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Author Topic: Biblical Commission Of 1909  (Read 8310 times)

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Offline SoldierOfChrist

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« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2013, 04:23:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: icterus
    So, go read up on the Madeira mice.  Your free choice of site.  I suggest 'nature', but that requires a paid subscription.

    And then, take your own advice about telling me to take my own advice.  


    (and see my signature.  your ignorance is not my problem)


    (edit:  Also, chromosomal multiplication or fusion is not the only form of speciation event.  Some types of animals, like above-mentioned mice, appear to do this with high frequency.  Others, very rarely.)


    This does not qualify as proof.  What you've presented here has been presumed by scientists to have taken place over the course of the last 500 years.  The groups are all separated from one another, which does not satisfy my request.  

    Quote
    Where is the observational evidence of a group of organisms at this step along the evolutionary ladder.


    What you've provided is six groups of organisms which are presumed to have already moved beyond this step.  So it does not qualify as proof.  It is only speculation.  According to their theory, there should have been some point throughout the last 500 years, during which, one of those isolated groups, would have shown a population with a mixed number of chromosomes.  Unfortunately for the theory, there remains no known group as what I've described.  Perhaps this really did happen over the last 500 years, but the proof is still non-existent.  What you've got is six distinct groups of geographically isolated organisms, coupled with speculation on how that came to be the case.  Are there any other examples that you can provide?


    Offline icterus

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    « Reply #31 on: December 12, 2013, 04:36:28 PM »
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  • No, that's not what you have.

    You have one species, delivered to a geographically isolated area 500 years ago.  That species still exists on the mainland.

    In the isolated area, you have 5 or 6 new species showing exactly the kind of chromosomal variations you asked for, all on the island.  They are all, on the island.  They are mixed, hence the dispute about how many species are actually represented.  This is ongoing.

    Examples, made to order, don't get any better than that.  

    You specifically asked about chromosomal changes, to show you one ongoing specifically requires a species with instability in this area.  Like mice.  A perfect natural laboratory of mice.  Madeira.

    If you want other types of genetic speciation, look at Ensatina salamanders, or pizzly bears.  (yes, Pizzly.)

    If you want a behaviorally generated genetic speciation event, look at apple maggot flies, or American Meadowlarks and their separation into Eastern and Western species.  

    But, I suspect you don't want anything actually going on in the natural world.  Let me know.  

     



    Offline Nishant

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    « Reply #32 on: December 13, 2013, 08:23:08 AM »
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  • I am a convinced geocentrist and believe the earth is less than 10000 years old. But the question of the theological status of these points is still not as simple as one would like.

    In my view, the Holy Office decree on Geocentrism, so far as the doctrinal decision in it is concerned, is well and truly irreformable. It is unanimously taught by theologians that although a practical decision (such as banning this or that book) of the Holy Office may be reversed, a doctrinal judgment contained therein is irreformable and subsequently enjoys the appropriate divine protection and requires religious assent.

    Also, I do not see how this canon "If anyone does not confess that the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, were produced, according to their whole substance, out of nothing by God ... let him be anathema" is compatible at least with some specific forms of theistic evolution which does deny precisely this.

    But then again it is clear that both the cited 1909 decision and Pope Pius XII allow free speculation on some points, so person can't be called non-Catholic who hold the contrary opinion within the prescribed bounds the Church permits.

    In my opinion, the Church allows free discussion on some matters even when She knows for certain what is true and what is false when, owing to human weakness, it is not easily shown from reason alone that the contrary view is false.

    This explains Her permitting speculation both on heliocentrism and evolution. She did not want to require all Her faithful to profess it at a time when from reason alone geocentrism seemed very difficult to defend.

    St. Augustine says if we know something to be true from the faith, we should absolutely hold and confess it, but if we are unable to answer the objections of unbelievers, then we should strive with all our skill and understanding to do so. We may fail in this, but we should not fail in knowing what is the truth from the faith, and professing it.

    Anyway, on science and religion or reason and faith in particular, the relevant canons and passages from the Church's teaching to guide our discussion are,

    Quote
    Hence all faithful Christians are forbidden to defend as the legitimate conclusions of science those opinions which are known to be contrary to the doctrine of faith, particularly if they have been condemned by the Church; and furthermore they are absolutely bound to hold them to be errors which wear the deceptive appearance of truth ...

    If anyone says that the condition of the faithful and those who have not yet attained to the only true faith is alike, so that Catholics may have a just cause for calling in doubt, by suspending their assent, the faith which they have already received from the teaching of the Church, until they have completed a scientific demonstration of the credibility and truth of their faith: let him be anathema.

    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

    Offline icterus

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    « Reply #33 on: December 13, 2013, 10:00:30 AM »
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  • Nishant wrote:

    Quote
    Also, I do not see how this canon "If anyone does not confess that the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, were produced, according to their whole substance, out of nothing by God ... let him be anathema" is compatible at least with some specific forms of theistic evolution which does deny precisely this.


    You need to lay out your reasoning for this.  The word evolution is from the Latin evolvere, which I am told by Latinists means to unroll, as a scroll.  The basic idea behind theistic evolution is that God created over time, and continues to.  Nothing would exist if He did not will it, and nothing existed without His will.

    'Ex Nihilo' really concerns pre-existing matter.  A lesser sort of God, of the variety some pagans worshipped, might be imagined to fashion something magically within the universe.  By contrast, to denote the One, True, Omnipotent God, Christians note that He is the cause of everything, and nothing that exists was not caused by Him.  

    That is the common explanation.  

    Now, I'm not certain I would qualify as a 'theistic evolutionist'.  I'll epxlain.

    Among those who consent to an old Earth and the geologic record as it appears, and believe that God created and is the cause of everything, there are two main schools of thought.

    1.God's constant guidance of creation has left visible signs.

    2.God's constant guidance of creation has not left any visible signs.


    #1 is normally called "Intelligent design theory" in the United States.  #2 is normally called "Theistic evolution" in the United States.  Note that the usages are different in Europe, most notably at the Vatican.    

    Offline icterus

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    « Reply #34 on: December 13, 2013, 10:07:54 AM »
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    This explains Her permitting speculation both on heliocentrism and evolution. She did not want to require all Her faithful to profess it at a time when from reason alone geocentrism seemed very difficult to defend.


    Herein lies the problem.  

    Geocentrism is much, much less viable now than at any time in the past.  Bob Sungenis runs a cottage industry to convince people that the world is just about to come over to geocentrism (it's always 'just about' to) primarily by misquoting people, committing the very worst debate sins, and speaking about theoretical math which has no bearing on the issue.  

    Personally, I fear greatly for Bob Sungenis.  

    So, to 99% of humanity, and 100% of those humans whose job is to solve practical problems in planetary mechanics, geocentrism in completely indefensible.  Note that you, very reasonably, have said that the Church did not want the faithful to profess geocentrism when it seemed difficult to defend.  Back then, there was no NASA.  No computers.  No mars rovers.  No sputnik.  No geostationary satellites...

    The information about geocentrism upon which reason operates always comes from outside the Church.  It is scientific information.  

    Do you think the scientific concensus (that's what you are talking about, then and now) has really moved in any way at all toward geocentrism?  So, if it was a good idea then to suppress geocentrism, it's an even better idea now.


    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #35 on: December 13, 2013, 10:24:48 AM »
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    Geocentrism is much, much less viable now than at any time in the past.

    This is an opinion, right?
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #36 on: December 13, 2013, 10:48:48 AM »
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  • Quote
    2.God's constant guidance of creation has not left any visible signs.


    Quote from: Scheeben
    OUR KNOWLEDGE OF GOD.
    A.—NATURAL KNOWLEDGE OF GOD.

    SECT. 54. — Natural Knowledge of God considered generally.

    I. The Catholic doctrine on man's natural knowledge of God was defined by the Vatican Council: “Holy Mother Church doth hold and teach that God, the beginning and end of all things, can certainly be known from created things by the natural light of reason ; 'for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made' (Rom. i. 20). … If any one shall say that the One true God, our Creator and Lord, cannot be certainly known by the natural light of human reason from the things that are made, let him be anathema” (sess. iii., De Fide Catholica, ch. 2 and the corresponding can. ii. I.).

    Holy Scripture, upon which the council's definition is based, teaches the same doctrine in many passages.

    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline SoldierOfChrist

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    « Reply #37 on: December 13, 2013, 02:20:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: icterus
    No, that's not what you have.

    You have one species, delivered to a geographically isolated area 500 years ago.  That species still exists on the mainland.

    In the isolated area, you have 5 or 6 new species showing exactly the kind of chromosomal variations you asked for, all on the island.  They are all, on the island.  They are mixed, hence the dispute about how many species are actually represented.  This is ongoing.

    Examples, made to order, don't get any better than that.  

    You specifically asked about chromosomal changes, to show you one ongoing specifically requires a species with instability in this area.  Like mice.  A perfect natural laboratory of mice.  Madeira.

    If you want other types of genetic speciation, look at Ensatina salamanders, or pizzly bears.  (yes, Pizzly.)

    If you want a behaviorally generated genetic speciation event, look at apple maggot flies, or American Meadowlarks and their separation into Eastern and Western species.  

    But, I suspect you don't want anything actually going on in the natural world.  Let me know.  

     



    I do appreciate your providing this list of examples.  As you suspected, I was actually looking for data collected outside of nature; in a laboratory to be specific.  These samples taken from nature, have no control imposed on them, and can therefore be explained by a vast array of diverse hypotheses, none of which can be succinctly proven.  In order to keep this discussion focused, I will stick to the example of the madeira mice, reported in 2000.  Since the discovery of these mice, there has been a great amount of research conducted, and I will use this to illustrate my point, which is not that I can prove Darwin's theory of evolution to be false, but that it cannot be proven to be true, using evidence such as what you've provided.

    Quote from: Evolution rampant: house mice on Madeira
    The original report of chromosomal races speculated that the differentiation had arisen from drift in isolates in the steep valleys radiating from the old volcanoes, which rise to a height of 1862 m (Britton-Davidian et al. 1990, elaborated in Britton-Davidian et al. 2005) – a suggestion reminiscent of that made by Henry Crampton to account for differentiation in Partula populations, which he studied for almost 50 years on the Society Island of Moorea, a hypothesis comprehensively demolished by Johnson et al. (1993). More detailed studies of the Madeiran mice, extending to allozyme and mtDNA analyses, indicated no lack of diversity, implying that the colonization was by a large number of founders or that there had been more than one colonizing event (Gündüz et al. 2001; Britton-Davidian et al. 2007). The authors favoured the latter explanation, not least because the island mice allozyme comparisons showed them to be more closely related to animals from their likely source on mainland Portugal, while their mtDNA haplotypes suggested immigrants from northern Europe.

    This conclusion is strengthened by a paper in this issue (Förster et al. 2009). Previous comparisons largely lacked information about variation in the genomes of Portuguese mainland mice; they were based on only nine mice from central Portugal. This new study fills this gap with 76 animals caught at 14 sites in Portugal, mainly from ports which had historical links with Madeira (Fig. 1), allowing more precise comparisons with samples from Madeira and its neighbouring island of Porto Santo. The authors found four mitochondrial (D-loop) lineages in the mainland animals, one of which dominates. The diversity of the samples in Portugal was similar to that found elsewhere (in Italy, Greece and Turkey). They concluded that there were probably multiple colonizations into Portugal, with a most likely common ancestor from the eastern Mediterranean area. Estimates of expansion time concur with zooarchaeological findings that mice reached the Iberian Peninsula at least 2500 years ago.
    image

    Figure 1.  Portuguese house mice, such as this one caught and photographed in Vila Franca de Xira, Portugal, have apparently contributed substantial nuclear, but not mitochondrial variation to house mouse populations in Madeira. Photo credit: Sofia Gabriel.

    The island mice are very different. Only one animal had a haplotype of the dominant Portuguese clade; 99% of the mice had sequences common in Denmark, Sweden and Germany, more than half having haplotypes identical with those found in northern Europe. Estimates of the time of expansion of the Madeiran population are imprecise, but suggest a date more than 900 years ago, much earlier than 1419 ad, the traditional date of discovery of Madeira by Portuguese voyagers. However, the previous finding that the nuclear genome of the island mice is much more like the Portuguese variation than north European complicates this picture (Britton-Davidian et al. 2007). Förster et al. suggest that it might be explained by the asymmetric spread of nuclear genes following introduction of mice from Portugal into an already established ‘north European’ population, along the lines of the situation uncovered by Jones et al. (1995) in an introduction experiment on the Isle of May (Scotland).


    So what you have here, originally presumed to have been a single migration event of a homogeneous group of mice, has been demonstrably shown to have been multiple migrations spanning from 500 BC until the present.  One of those migrations included mice from portugal, and you now have a genetic mixed bag of mice, which are all related to the mice from Portugal, and the mice from Italy, Greece, Turkey, Denmark, Sweden, and Germany.  Meanwhile, the original hypothesis of a single migration event of mice, self differentiating and changing their number of chromosomes over the course of the past 500 years has probably been printed and reprinted in biology textbooks, as proof of speciation, and most likely still remains in those textbooks, without being tempered by the most recent research, which proves that this was a vast array of species, which came here, over the course of multiple migrations, from various parts of Europe.

    This is why we can't put blind faith in scientists who have no Faith in God.  I agree with you that there is no reason for Catholics to put issues like this on the front burner.  Prayer, study, and penance are what we do.  By the same token, we are under no obligation to blindly accept the "findings" of scientists with clear bias against a supernatural explanation of our world.


    Offline icterus

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    « Reply #38 on: December 13, 2013, 02:26:19 PM »
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  • Quote
    SECT. 54. — Natural Knowledge of God considered generally.

    I. The Catholic doctrine on man's natural knowledge of God was defined by the Vatican Council: “Holy Mother Church doth hold and teach that God, the beginning and end of all things, can certainly be known from created things by the natural light of reason ; 'for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made' (Rom. i. 20). … If any one shall say that the One true God, our Creator and Lord, cannot be certainly known by the natural light of human reason from the things that are made, let him be anathema” (sess. iii., De Fide Catholica, ch. 2 and the corresponding can. ii. I.).


    Yes, but that doesn't rule on the issue I mentioned.  God can be known from the orderly universe, as you referenced, but not in an infinite number of ways.  It is the ways that matter.  

    Consider that although we have an assurance that God is the cause of all things, many of those things will not avail us if we attempt to use them to prove God's existence.  

    This is the meat of the question 'does the universe run according to the laws of nature' or not.      

    Offline icterus

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    « Reply #39 on: December 13, 2013, 02:45:27 PM »
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  • Soldier -  Excellent work.  I will not overlook your post.  And, I think you and I will find mostly common ground.  Pleas be patient with me, I want to concentrate on the geocentrism thread, but will not forget you.  thanks.

    Offline icterus

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    « Reply #40 on: December 13, 2013, 02:55:42 PM »
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  • Quote
    Quote:
    Geocentrism is much, much less viable now than at any time in the past.


    Quote
    This is an opinion, right?



    Is it?  That's the point.  I was responding to a post that claimed:

    Quote
    In my opinion, the Church allows free discussion on some matters even when She knows for certain what is true and what is false when, owing to human weakness, it is not easily shown from reason alone that the contrary view is false.


    So, what is being said here?  That the Church allows free discussion on matters when it is not easily shown from reason alone which is the right teaching.

    Well, we're talking about geocentrism in that post, and perhaps tangentially evolution...both ideas came from outside the Church, as matters of secular science.

    So, I think the principle the poster articulated could be very reasonably re-started (and omitting an un-neccessary phrase):

    Quote
    In my opinion, the Church allows free discussion on some matters even when She knows for certain what is true and what is false when, it is not easily shown from reason starting from the data provided by secular science, that the contrary view is false.


    Otherwise, what are we talking about?  Secular science provides the claim that geocentrism is false, and that life evolved.  If it's not easily shown by reason, that would be (and would only be) because the latest secular science does not support the claim.

    Well...if in the case of geocentrism we are talking about the latest secular science informing the reason, then we're still talking about the same thing.  

    In that case, yes, geocentrism is in much worse shape today than it was at any time in the past.  The measurements are the same, but to a higher degree of accuracy.  The mechanical proofs of flying spaceships exist now.  

    If this process the poster is describing is, in a nutshell, the prudential reaction of the Church to the state of secular science, then my point is proven.  Bob Sungenis is not 'secular science'.  Secular scientists are.  


    Offline icterus

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    « Reply #41 on: December 13, 2013, 03:08:22 PM »
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  • Soldier wrote:

    Quote
    So what you have here, originally presumed to have been a single migration event of a homogeneous group of mice, has been demonstrably shown to have been multiple migrations spanning from 500 BC until the present.  One of those migrations included mice from portugal, and you now have a genetic mixed bag of mice, which are all related to the mice from Portugal, and the mice from Italy, Greece, Turkey, Denmark, Sweden, and Germany.  Meanwhile, the original hypothesis of a single migration event of mice, self differentiating and changing their number of chromosomes over the course of the past 500 years has probably been printed and reprinted in biology textbooks, as proof of speciation, and most likely still remains in those textbooks, without being tempered by the most recent research, which proves that this was a vast array of species, which came here, over the course of multiple migrations, from various parts of Europe.


    And, in the 3rd approximation, you still have a group of mice with chromosomal variations that have arisen on Madeira.  The 99-2001 era textbooks appear to show a mono-genesis explanation from Portuguese mice, 2008-2011 textbooks show the various locations from which parent genotypes came.

    So, now I have a question for you.  Since there are chromosomal variations on Madeira not found on the mainland...what has changed with your added info?  

    I like your dilligence.  But, you'll need to explain why you're not majoring in minors.




    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #42 on: December 13, 2013, 04:59:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: icterus
    Quote
    SECT. 54. — Natural Knowledge of God considered generally.

    I. The Catholic doctrine on man's natural knowledge of God was defined by the Vatican Council: “Holy Mother Church doth hold and teach that God, the beginning and end of all things, can certainly be known from created things by the natural light of reason ; 'for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made' (Rom. i. 20). … If any one shall say that the One true God, our Creator and Lord, cannot be certainly known by the natural light of human reason from the things that are made, let him be anathema” (sess. iii., De Fide Catholica, ch. 2 and the corresponding can. ii. I.).


    Yes, but that doesn't rule on the issue I mentioned.  God can be known from the orderly universe, as you referenced, but not in an infinite number of ways.  It is the ways that matter.  

    Consider that although we have an assurance that God is the cause of all things, many of those things will not avail us if we attempt to use them to prove God's existence.  

    This is the meat of the question 'does the universe run according to the laws of nature' or not.      


    My point was that the below appears to be heretical.

    Quote
    2.God's constant guidance of creation has not left any visible signs.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline icterus

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    « Reply #43 on: December 13, 2013, 05:06:36 PM »
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  • Quote
    My point was that the below appears to be heretical.



    I don't see that.  In order for it to be heretical, the Church would have to mean 'Obvious, miraculous signs of God's active will intruding into the physical universe'.

    It seems to be the difference between 'the world declares the glory of God'

    and

    'I can prove God's existence from physical evidence on Earth"


    Catholics are bound to the one, but not the other.  

    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #44 on: December 13, 2013, 05:15:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: icterus
    Quote
    My point was that the below appears to be heretical.



    I don't see that.  In order for it to be heretical, the Church would have to mean 'Obvious, miraculous signs of God's active will intruding into the physical universe'.

    It seems to be the difference between 'the world declares the glory of God'

    and

    'I can prove God's existence from physical evidence on Earth"


    Catholics are bound to the one, but not the other.  


    The very existence of creation is the sign. A miracle suspends the laws of nature.

    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil