to the Novus Ordo. There is no sin, however, if the Catholic remains unaware or unconvinced of its true status.

Catholics have the right to partake of the sacraments and may approach clergy to receive them, even vagus clergy. Catholics are not bound to receive sacraments from clergy that have not received approved training and approval for ordination, and a mission to be their priest from the lawful authority of the Church.

Only the pope can declare Francis a heretic. Until then, we as individuals may see this fact, but no one is bound to this fact, unless he is morally certain of it.

All Catholics remain in communion with each other. To withdraw communion from other Catholics is schism.

Mortal sin does not effect your membership in the Church, heresy does.

mobius · « **Reply #12 on:** October 14, 2013, 01:33:23 AM »

I thought Heresy was a Mortal Sin?

All of these groups cannot be right, correct, and valid. Only one or actually, none.

You do not need someone to declare your a Heretic if you fit the category.

So I guess if you can go to people you think are "not" heretics (e.g. Francis, CMRI, SSPX, etc.), then you might as well stay home or go to a Greek Schismatic rite and participate...what's the difference? Heresy is Heresy. No matter where it comes from.

All groups "cannot" be Catholics and in the "same" Church. Is Christ divided Mark 3:25 ?

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #13 on:** October 14, 2013, 02:30:25 AM »

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: mobius
So you're saying that to go to the New Mass is 1.) ok ; 2.) SSPX, ok ; 3.) CMRI, ok ; 4.) Stay Home, ok ; why? Because "no one" can declare Pope Francis a "heretic"? And we are all in communion with each other as Bishop Pivarunas says?

Does some have to declare to a person guilty of mortal sin when they commit a mortal sin, for it to be a mortal sin?

I never said it was "ok" to go to the Novus Ordo. There is no sin, however, if the Catholic remains unaware or unconvinced of its true status.

Catholics have the right to partake of the sacraments and may approach clergy to receive them, even vagus clergy. Catholics are not bound to receive sacraments from clergy that have not received approved training and approval for ordination, and a mission to be their priest from the lawful authority of the Church.

Only the pope can declare Francis a heretic. Until then, we as individuals may see this fact, but no one is bound to this fact, unless he is morally certain of it.

All Catholics remain in communion with each other. To withdraw communion from other Catholics is schism.

Mortal sin does not effect your membership in the Church, heresy does.

I find it rather queer that someone who alludes to principles such
as this can suddenly collapse into apoplexy over one imaginative
theological speculation because he insists on it's 'doctrinal' content.

If you were consistent, you'd admit that sedevacantism is a 'dogma
of the faith'. But then you'd be inconsistent because that would
not be the same thing as saying that no one but a true pope can
judge the pope, as you've said right here, above. Maybe what
you need is a good dose of the hermeneutic of continuity, then
it would all work out for you just as it is! Sound pretty good yet?

ThomisticPhilosopher · « **Reply #14 on:** October 14, 2013, 02:59:47 AM »

Quote from: mobius

So your saying that to go to the New Mass is 1.) ok ; 2.) SSPX, ok ; 3.) CMRI, ok ; 4.) Stay Home, ok ; why? Because "no one" can declare Pope Francis a "heretic"? And we are all in communion with each other as Bishop Pivarunas says?

Does some have to declare to a person that is guilty of mortal sin that it is a mortal sin, for it to be a mortal sin?

No one is saying that, or even inferring a suggestion towards the direction your implying. Quit putting words into other people's mouth.

Neither you or anyone can "declare him" as a heretic, he is already been judged by God. To imply that you would juridically declare him to be a heretic, it would imply that you are the superior of a Pope as only superiors are capable of making a legal declaration on matter's such as this. Which is why St. Bellarmine went over this matter pretty well, since he already stands condemned by his own deeds/words. The only difference is that the SSPX and other people who are currently erring in that matter will have to see, what we see by the eyes of faith (spiritual reality). Any other way of looking at this problem like how you are suggesting is condemned anathematized heresy of Conciliarism (the evil you were trying to avoid in the first place, the irony huh!?).

You don't know the state of someone else's soul, unless you are able to read heart's. Now if someone has publicly committed a crime that in the external forum is mortally sinful, sure you can be able to rebuke them about that.

Going to the New mass is false worship, it is simply a no no with the SSPX. They never recommend that, attending mass with the SSPX is doable if they are the only one in the area. CMRI would be fine to attend also, and staying at home would depend on the situation. Once again this is something that you need to discern within your particular circuмstances. Suppose that you are attending a mass with a SSPX that holds positions that are Novus Ordo, i.e. does not hold the SSPX positions. Then it would be licit to not attend where they might be more FSSP then SSPX. Just use your common sense, that's all. Just take every particular case on an individual level, don't assume anything. Simply talk to your local priest, and discern. Wish you the best, God Bless.