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Author Topic: Biblical Commission Of 1909  (Read 12601 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2013, 10:11:55 AM »
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  • Quote from: icterus
    Since God breathed into Adam.


    Yes, about 6000 years ago.  To say otherwise would be to claim that Scripture is historically inaccurate.  I'm guessing that you probably believe in a metaphorical "Adam" also.

    On the geocentrism thread, icterus stated that Sacred Scripture is scientifically inaccurate, an opinion which I consider to be heretical.

    When it quacks like a modernist and walks like a modernist, it's usually a modernist.

    Offline icterus

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    « Reply #16 on: December 11, 2013, 12:19:45 PM »
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  • Ladislaus wrote:

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    Yes, about 6000 years ago.  To say otherwise would be to claim that Scripture is historically inaccurate.  I'm guessing that you probably believe in a metaphorical "Adam" also.


    And yet you are posting this in a thread about the PBC allowing different opinions on that very topic.  So, you didn't understand it at all.  Not a bit.


    And, no, there can't be a metaphorical Adam.  Pope Pius XII slammed the door on that good and hard.  You might try some reading to go along with your typing.


    Quote
    On the geocentrism thread, icterus stated that Sacred Scripture is scientifically inaccurate, an opinion which I consider to be heretical.


    Placing yourself at odds with the PBC, St. Augustine, Pope Leo XIII, and Pope Pius XII.  Good luck with that.

    Quote
    When it quacks like a modernist and walks like a modernist, it's usually a modernist.


    Unless you don't really have any idea what you're talking about and are just repeating words that you know will get you thumbs up.  Which, I suspect, is exactly the case.



    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #17 on: December 11, 2013, 02:46:30 PM »
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  • Quote from: icterus
    Ladislaus wrote:

    Quote
    Yes, about 6000 years ago.  To say otherwise would be to claim that Scripture is historically inaccurate.  I'm guessing that you probably believe in a metaphorical "Adam" also.


    And yet you are posting this in a thread about the PBC allowing different opinions on that very topic.  So, you didn't understand it at all.  Not a bit.


    Not only have you been infected with modernism, but you show no grasp of basic logic.  Age of the earth and the amount of time humans have been on the earth are completely different things.  You can trace back the lineages in Sacred Scripture based on known historical events to place the creation of Adam and Eve to ca. 6000 BC.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #18 on: December 11, 2013, 02:47:40 PM »
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  • Quote from: icterus
    Placing yourself at odds with the PBC, St. Augustine, Pope Leo XIII, and Pope Pius XII.  Good luck with that.


    Oh, garbage.  I quoted Pope Leo XIII and Pius XII (on the other thread) as solemnly condemning your heretical allegation that there can be error in Scripture.

    Offline SoldierOfChrist

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    « Reply #19 on: December 11, 2013, 04:17:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: icterus
    Quote
    What else do you want to discuss about it?


    Everything!  I've been getting buried in cut and paste nonsense about 'Flood Geology' for the last 2 weeks, and the ONLY reason to engage in that weirdness would be if there was a theological concern.  There's not.  There's no reason to posit any of this, the embattled lone geologist who can only get his paper published in a country where they can't read the language...the cօռspιʀαcιҽs of hundreds of thousands of scientists...it's all needless!  

    And, this leads directly and obviously to the issue:  There's no reason to oppose anything about modern Earth science.  None of it.  There's no reason to build a edifice in opposition to it...and edifice that, since it is opposition to the people actually doing the work of investigation, will always be just an amateurish attempt to 'sound scientific'.

    It's contrary to the mission of the faith, which is to save souls by converting them to the one true faith.  Augustine knew that pseudo-science turned people away - it still does.  It's time to ask 'What are we doing here?  Are we interested in converting people, or not?  If we are, we need to stop tilting at windmills.'



    I would agree with you on on side and disagree on the other.  I've never been very interested in protestant musings at pseudo-science.  By the same token, I don't believe in evolution.  I look at those who have developed the theories that modern science is built upon, and you can see pseudo-science and subjectivity throughout their efforts.  That is not their right and they must be held accountable for the gaping holes in their arguments.  Darwin was not a scientist.  He was more of a bad pseudo-scientist with bad hypotheses, which were not supported with actual evidence.  Evolutionists always hold up "micro-evolution" as evidence of "macro-evolution".  The problem with that is that one does not lead logically into the other.  Of course the gene pool of a group of people will change over time.  That does not mean that new species will emerge from those groups, carrying a different number of chromosomes, and being reproductively viable only within this new group.  There is no evidence of it.  It is pure speculation.  And the one does not lead logically to the other.  What there is evidence for is that when offspring arise carrying a different number of chromosomes or vastly different manifestations of the genes which they carry, that those offspring are almost always incapable of reproducing.  So to sign on to this hypothesis, based on the evidence presented to us in biology text books, of which I am familiar, which has been demonstrably shown to be highly suspect, would take a leap of faith which I am uncomfortable with.  Especially given the character and lack of True Faith of the researchers.  That does not mean that I want to go on vacation to protestant creationland with my family this summer.  But I am equally turned off by the bad hypothesis of darwinian evolution.

    With regards to heliocentricity, I am definitely going to purchase The Principal and watch it.  I watched an hour 44 minute talk that the filmakers gave, which posits that the mathematical calculations line up just as well for geocentricity as they do for heliocentricity.  Heliocentricity is not proved by the physics; it is chosen.  Why?  Because the scientific community finds the idea of geocentricity "unacceptible" and because scientists "want to be modest".  These are real quotations.  Not very scientific reasoning.  These are arbitrary metaphysical choices, not based on science at best.  At worst, they are not arbitrary choices, but are rather chosen specifically because they do not line up with theories which would implicate the necessary placement of the Earth at the center of the universe by Someone.  Any evidence pointing to the geocentric model is systematically thrown out in order to line up with their arbitrary metaphysical choice of heliocentricity.  Example - the red shift of light from all other galaxies, which implies that all other galaxies are moving away from us.  Another example is the throwing out of data showing neutrinos to travel faster than the speed of light without an increase in mass.

    The work that these men have done is certainly scientific and backed by as much math and data as is that of Einstein.  In fact, all of these theories are taken into account and analyzed, before these physicists posit their own, equally viable model of the universe.

    I agree with you that untrained individuals, such as myself, should not take it upon themselves to go off trying to explain science based on their own metaphysical beliefs.  However, scientists also have no place answering metaphysical questions.  The Church answers these questions.  It is the Church's place to answer these questions.  And when trained scientists do endeavor to explain the universe, they should subordinate their metaphysical choices to the teachings of the Magisterium.  Seeing as the math and the science will readily accept either choice, it is incuмbent upon mankind to chose the answers already given to us by God.  Just as the square root of 4 is either 2 or -2, but we know in the real world that -2 doesn't exist, and that we have to choose 2, we also know that the Bible was inspired by God, and that we should not set out to disprove or discredit it.


    Offline icterus

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    « Reply #20 on: December 11, 2013, 10:22:57 PM »
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  • Soldier wrote:

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    Evolutionists always hold up "micro-evolution" as evidence of "macro-evolution".  The problem with that is that one does not lead logically into the other.


    Yes, it does.  

    Micro-evolution posits continuing changes in the genome of a species.  These changes are subsumed into the population via genetic drift, and the population remains genetically viable across wide areas.

    Now, if you isolate part of this population, the genetic changes you just agreed to as part of 'microevolution' continue, in both the parent population and the isolated daughter population.  Remember, by agreeing to 'microevolution' you agreed that these change were always occurring (and they are.  easily demonstrated)

    There is now no mechanism to diffuse changes across both populations since they are isolated from each other.  Genetic differences (remember, these changes are always occurring, that's 'microevolution') build up until these two populations are no longer viable inter-breeders.  After that, it doesn't matter if they stay physically separated or not, they are genetically separated.

    So, now you have two species, developing along their own paths.  That's called 'macroevolution'.

    So, in reality, it is one and the same process.  Please see my signature below.  

    Offline SoldierOfChrist

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    « Reply #21 on: December 11, 2013, 11:26:40 PM »
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  • Quote from: icterus
    Soldier wrote:



    So, in reality, it is one and the same process.  Please see my signature below.  


    Wow, Icterus.  You feign emotional injury from those who "are supposed to love you for Christ's sake", and then you complain when nobody will engage you in a conversation, then someone engages you, and they receive the slap in the face which I've quoted above.  I'm done conversing with you.  Think whatever you want to.  It's all a big cathinfo conspiracy to make you feel ostracized.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #22 on: December 12, 2013, 07:05:36 AM »
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  • Not only is icterus a modernist heretic, but he doesn't even know what he's talking about from a scientific standpoint.


    Offline icterus

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    « Reply #23 on: December 12, 2013, 08:53:15 AM »
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  • Quote
    Not only is icterus a modernist heretic, but he doesn't even know what he's talking about from a scientific standpoint.


    Then I'm certain you'll write a technical criticism of the above.  Go.


    Quote
    Wow, Icterus.  You feign emotional injury from those who "are supposed to love you for Christ's sake", and then you complain when nobody will engage you in a conversation, then someone engages you, and they receive the slap in the face which I've quoted above.  I'm done conversing with you.  Think whatever you want to.  It's all a big cathinfo conspiracy to make you feel ostracized.


    Toughen up.  I'm giving you factual information in a fast-moving environment.  You said something silly, I was correcting you.  I've been called a pernicious perfidious heretic here for over a week.  Walk a mile in my moccasins.  

    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #24 on: December 12, 2013, 10:18:46 AM »
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  • Quote from: icterus
    It's an amazing feature of Catholic thought.


    I notice you did't answer my question as to whether you were a Catholic or not. The above comment appears to be that of someone who isn't Catholic.

    You could clear this up rather easily with an answer.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline icterus

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    « Reply #25 on: December 12, 2013, 10:21:39 AM »
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  • Well, I'm baptized by a Catholic priest, attend Mass in the Traditional Roman Rite (1962 Missal), and receive the sacraments with regularity.  I am not, however, a sedevacantist.  As far as I'm able and aware, I hold everything the Church proposes to be true.  


    So...am I a Catholic?


    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #26 on: December 12, 2013, 12:25:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: icterus
    Well, I'm baptized by a Catholic priest, attend Mass in the Traditional Roman Rite (1962 Missal), and receive the sacraments with regularity.  I am not, however, a sedevacantist.  As far as I'm able and aware, I hold everything the Church proposes to be true.  


    So...am I a Catholic?


    Yes, thank you for answering. Are you aware that what the Church proposes includes much more than solemn definitions?
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline icterus

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    « Reply #27 on: December 12, 2013, 01:32:22 PM »
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  • What the Church proposes is vast.  Like I said, I do my best to hold it, without contradiction.  

    If there is some specific thing you want to Inquire about, feel free.

    Offline SoldierOfChrist

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    « Reply #28 on: December 12, 2013, 03:53:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: icterus

    Toughen up.  I'm giving you factual information in a fast-moving environment.  You said something silly, I was correcting you.  I've been called a pernicious perfidious heretic here for over a week.  Walk a mile in my moccasins.  


    Take some of your own advice there buddy.

    What I said was logically sound and you have not provided observational evidence of a group of organisms at that point of their evolution, in which the genetic material on their chromosomes has reached a breaking point, and some of the organisms in the group are starting to show an increase in the number of chromosomes they have.  Where's the evidence of this?  I understand the process.  Please don't try to explain it to me.  Where is the observational evidence of a group of organisms at this step along the evolutionary ladder.  Don't tell me to read a book.  If a book contains the data, then cite the title, and page like a grown up.  If a weblink contains the data, give the link.

    Just how silly was what I said?  Was it as silly as say quoting from a protestant Bible on a traditional Catholic forum?

    Offline icterus

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    « Reply #29 on: December 12, 2013, 03:56:30 PM »
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  • So, go read up on the Madeira mice.  Your free choice of site.  I suggest 'nature', but that requires a paid subscription.

    And then, take your own advice about telling me to take my own advice.  


    (and see my signature.  your ignorance is not my problem)


    (edit:  Also, chromosomal multiplication or fusion is not the only form of speciation event.  Some types of animals, like above-mentioned mice, appear to do this with high frequency.  Others, very rarely.)