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Author Topic: Beware  (Read 4716 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Beware
« on: March 22, 2016, 11:49:56 AM »
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  • Since there's been discussion about mortal sin and what it takes to commit one, I snipped a portion of a sermon from Fr. Wathen in 1990, the whole audio of the sermon is here and can be downloaded to your desktop or phone if you want:


     Our Lord in today’s Gospel speaks with a very few words of something most serious and it is truly a formidable message. He begins by saying: “Beware”, and we know very well what this means when someone says “beware”, he means to caution us against danger. When Our Lord says it, He is cautioning us with regard to nothing less than hell fire, the loss of our souls. When He says “beware”, He is putting us on our guard against a mortal danger.
     
     And He says “beware of false prophets” and we understand therefore that there are two kinds, the true prophets and the false. The true prophets are not those who predict the future accurately, the prophet in the scriptures is not always one who does tell us what God has warned or God has revealed about the future. The prophet is mainly the spokesman for God, he is God’s mouth piece. And Our Lord here is saying that you are going to be confronted; He is saying this of course, not only for the ears of his listeners but for all generations afterward.

     He is saying that ‘you are going to have to deal with false prophets as well as true ones’, and ‘you are going to have to distinguish between the two kinds’ and the reason he says beware, is because of the next line, that the false ones will come in the clothing of sheep. Which is to say they will appear as good as the true ones.

     He is saying there will be a problem of distinguishing, and He is saying that the false prophets will have a very winning appearance, they will have the appeal and they will sound very knowledgeable, they will be likable and you will be taken with them. That is why there is a real danger here. It is not as if you could easily distinguish, on the very contrary.

     I’m sure all of you have seen on television or heard on the radio enough protestant ministers to recognize that some of them are very personable; some of them give the impression of great learning. There is no doubt that they are likable. Someone must like them because someone, more than one someone, send them thousands and thousands of dollars to make sure that they continue, and therefore all these donors must be impressed.

    There are two elements that must not be missed in this. The first is that the false prophets are deceivers. By their good appearance, by their affableness, and by the convincingness of their message they are a danger, and the other element is that people listen to them hungrily. Whatever they say, the people enjoy hearing.

    Now this is the question.

    Who is guilty? Is it the false prophet or is it those who listen?

    If it is only the false prophet who is guilty, why is there any need to “beware”? Which is to say if God is not going to blame those who listen, those who are taken in by the falsehoods by the erroneous doctrine. The problem here is that you have heard all your lives that you cannot commit a mortal sin unless you have full knowledge and willingness, full consent.

     Here Our Lord is saying you can be deceived, and you can listen and you can accept that which is erroneous, that which is deceptive, and if you do, even if you have good intentions, that is why there is danger. And Our Lord therefore says that being deceived is your fault. You can lose your soul by being deceived.
     And He is saying your good intention is not enough because presumably, people do not listen to liars, deceivers or heretics, with a bad intention, or do they? – That is the question! They must! Because somewhere there is a sin, and the sin is in the evil in the heart.

     Now we have to presume that sometime the heretical preacher has good intentions because he also is deceived, after all he learned his belief from some other false prophet and presumably he listened with what he thought was a good will, but he is deceived, and now he is passing his heresy and his scandal onto those who also are deceived.

    We have to presume therefore that there is an evil will beneath the sincerity, which is to say those who give out with that which is erroneous; that which is false and that which is destructive, are guilty of doing it even if they imagine that they have good will.

    And those who listen to that which is erroneous, you will remember that Our Lord uses the same expression in His parable, his allegory of the Good Shepherd, you remember that He says that the wolf enters among the sheep and he kills and he scatters. The wolf is the false teacher, the heretical preacher, the false prophet. And he introduces into the Church destruction and disunity because his doctrine is false there is bound to be disagreement among the Lord’s flock as what is the true doctrine and what is the false?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Beware
    « Reply #1 on: March 28, 2016, 10:48:22 AM »
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  • Bump for Myrna and McCork who have gone the way of crickets on this one......

    Quote from: Baltimore Catechism

    Q. 282. How many things are necessary to make a sin mortal?
    A. To make a sin mortal, three things are necessary: 1.a grievous matter, sufficient reflection, and full consent of the will.

    Our Lord said: "Beware of false prophets......."


    Who is guilty? Is it the false prophet or is it those who listen?

    If it is only the false prophet who is guilty, why is there any need to “beware”? Which is to say if God is not going to blame those who listen, those who are taken in by the falsehoods by the erroneous doctrine. The problem here is that you have heard all your lives that you cannot commit a mortal sin unless you have full knowledge and willingness, full consent.

    Here Our Lord is saying you can be deceived, and you can listen and you can accept that which is erroneous, that which is deceptive, and if you do, even if you have good intentions, that is why there is danger. And Our Lord therefore says that being deceived is your fault. You can lose your soul by being deceived.
    And He is saying your good intention is not enough because presumably, people do not listen to liars, deceivers or heretics, with a bad intention, or do they? – That is the question! They must! Because somewhere there is a sin, and the sin is in the evil in the heart.

    Now we have to presume that sometime the heretical preacher has good intentions because he also is deceived, after all he learned his belief from some other false prophet and presumably he listened with what he thought was a good will, but he is deceived, and now he is passing his heresy and his scandal onto those who also are deceived.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline MarylandTrad

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    Beware
    « Reply #2 on: March 28, 2016, 11:31:31 PM »
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  • Quote from: Baltimore Catechism

    Q. 282. How many things are necessary to make a sin mortal?
    A. To make a sin mortal, three things are necessary: 1.a grievous matter, sufficient reflection, and full consent of the will.


    I have observed from listening to Novus Ordo priests, professors, and laymen, that this one single teaching from the BC has deceived many into thinking that their mortal sins are not mortal sins. I am not smart enough to know whether this teaching from the BC can be understood in an orthodox sense. All I know is that most American Catholics sure haven't interpreted it in such a sense.

    I have come across other Catechisms that teach that every man is responsible under pain of mortal sin to know what the 10 Commandments are and what they require him to do and to avoid doing.

    I have come across other Catechisms that explain that if a man is unsure whether an action he is considering committing is a venial or a mortal sin, and he commits the action anyway, then he commits a mortal sin even if the offense would only be venial in other circuмstances, because the very fact that he is willing to do something that might possibly be a grave offense against God is in itself a mortally sinful display of contempt towards God.

    There is a world of difference between some of these Catechisms on this issue just as there is a world of difference between the Catechisms that teach that there are one baptism and the Catechisms that teach that there are three or four baptisms.
    "The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a man who thinks other people can get along without It. The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a communicant who thinks he needs It but someone else does not. The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a communicant who offers others any charity ahead of this Charity of the Bread of Life." -Fr. Leonard Feeney, Bread of Life

    Offline clare

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    Beware
    « Reply #3 on: March 29, 2016, 04:06:30 AM »
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  • Quote
    29 Q: What is required for a sin to be mortal?

    A: For a sin to be mortal three things are required: (1) Grave matter, (2) Full advertence, (3) Perfect consent of the will.

    Catechism of St Pius X

    Quote
    10 Q: Besides grave matter, what is required to constitute a mortal sin?

    A: To constitute a mortal sin, besides grave matter there is also required full consciousness of the gravity of the matter, along with the deliberate will to commit the sin.

    Also Catechism of St Pius X

    Offline Stubborn

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    Beware
    « Reply #4 on: March 29, 2016, 04:18:24 AM »
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  • Quote from: clare
    Quote
    29 Q: What is required for a sin to be mortal?

    A: For a sin to be mortal three things are required: (1) Grave matter, (2) Full advertence, (3) Perfect consent of the will.

    Catechism of St Pius X

    Quote
    10 Q: Besides grave matter, what is required to constitute a mortal sin?

    A: To constitute a mortal sin, besides grave matter there is also required full consciousness of the gravity of the matter, along with the deliberate will to commit the sin.

    Also Catechism of St Pius X


    Yes Clare, this is in all the catechisms I ever read, amazing when you think about it.

    So why did Our Lord warn us to beware of false prophets who can end up in hell for preaching false doctrines and lead us to hell for accepting their false doctrines?

    Are you saying people accept the false doctrines (grave matter) with sufficient reflection, and full consent of the will along with the deliberate will to commit the sin by accepting false doctrines?

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline clare

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    Beware
    « Reply #5 on: March 29, 2016, 06:46:03 AM »
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  • "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

    And that was regarding a very serious sin indeed!

    Offline Stubborn

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    Beware
    « Reply #6 on: March 29, 2016, 07:09:49 AM »
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  • Quote from: clare
    "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

    And that was regarding a very serious sin indeed!


    So why did Our Lord warn us to beware of false prophets who can end up in hell for preaching false doctrines and lead us to hell for accepting their false doctrines?

    Are you saying people accept the false doctrines (grave matter) with sufficient reflection, and full consent of the will along with the deliberate will to commit the sin by accepting false doctrines?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Beware
    « Reply #7 on: March 29, 2016, 07:27:14 AM »
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  • Quote from: clare
    "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

    And that was regarding a very serious sin indeed!


    The fact that Christ asked forgiveness for his torturers only demonstrates they sinned - or else why would Our Lord ask His Father to forgive them at all if by virtue of them not knowing what they did, they were not at fault or without sin for what they did to Our Lord?

    So the question remains, what need is there to beware at all, if we cannot be guilty of mortal sin unless we have full knowledge and willingness, full consent?



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline clare

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    Beware
    « Reply #8 on: March 29, 2016, 08:04:24 AM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: clare
    "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

    And that was regarding a very serious sin indeed!


    So why did Our Lord warn us to beware of false prophets who can end up in hell for preaching false doctrines and lead us to hell for accepting their false doctrines?

    Are you saying people accept the false doctrines (grave matter) with sufficient reflection, and full consent of the will along with the deliberate will to commit the sin by accepting false doctrines?

    It's generally a good idea to make excuse for other people, but not for ourselves. His warning is for us, not "them". We do what we know (including trying to enlighten others). Beyond that, we make excuses for them, which won't work for us.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Beware
    « Reply #9 on: March 29, 2016, 11:56:46 AM »
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  • Quote from: clare

    It's generally a good idea to make excuse for other people, but not for ourselves. His warning is for us, not "them". We do what we know (including trying to enlighten others). Beyond that, we make excuses for them, which won't work for us.


    Since when is it ever a good idea to make excuses for anyone? And why did Our Lord warn us to beware of false prophets if we can be excused for being deceived?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline clare

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    Beware
    « Reply #10 on: March 29, 2016, 01:00:31 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: clare

    It's generally a good idea to make excuse for other people, but not for ourselves. His warning is for us, not "them". We do what we know (including trying to enlighten others). Beyond that, we make excuses for them, which won't work for us.

    Since when is it ever a good idea to make excuses for anyone?

    Since Our Lord made the excuse of them "not knowing what they do."
    Quote
    And why did Our Lord warn us to beware of false prophets if we can be excused for being deceived?

    As I said, His warning was directed to us. We are not excused. We don't make excuses for ourselves but for others.


    Offline clare

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    Beware
    « Reply #11 on: March 29, 2016, 01:11:18 PM »
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  • Quote
    ... When a just man cannot see any excuse for what is done by a person in whose general worth he believes, he still refrains from judging him, and leaves all to God’s Judgment. Again, our Crucified Saviour, while He could not wholly ignore the sin of those who Crucified Him, yet made what excuse He might for them, pleading their ignorance. And so when we cannot find any excuse for sin, let us at least claim what compassion we may for it, and impute it to the least damaging motives we can find, as ignorance or infirmity.
    ...

    Introduction to the Devout Life

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Beware
    « Reply #12 on: March 29, 2016, 01:23:06 PM »
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  • In context,
    Quote from: The Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ, According to St. Matthew,
    24:3 And when he was sitting on mount Olivet, the disciples came to him privately, saying: Tell us when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the consummation of the world?

    to which our Lord replied,
    Quote from: The Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ, According to St. Matthew,
    24:4 And Jesus answering, said to them: Take heed that no man seduce you:

    continuing
    Quote from: The Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ, According to St. Matthew,
    24:5 For many will come in my name saying, I am Christ: and they will seduce many.


    This a warning from our Lord regarding heretical false teachings.

    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline clare

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    Beware
    « Reply #13 on: March 30, 2016, 01:59:03 AM »
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  • Quote from: clare
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: clare

    It's generally a good idea to make excuse for other people, but not for ourselves. His warning is for us, not "them". We do what we know (including trying to enlighten others). Beyond that, we make excuses for them, which won't work for us.

    Since when is it ever a good idea to make excuses for anyone?

    Since Our Lord made the excuse of them "not knowing what they do."
    Quote
    And why did Our Lord warn us to beware of false prophets if we can be excused for being deceived?

    As I said, His warning was directed to us. We are not excused. We don't make excuses for ourselves but for others.

    More excuses:
    Quote
    ... They perhaps seem to be worse than they really are. Their associations with others, prejudice, the counsel, advice and example of others, and finally an ill advised shame have dragged them to the side of the impious; but their wills are not so depraved as they themselves would seek to make people believe....

    E Supremi, St Pius X

    Offline TKGS

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    Beware
    « Reply #14 on: March 30, 2016, 09:09:02 AM »
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  • "Making excuses for others" is nothing more than presuming other people's good will whenever it is possible to do so since you do not really know what is in his mind and heart.