Author Topic: Biblical Commission Of 1909 (Read 12585 times)

SJB · « **Reply #75 on:** December 16, 2013, 05:24:24 PM »

Quote from: icterus

Quit being coy. It's not attractive.

Quote from: Heresy, CE 1908

St. Thomas (II-II:11:1) defines heresy: "a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas". The right Christian faith consists in giving one's voluntary assent to Christ in all that truly belongs to His teaching. There are, therefore, two ways of deviating from Christianity: the one by refusing to believe in Christ Himself, which is the way of infidelity, common to Pagans and Jews; the other by restricting belief to certain points of Christ's doctrine selected and fashioned at pleasure, which is the way of heretics. The subject-matter of both faith and heresy is, therefore, the deposit of the faith, that is, the sum total of truths revealed in Scripture and Tradition as proposed to our belief by the Church. The believer accepts the whole deposit as proposed by the Church; the heretic accepts only such parts of it as commend themselves to his own approval.

[...]

In fact the long list of heresiarchs contains the name of only one who came to resipiscence: Berengarius.

Does it matter which one you corrupt?

icterus · « **Reply #76 on:** December 16, 2013, 05:32:41 PM »

I was trying to comment substantively on the article Soldier linked. That was just not going to be allowed here, was it.

SJB · « **Reply #77 on:** December 17, 2013, 11:02:25 AM »

Quote from: icterus

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When one dogma is "overturned," it matters little which ones remain untouched.

Nonsense statement. Nothing in your sentence has any content. Dogmas cannot be overturned. Ergo, 'when' in your statement is a hypothetical, a condition that cannot exist and which mankind has no experience with, and therefore to say anything about such a condition is fatuous.

If you mean to say "In the mind of the heretic" then again, nonsense. You have no idea how disbelieving one dogma as opposed to another will affect the heretic. If disbelieving in the resurrection, he may never again be convinced of it. If disbelieving in the Trinity, he may stumble across De Trinitas in the library and become re-converted. Who knows. Quit typing nonsense.

The denial of one dogma puts one outside the Church, which should strike fear into the heart of a Catholic. You seem to think one can merely stumble across something and become re-converted.

This is why I say you have no Catholic sense.

icterus · « **Reply #78 on:** December 17, 2013, 12:14:52 PM »

Quote

The denial of one dogma puts one outside the Church, which should strike fear into the heart of a Catholic. You seem to think one can merely stumble across something and become re-converted.

Of course one can be reconciled to the Church, even after manifest heresy.

This is what makes me think you have a screw loose.

icterus · « **Reply #79 on:** December 17, 2013, 12:16:17 PM »

Oh, and this thread is apparently now just for SJB's weird nit-pickings. I'll put up with that for about 2 more posts, then I'm leaving it. If Matthew allows, I'd like to post a fresh thread specifically about human evolution.

SoldierOfChrist · « **Reply #80 on:** December 17, 2013, 12:45:27 PM »

Quote from: icterus

Quote
The denial of one dogma puts one outside the Church, which should strike fear into the heart of a Catholic. You seem to think one can merely stumble across something and become re-converted.

Of course one can be reconciled to the Church, even after manifest heresy.

This is what makes me think you have a screw loose.

I think that this brings us to a central point. Faith is a supernatural Gift from God. It is Knowledge of Him. It is not the same thing as belief, which would imply arrival at a conclusion based on evidence and argument. As Faith is a Gift, we cannot get It back just by seeing better evidence or a better argument of His Existence. You could put the best logical proof imaginable in front of a person who has no Faith. They might agree with you and believe that God exists, but they will still be filled with doubt, as they have no supernatural Knowledge of Him. The only way for them to get the Gift back, is for God to give It back to them.

icterus · « **Reply #81 on:** December 17, 2013, 04:07:15 PM »

You oversimplify a mystery of the faith.

"Seek and ye shall find"

Remember, the Church is not Calvinist, and has remained on the horns of the debate for over a thousand years, never veering too far in that direction, or toward pelagianism.

So, yes, even after being heretical, a person may be reconciled to the faith if they recant, and this has happened.

Now...will everyone quit picking at one small issue that was not my point at all? You asked for a critique of your linked article. I took the time to do that. If you have lost interest, at least let me know so I can move on. Thx.

SJB · « **Reply #82 on:** December 17, 2013, 05:47:41 PM »

Quote from: icterus

Quote
The denial of one dogma puts one outside the Church, which should strike fear into the heart of a Catholic. You seem to think one can merely stumble across something and become re-converted.

Of course one can be reconciled to the Church, even after manifest heresy.

This is what makes me think you have a screw loose.

I never said a true heretic couldn't repent and be reconciled to the Church. I do think this is very difficult, as the history of heretics suggests.

SoldierOfChrist · « **Reply #83 on:** December 17, 2013, 11:32:21 PM »

Quote from: icterus

You oversimplify a mystery of the faith.

"Seek and ye shall find"

Remember, the Church is not Calvinist, and has remained on the horns of the debate for over a thousand years, never veering too far in that direction, or toward pelagianism.

So, yes, even after being heretical, a person may be reconciled to the faith if they recant, and this has happened.

Now...will everyone quit picking at one small issue that was not my point at all? You asked for a critique of your linked article. I took the time to do that. If you have lost interest, at least let me know so I can move on. Thx.

Sorry to leave you hanging Icterus. I won't be available tomorrow at all, but I will respond to your critique on Thursday if that works for you.

roscoe · « **Reply #84 on:** December 18, 2013, 12:47:12 AM »

I miss SS :smoke-pot:

icterus · « **Reply #85 on:** December 18, 2013, 07:52:33 AM »

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I never said a true heretic couldn't repent and be reconciled to the Church. I do think this is very difficult, as the history of heretics suggests.

So why are you wasting my time? I suggest that if you don't care about a real critique of the Johnson article, or have anything further to say about the PBC, get out.

Quote

Some ignorantly deny Him, or rather have been denied by Him, being the advocates of death rather than of the truth. These persons neither have the prophets persuaded, nor the law of Moses, nor the Gospel even to this day, nor the sufferings we have individually endured. For they think also the same thing regarding us. For what does any one profit me, if he commends me, but blasphemes my Lord, not confessing that He was [truly] possessed of a body? But he who does not acknowledge this, has in fact altogether denied Him, being enveloped in death. I have not, however, thought good to write the names of such persons, inasmuch as they are unbelievers. Yea, far be it from me to make any mention of them, until they repent and return to [a true belief in] Christ's passion, which is our resurrection. - St. Ignatius of Antioch.

SJB · « **Reply #86 on:** December 18, 2013, 09:19:08 AM »

Quote from: icterus

Quote
I never said a true heretic couldn't repent and be reconciled to the Church. I do think this is very difficult, as the history of heretics suggests.

So why are you wasting my time? I suggest that if you don't care about a real critique of the Johnson article, or have anything further to say about the PBC, get out.

Quote
Some ignorantly deny Him, or rather have been denied by Him, being the advocates of death rather than of the truth. These persons neither have the prophets persuaded, nor the law of Moses, nor the Gospel even to this day, nor the sufferings we have individually endured. For they think also the same thing regarding us. For what does any one profit me, if he commends me, but blasphemes my Lord, not confessing that He was [truly] possessed of a body? But he who does not acknowledge this, has in fact altogether denied Him, being enveloped in death. I have not, however, thought good to write the names of such persons, inasmuch as they are unbelievers. Yea, far be it from me to make any mention of them, until they repent and return to [a true belief in] Christ's passion, which is our resurrection. - St. Ignatius of Antioch.

You've been wasting everybody's time with these types of responses. I'm not interested in "the Johnson article," I was commenting on your lack of a Catholic sense.

icterus · « **Reply #87 on:** December 18, 2013, 03:53:39 PM »

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I was commenting on your lack of a Catholic sense.

Going ALL the way back...no one here is denying any dogmas of the faith. The author in question (the one you don't care to discuss) made claims about it. I said they were silly. I still think they're silly. I think you get confused easily and don't have much of substance to say. You seem fascinated by me, one can only wonder why.

SJB · « **Reply #88 on:** December 18, 2013, 09:03:32 PM »

Quote from: icterus

Quote
I was commenting on your lack of a Catholic sense.

Going ALL the way back...no one here is denying any dogmas of the faith. The author in question (the one you don't care to discuss) made claims about it. I said they were silly. I still think they're silly. I think you get confused easily and don't have much of substance to say. You seem fascinated by me, one can only wonder why.

Your response is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. The Catholic Faith isn't about simply never denying "a dogma of the faith" when it is clear that you believe the only truths are those who have been the subject of a solemn definition.

icterus · « **Reply #89 on:** December 19, 2013, 12:01:14 PM »

This is going nowhere. You're not even reading what I'm posting...that or your comprehension is abysmal.