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Author Topic: Bishop Daniel Dolan  (Read 3282 times)

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Offline Todd The Trad

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Bishop Daniel Dolan
« on: September 29, 2021, 09:19:32 PM »
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  • Hello again everyone. My name is Todd and I've been a member here for a few days now. I am not a sedevacantist, although I certainly don't think it's impossible. For the time being I have decided to attend both a local ICKSP mass as well as an independent chapel. The priest at the independent chapel is a sedevacantist but doesn't require the laity to hold to it. My mother is a convert and has been attending weekly mass for almost a year now. I have spoken with the ICKSP priest about her being confirmed/receiving first communion several times but he continues to put it off and forget. He's very busy so I understand, but it's becoming a bit frustrating. What do you guys think of her receiving first communion/being confirmed by Bishop Dolan, the sede bishop from St. Gertrude the Great in Cincinnati, which is a few hours away from me? I've emailed and received a response from Bishop Dolan right away (which is refreshing) and he want's me to call him. I thought I'd ask for your advice before we talk. Thank you.

    :incense:
    Our Lady of La Salette, pray for us!


    Offline Jr1991

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    Re: Bishop Daniel Dolan
    « Reply #1 on: September 29, 2021, 09:49:58 PM »
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  • I would not have any issue receiving first communion and confirmation from Bp. Dolan.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Bishop Daniel Dolan
    « Reply #2 on: September 29, 2021, 09:52:28 PM »
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  • I second the above, Bp. Dolan would be perfectly fine
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Bishop Daniel Dolan
    « Reply #3 on: September 29, 2021, 10:07:55 PM »
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  • I would not recommend going to Bp. Dolan. There is a lot of evidence Archbishop Lefebvre only imposed one hand on him instead of two. I definitely suggest reading this article.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Daniel Dolan
    « Reply #4 on: September 29, 2021, 10:29:37 PM »
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  • I would not recommend going to Bp. Dolan. There is a lot of evidence Archbishop Lefebvre only imposed one hand on him instead of two. I definitely suggest reading this article.

    This nonsense has to stop ... another Kellyite smear.

    Eastern Rites only impose the right hand in the ordination of a priest, and the Roman Rite Missal for several centuries also indicated the right hand [dextram].  I believe that the confusion arose from the fact that at a priestly ordination the other priests in attendance at one point also place their hands on the ordinand's head.  But, again, a single right hand is all that's required for validity.

    To this day, the Kellyites conditionally confirm even those who have been confirmed by Bishop Williamson, because Bishop Williamson also had one hand imposed, as he was in the same ordination class in 1976.

    It's one thing for you to be constantly driven by scruples, and quite another to be spreading this stuff around.


    Offline moneil

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    Re: Bishop Daniel Dolan
    « Reply #5 on: September 30, 2021, 12:27:49 AM »
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  • One thing to consider ...

    It is my understanding that the position of the clergy at St. Gertrude the Great is that one SHOULD NEVER attend a una cuм Mass and that they will deny Holy Communion to someone that they know does attend una cuм Mass on occasion.

    Here is an article written by Father Anthony Cekada, who was on the staff at St. Gertrude's until he passed away on September 11, 2020: http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/B16inCanon.pdf.


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Bishop Daniel Dolan
    « Reply #6 on: September 30, 2021, 01:12:38 AM »
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  • This nonsense has to stop ... another Kellyite smear.

    Eastern Rites only impose the right hand in the ordination of a priest, and the Roman Rite Missal for several centuries also indicated the right hand [dextram].  I believe that the confusion arose from the fact that at a priestly ordination the other priests in attendance at one point also place their hands on the ordinand's head.  But, again, a single right hand is all that's required for validity.

    To this day, the Kellyites conditionally confirm even those who have been confirmed by Bishop Williamson, because Bishop Williamson also had one hand imposed, as he was in the same ordination class in 1976.

    It's one thing for you to be constantly driven by scruples, and quite another to be spreading this stuff around.

    I have to second what Ladislaus says here.

    It's one thing to be intransigent, to reject Modernism, to faithfully cling to Tradition. It's another thing to be simply WRONG and in error -- in as much error as the Modernists, albeit different errors.

    The Church has rules and regulations about these things. Many posters here are NOT educated theologians; they have never entered a Theology classroom for so much as an hour. Most of them can't even read Latin. That's the language the Pontificale -- the main liturgical book used by Bishops for things like Priestly Ordinations -- is written in. How many laypeople have access to one, AND can read & understand the Latin text?

    Nothing wrong with such laypersons; however they should always give due respect and deference to those who DO know what they're talking about. Such as Ladislaus in this case.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Daniel Dolan
    « Reply #7 on: September 30, 2021, 06:26:29 AM »
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  • I actually did research on this subject (one-handed ordination) in the early 1990s when it first became a hot topic.  Not only have the Eastern Rites always used one hand, but the Roman Rite also did for several centuries, and then switched back.  I went to The Catholic University of America library and found the original editions of the Pontificale Romanum from those times;  CUA had a huge collection of them going back a very long time, and I found where the right hand dextram was indicated.  Now, the article posted by Matto simply dismisses this as irrelevant by asserting that Pope Pius XII decided that it was two hands.  No, he was simply indicating the point at which the essential matter+form were combined to confect the Sacrament, which simply happened (in the current practice) to be two hands.  Nowhere does he state that the ordaining bishop must use two hands for validity.  This is effectively like saying that if a Roman Rite bishop used an Eastern Rite formula, it would be invalid ... which is total nonsense.

    To this day, Bishop Kelly holds all the Sacraments conferred by Bishop Williamson to be invalid .. and those priests ordained by Bishop Williamson.  That would basically render the entire Resistance line of bishops and priests invalid.  They re-confirm people who had been confirmed by Bishop Williamson (I don't even know if it's conditional).

    So, prior to Pius XII, there was some disagreement among theologians regarding the exact point at which the ordination took place, where the essential matter and form were combined and the priest became a priest, since there were a number of laying on of the hand or hands.  All he did was say "here's where it happens."  He was not making it so, but simply indicating where it has always happened in that Rite.

    So an analogy might be that the Roman Rite prescribes the use of unleavened bread for the Mass, whereas the Eastern Rite has long used leavened bread.  Now, for a Roman Rite priest to use unleavened bread unless out of necessity would be gravely illicit (if done intentionally), but it would nevertheless be valid.  There are many stories of priests in prisons and labor camps who used whatever bread they could get (usually leavened) to offer Mass in cαмρs.  They often also used very abbreviated consecrations ... since the Missale Romanum was not available there, obviously.  In the case of Archbishop Lefebvre in 1976, since when he did ordinations all by himself in those days, he would go from ordinations to the sub diaconate one day to ordinations to the diaconate the next and finally ordination to the priesthood, so it was probably done out of habit because the previous ordinations were done with just one hand.  So there was no sin there either even if he was objectively out of compliance with the rubrics.  Priests mess up all the time, unintentionally, when they get confused by the rubrics.


    Offline Puzzle

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    Re: Bishop Daniel Dolan
    « Reply #8 on: September 30, 2021, 07:15:19 AM »
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  • Hello again everyone. My name is Todd and I've been a member here for a few days now. I am not a sedevacantist, although I certainly don't think it's impossible. For the time being I have decided to attend both a local ICKSP mass as well as an independent chapel. The priest at the independent chapel is a sedevacantist but doesn't require the laity to hold to it. My mother is a convert and has been attending weekly mass for almost a year now. I have spoken with the ICKSP priest about her being confirmed/receiving first communion several times but he continues to put it off and forget. He's very busy so I understand, but it's becoming a bit frustrating. What do you guys think of her receiving first communion/being confirmed by Bishop Dolan, the sede bishop from St. Gertrude the Great in Cincinnati, which is a few hours away from me? I've emailed and received a response from Bishop Dolan right away (which is refreshing) and he want's me to call him. I thought I'd ask for your advice before we talk. Thank you.

    :incense:
    Bishop Dolan has been great to us, too, his "online congregation", as we often watch his live mass online.

    We are not sedevecanti. 

    I would not hesitate in the least to receive any sacrament from Bishop Dolan, and I would be grateful that God sent a path for the sacraments.

    Offline Puzzle

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    Re: Bishop Daniel Dolan
    « Reply #9 on: September 30, 2021, 07:22:44 AM »
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  • One thing to consider ...

    It is my understanding that the position of the clergy at St. Gertrude the Great is that one SHOULD NEVER attend a una cuм Mass and that they will deny Holy Communion to someone that they know does attend a una cuм Mass on occasion.

    Here is an article written by Father Anthony Cekada, who was on the staff at St. Gertrude's until he passed away on September 11, 2020: http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/B16inCanon.pdf.
    Wrong.
    Fr. Cekada's actions and beliefs did not represent the actions and beliefs of Bishop Dolan.  In fact, when Bishop Dolan delegated Fr. Cekada to reply to an email from me, Bishop Dolan replied also, and profusely apologized to me for Fr. Cekada's harshness and extrapolation.  Bishop Dolan knew we were not sedevecanti.  

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Daniel Dolan
    « Reply #10 on: September 30, 2021, 08:06:42 AM »
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  • Wrong.
    Fr. Cekada's actions and beliefs did not represent the actions and beliefs of Bishop Dolan.  In fact, when Bishop Dolan delegated Fr. Cekada to reply to an email from me, Bishop Dolan replied also, and profusely apologized to me for Fr. Cekada's harshness and extrapolation.  Bishop Dolan knew we were not sedevecanti. 

    Yes, I think that Fr. Cekada was more aligned with Bishop Sanborn in terms of dogmatic sedevacantism even though he happened to have his home base with Bishop Dolan.  Given that Bishop Dolan isn't a dogmatic sedevacantism, it does speak to his being tolerant toward a wider range of opinions.


    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Bishop Daniel Dolan
    « Reply #11 on: September 30, 2021, 09:51:30 AM »
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  • Yes, I think that Fr. Cekada was more aligned with Bishop Sanborn in terms of dogmatic sedevacantism even though he happened to have his home base with Bishop Dolan.  Given that Bishop Dolan isn't a dogmatic sedevacantism, it does speak to his being tolerant toward a wider range of opinions.
    Didn't Sanborn and Dolan split from each other? I had heard this but I am not sure. It would make sense as Fr. Depositing didn't post about Dolan's episcopal consecration nor did Sanborn or Selway serve as co-consecrators.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Daniel Dolan
    « Reply #12 on: September 30, 2021, 12:16:27 PM »
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  • Didn't Sanborn and Dolan split from each other? I had heard this but I am not sure. It would make sense as Fr. Depositing didn't post about Dolan's episcopal consecration nor did Sanborn or Selway serve as co-consecrators.

    When I knew then-Father Sanborn, I didn't get the impression that he had anything against then-Father Dolan.  It's just that they seemed to remain aloof from one another.  Father Cekada, while stationed with Father Dolan, regularly visited Father Sanborn's seminary as well ... almost as if he were some bridge or go-between.  Others may know differently.

    There's also some interesting speculation on the rumor mill about some major falling out between Father Jenkins and the Bishop Kelly camp, where some nuns of Father Kelly's group who had helped teach at Father Jenkins' school just up and left based on some unknown dispute.  When people from Fr. Jenkins' chapels seek confirmation, they have to travel to Roundtop because their bishops won't travel for some reason (initially it was objections to the body scanners by the TSA), but I suspect that there's more.  It's amazing to me that someone like Father Jenkins would not have been consecrated a bishop, whereas those young men with Bishop Kelly were consecrated.  To remedy the travel problem, all Bishop Kelly would have to do would be to consecrate Fr. Jenkins.  So there's definitely some tension there that nobody in those circles seems to have real direct knowledge of.  This is the extent of what I hear from my mother, who goes to Fr. Jenkins' chapel in Parma, OH ... mostly because she doesn't feel safe driving on the highway to Father Carley's chapel in Akron, as she's getting up there in years.  With that said, she does really like Father Jenkins and Fathers Greenwell and Baumberger.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Bishop Daniel Dolan
    « Reply #13 on: September 30, 2021, 04:11:53 PM »
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  • Yes, I think that Fr. Cekada was more aligned with Bishop Sanborn in terms of dogmatic sedevacantism even though he happened to have his home base with Bishop Dolan.  Given that Bishop Dolan isn't a dogmatic sedevacantism, it does speak to his being tolerant toward a wider range of opinions.
    Doesn't Bp. Sanborn and his priests still hold to sedeprivationism (Cassiciacuм) while Fr. Cekada was a "totalist" sedevacantist? I saw this distinction in the combox on NOW a while back. And I find it kind of strange given how both Sanborn and Cekada are/were such hardliners about the issue, which still retaining differing stances on the apparent vacancy.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Bishop Daniel Dolan
    « Reply #14 on: September 30, 2021, 08:59:28 PM »
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  • My father and I (along with my mother) went to Mass at SGG when we were traveling in the area.  My father liked him very much.  He's an excellent homilist.  Incidentally, my father's mother's name was Gertrude.  My father had definite sede leanings, but he always said theology wasn't his thing, he didn't delve into such matters, he'd probably have just told you "you have to be Catholic to be Pope", and left it at that.

    In that I am not a sedevacantist (I have my doubts), I cannot assist at non una cuм Masses and retain the integrity of my decision.  At one time, I could and did, but I finally concluded that I couldn't sit on the fence and had to decide, solely for myself and my own "conscience", either yea or nay, and act accordingly.  ("Conscience" isn't the right word, I don't approach it so much as a matter of sin, of right and wrong, maybe "judgment" would be more like it.)

    I have nothing against Bishop Dolan or any other sedevacantist bishops or priests, but as I said, it's a matter of either yea or nay, and then acting accordingly.  Likewise, if I were a sedevacantist, I could not assist at una cuм Masses either.  In my mind, it cuts both ways.

    In no way do I dogmatize about this.  I could be wrong.