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Author Topic: Bible changes: check your translation  (Read 3077 times)

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Offline Cera

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Bible changes: check your translation
« on: March 31, 2017, 03:45:26 PM »
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    • We know that Jesus is the lion of Judah. We are told this in Apocalypse 5:5: “And one of the ancients said to me: Weep not; behold the lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.”
       
     Matthew in 1:1-16 confirms this by giving the genealogy of Jesus: “The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham: Abraham begot Isaac. And Isaac begot Jacob. And Jacob begot Judah and his brethren. . .  And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.”

    Why does the Douay-Rheims translation of Matt 1:2  now say: “Abraham begot Isaac. And Isaac begot Jacob. And Jacob begot Judas and his brethren”?
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Bible changes: check your translation
    « Reply #1 on: March 31, 2017, 04:38:42 PM »
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    • My understanding is that Judas is just another form of the name Judah, along with Jude, and Judith for a female. I don't believe there is any significance in the difference.
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    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Bible changes: check your translation
    « Reply #2 on: March 31, 2017, 07:16:40 PM »
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    • As are:

    Mary and Miriam
    James and Jacob
    Jesus and Joshua

    ... different forms of the same name.
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    Offline poche

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    Re: Bible changes: check your translation
    « Reply #3 on: April 01, 2017, 12:47:05 AM »
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    • If I have any questions I just look it up in the Latin Vulgate.
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    Offline Cera

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    Re: Bible changes: check your translation
    « Reply #4 on: April 01, 2017, 02:00:55 PM »
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    • How to explain that Judah is in Apocalypse 5:5: “And one of the ancients said to me: Weep not; behold the lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof"

    -- but in Matthew, Judas is the lineage of Jesus?

    The reason Matthew and Luke spelled out the genealogy of Jesus was to prove that He is from  Abraham who begot Issiah who begot Jacob who begot Judah (not Judas).
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    Offline Cera

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    Re: Bible changes: check your translation
    « Reply #5 on: April 01, 2017, 02:03:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: poche on April 01, 2017, 12:47:05 AM
    If I have any questions I just look it up in the Latin Vulgate.
    Poche, can you check your Vulgate to see if it says
    4 Kings (2 Kings) 6:28
     This woman said to me: Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow.
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Bible changes: check your translation
    « Reply #6 on: April 01, 2017, 04:22:31 PM »
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    • Vulgate on Judam/Judas/Judah:
    [2] Abraham genuit Isaac. Isaac autem genuit Jacob. Jacob autem genuit Judam, et fratres ejus. [3] Judas autem genuit Phares, et Zaram de Thamar. 

    You can find the Vulgate by clicking at the top left side where it says LATIN VULGATE on the drbo you are quoting here, or better still click the DR + LV
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    Offline Lighthouse

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    Re: Bible changes: check your translation
    « Reply #7 on: April 01, 2017, 07:28:09 PM »
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    • Latin is a language with a high degree of inflection. Words change because of their function in the sentence. Judas as the subject becomes  Judam as a  direct object.
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Bible changes: check your translation
    « Reply #8 on: April 01, 2017, 10:43:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cera on April 01, 2017, 02:03:08 PM
    Poche, can you check your Vulgate to see if it says
    4 Kings (2 Kings) 6:28
     This woman said to me: Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow.
    The land was in severe famine. It is not unknown for pagans to do such things in such times. Apart, of course, of the repugnance of cannibalising your own child, I am wondering what issue you take with this passage. What changes do you see here?
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    Offline Cera

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    Re: Bible changes: check your translation
    « Reply #9 on: April 03, 2017, 07:11:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Nadir on April 01, 2017, 10:43:41 PM
    The land was in severe famine. It is not unknown for pagans to do such things in such times. Apart, of course, of the repugnance of cannibalising your own child, I am wondering what issue you take with this passage. What changes do you see here?
    Many other Biblical passages condemn cannibalism. And of course, as you point out, we have a built-in repugnance against it. I think I would have remembered reading such a horrible thing in the Bible.
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    Offline Cera

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    Re: Bible changes: check your translation
    « Reply #10 on: April 03, 2017, 07:17:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Nadir on April 01, 2017, 04:22:31 PM
    Vulgate on Judam/Judas/Judah:
    [2] Abraham genuit Isaac. Isaac autem genuit Jacob. Jacob autem genuit Judam, et fratres ejus. [3] Judas autem genuit Phares, et Zaram de Thamar.

    You can find the Vulgate by clicking at the top left side where it says LATIN VULGATE on the drbo you are quoting here, or better still click the DR + LV
    Apoc 5:5
    5] Et unus de senioribus dixit mihi: Ne fleveris: ecce vicit leo de tribu Juda, radix David, aperire librum, et solvere septem signacula ejus.

    Here we see the translation of the Lion of Juda translated as Juda. So why is there are discrepancy between Apoc 5:5 and the genealogy of Jesus which is now given as Judas?
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Bible changes: check your translation
    « Reply #11 on: April 03, 2017, 10:25:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cera on April 03, 2017, 07:11:51 PM
    Many other Biblical passages condemn cannibalism. 
    Cannibalism would only be condemned if it was practiced in real life. Here is an example of real life with real people.

    Quote
    And of course, as you point out, we have a built-in repugnance against it. I think I would have remembered reading such a horrible thing in the Bible.

    Maybe you don't have a super-human memory, 
    or maybe you were starting to get sleepy at the time 
    or maybe you never read it, 
    or maybe the phone rang and distracted you, 
    or maybe etc etc etc.
    Do you hold your memory as the ultimate authority?
    I forget lots of things, and some things you are better off forgetting.
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Bible changes: check your translation
    « Reply #12 on: April 03, 2017, 10:59:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cera on April 03, 2017, 07:17:53 PM
    Apoc 5:5
    5] Et unus de senioribus dixit mihi: Ne fleveris: ecce vicit leo de tribu Juda, radix David, aperire librum, et solvere septem signacula ejus.

    Here we see the translation of the Lion of Juda translated as Juda. So why is there are discrepancy between Apoc 5:5 and the genealogy of Jesus which is now given as Judas?
    There is no discrepancy!
    You don't seem to understand that Jude, Judas, Judah and Juda are all the same name. Giacomo is Italian version and Jaime the Spanish for Jacob.
    The Epistle of St Jude commences:
    [1] Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James: to them that are beloved in God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called.
    Judas Jesu Christi servus, frater autem Jacobi, his qui sunt in Deo Patre dilectis, et Christo Jesu conservatis, et vocatis.

    Jude is the English variation of the Latin Judas.
    You will see also from this verse, that James is the English version of the name Jacob. Just as Mary is English and Maria is Italian for the Hebrew, Miriam.
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    Offline poche

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    Re: Bible changes: check your translation
    « Reply #13 on: April 04, 2017, 01:55:24 AM »
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    • Quote from: Cera on April 01, 2017, 02:03:08 PM
    Poche, can you check your Vulgate to see if it says
    4 Kings (2 Kings) 6:28
     This woman said to me: Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow.
    I think you are reading this out of context. In full the passage says; 

    24 After this, Ben-hadad, king of Aram, mustered his whole army and laid siege to Samaria. 25 Because of the siege the famine in Samaria was so severe that an ass's head sold for eighty pieces of silver, and a fourth of a kab of wild onion for five pieces of silver.26 One day, as the king of Israel was walking on the city wall, a woman cried out to him, "Help, my lord king!" 27 "No," he replied, "the LORD help you! Where could I find help for you: from the threshing floor or the winepress?" 28 Then the king asked her, "What is your trouble?" She replied: "This woman said to me, 'Give up your son that we may eat him today; then tomorrow we will eat my son.' 29 So we boiled my son and ate him. The next day I said to her, 'Now give up your son that we may eat him.' But she hid her son." 30 When the king heard the woman's words, he tore his garments. And as he was walking on the wall, the people saw that he was wearing sackcloth underneath, next to his skin. 31 "May God do thus and so to me," the king exclaimed, "if the head of Elisha, son of Shaphat, stays on him today!" 32 Meanwhile, Elisha was sitting in his house in conference with the elders. The king had sent a man ahead before he himself should come to him. Elisha had said to the elders: "Do you know that this son of a murderer is sending someone to cut off my head? When the messenger comes, see that you close the door and hold it fast against him. His master's footsteps are echoing behind him." 33 While Elisha was still speaking, the king came down to him and said, "This evil is from the LORD. Why should I trust in the LORD any longer?" 
    Chapter 7
    1 1 Elisha said: "Hear the word of the LORD! Thus says the LORD, 'At this time tomorrow a seah of fine flour will sell for a shekel, and two seahs of barley for a shekel, in the market of Samaria.'" 2 But the adjutant on whose arm the king leaned, answered the man of God, "Even if the LORD were to make windows in heaven, how could this happen?" "You shall see it with your own eyes," Elisha said, "but you shall not eat of it." 3 At the city gate were four lepers who were deliberating, "Why should we sit here until we die? 4 If we decide to go into the city, we shall die there, for there is famine in the city. If we remain here, we shall die too. Come, let us desert to the camp of the Arameans. If they spare us, we live; if they kill us, we die." 5  At twilight they left for the Arameans; but when they reached the edge of the camp, no one was there.6 2 The LORD had caused the army of the Arameans to hear the sound of chariots and horses, the din of a large army, and they had reasoned among themselves, "The king of Israel has hired the kings of the Hittites and the kings of the borderlands to fight us." 7 Then in the twilight they fled, abandoning their tents, their horses, and their asses, the whole camp just as it was, and fleeing for their lives. 8 After the lepers reached the edge of the camp, they went first into one tent, ate and drank, and took silver, gold, and clothing from it, and went out and hid them. Back they came into another tent, took things from it, and again went out and hid them.9 Then they said to one another: "We are not doing right. This is a day of good news, and we are keeping silent. If we wait until morning breaks, we shall be blamed. Come, let us go and inform the palace." 10 They came and summoned the city gatekeepers. "We went to the camp of the Arameans," they said, "but no one was there - not a human voice, only the horses and asses tethered, and the tents just as they were left." 11 The gatekeepers announced this and it was reported within the palace. 12 Though it was night, the king got up; he said to his servants: "Let me tell you what the Arameans have done to us. Knowing that we are in famine, they have left their camp to hide in the field, hoping to take us alive and enter our city when we leave it." 13 One of his servants, however, suggested: "Since those who are left in the city are no better off than all the throng that has perished, let some of us take five of the abandoned horses and send scouts to investigate." 14 They took two chariots, and horses, and the king sent them to reconnoiter the Aramean army. "Go and find out," he ordered.15 They followed the Arameans as far as the Jordan, and the whole route was strewn with garments and other objects that the Arameans had thrown away in their haste. The messengers returned and told the king. 16 The people went out and plundered the camp of the Arameans; and then a seah of fine flour sold for a shekel and two seahs of barley for a shekel, as the LORD had said. 17 The king put in charge of the gate the officer who was his adjutant; but the people trampled him to death at the gate, just as the man of God had predicted when the king visited him. 18 Thus was fulfilled the prophecy of the man of God to the king, "Two seahs of barley will sell for a shekel, and one seah of fine flour for a shekel at this time tomorrow at the gate of Samaria." 19 The adjutant had answered the man of God, "Even if the LORD were to make windows in heaven, how could this happen?" And Elisha had replied, "You shall see it with your own eyes, but you shall not eat of it." 20 And that is what happened to him, for the people trampled him to death at the gate.

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_INDEX.HTM

    It is a problem when you quote the Bible out of context you get all kinds of strange results.  
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    Offline Peter15and1

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    Re: Bible changes: check your translation
    « Reply #14 on: April 05, 2017, 08:22:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: Cera on April 03, 2017, 07:17:53 PM
    Apoc 5:5
    5] Et unus de senioribus dixit mihi: Ne fleveris: ecce vicit leo de tribu Juda, radix David, aperire librum, et solvere septem signacula ejus.

    Here we see the translation of the Lion of Juda translated as Juda. So why is there are discrepancy between Apoc 5:5 and the genealogy of Jesus which is now given as Judas?
    As Nadir correctly pointed out, "Juda" and "Judas" (together with Jude and and Judah) are different English renderings of the same name.  There is no discrepancy.  The difference is simply what can happen when you translate a docuмent from an ancient language.

    You are seeing a problem where none exists.

    It is similar to how "Jesus," "Yeshua," and "Joshua" are all the same name.
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