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Author Topic: Best defenses of the different theological positions  (Read 2152 times)

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Offline Geometry

Best defenses of the different theological positions
« on: August 17, 2024, 09:26:26 PM »
As a recent convert, only now have I stopped to analyze if the position in which I find myself is truly the correct one. I love my chapel, my priests and so forth, but I wonder if I'm actually correct. I don't seem to find good systematic defenses of the positions that exist in the "trad world" in text format (preferably books, but articles will do), probably because I don't know how to properly search for them. Therefore, I ask each of you (R&R, sedevacantists, sedeprivationists [I apologize if you don't like the distinction] etc.) to kindly reference me to whatever text you think best defends your position. Particularly, I've been wondering if Fr. Calderón's book on the conciliar magisterium is the best reference when it comes to the R&R and, if it is, I'd like to know how people that disagree with such a position generally respond. I'll refrain from stating where I find myself at the moment since I don't think it'd be relevant to the question at hand.

Thanks to anyone who answers me.
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Offline Giovanni Berto

Re: Best defenses of the different theological positions
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2024, 09:52:00 PM »
I am not good on sources, so I will only make some suggestions, but what I can tell you is that Fr. Calderon's book does not convince me at all.

I am inclined towards Sedeprivationism, but I don't really strictly adopt any position. 

If I were trying to defend the R&R position, I would not use that book at all. Its main argument is that the Conciliar Magisterium is in "dialogue mode", so everything that the Conciliar Popes do and say are merely propositions and not binding. This does have some logic, but it seems to imply that the Pope can say whatever rubbish they want and still not be a heretic.

I believe that this thesis was develped by the SSPX "theologians" after the death of Abp. Lefebvre. As far as I know, he never said such thing. To get a good grasp of the R&R position, I believe that you have to read the most important texts from Abp. Lefebvre, especially his interviews and books after 1988.

For Sedeprivationism, I think that Bp. Guèrard des Lauriers and Bp. Sanborn are the best sources, but I have not dug deep into their writings.
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Offline poenitens

Re: Best defenses of the different theological positions
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2024, 10:14:37 PM »
Sedeprivationism is the theological position that makes most sense to me. Some resources:

The Thesis - Understanding the Changes in the Catholic Church

Sodalitium - Sodalitium (here you may find answers to objections scattered through the different numbers of the magazine).

I also attached the Cahiers de Cassiciacuм 1, which is the original publication of the thesis by Bp. Guérard des Lauriers. I haven't read it entirely, but the parts that I have are very understandable.

Btw, Bp. Guérard des Lauriers was also a mathematician and I'm one as well (though not a very good one).

Ave María Purísima

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Offline Geometry

Re: Best defenses of the different theological positions
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2024, 11:27:58 PM »

Quote from: poenitens on August 17, 2024, 10:14:37 PM
Sedeprivationism is the theological position that makes most sense to me. Some resources:

The Thesis - Understanding the Changes in the Catholic Church

Sodalitium - Sodalitium (here you may find answers to objections scattered through the different numbers of the magazine).

I also attached the Cahiers de Cassiciacuм 1, which is the original publication of the thesis by Bp. Guérard des Lauriers. I haven't read it entirely, but the parts that I have are very understandable.

Btw, Bp. Guérard des Lauriers was also a mathematician and I'm one as well (though not a very good one).

Ave María Purísima


Thank you for that first website, I think I've previously come by it but didn't pay enough attention. Also, it's always nice to see another mathematician (I'll consider myself one in a short while, to be precise).

I'd also like to thank Giovanni, I'll try to keep mainly Abp. Lefebvre's position in mind when thinking about the R&R.
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Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Best defenses of the different theological positions
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2024, 09:49:51 AM »
There are plenty of resources out there for R&R, more than the others by far. Take Pope Paul IV's Constitution: cuм ex Apostolatus Officio wherein he begins with:
"1.In assessing Our duty and the situation now prevailing, We have been weighed upon by the thought
that a matter of this kind [i.e. error in respect of the Faith] is so grave and so dangerous that the Roman
Pontiff,who is the representative upon earth of God and our God and Lord Jesus Christ, who holds the
fullness of power over peoples and kingdoms, who may judge all and be judged by none in this world,
may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the Faith."

Here we see the pope way back in 1559, tells us two things right off the bat that are contrary to sedeism: 1) that popes are not to be judged by anyone and 2) in the event of heretical popes, they may be contradicted - this *is* R&R. Follow this directive and you cannot be wrong about this matter.

Here is an audio of an interview with Fr. Wathen given by one of the Dimonds from the early 1990s wherein nearly all the issues concerning the pope problem that are still floating around today are answered.

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