Author Topic: Bergy contemplates female Cardinal  (Read 6684 times)

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Offline Incredulous

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Bergy contemplates female Cardinal
« on: September 23, 2013, 03:32:24 PM »
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  • Link:El Pais article

    El Pais

    Pope Francis contemplates appointing a female cardinal


    Observers believe pontiff is likely to make changes to allow a bigger role for women in the Church



    Juan Arias  Río de Janeiro  23 SEP 2013 - 18:22 CET




    Nuns at a religious event in Madrid in 2011. / LUIS SEVILLANO
     

    It’s not a joke. It’s something that Pope Francis has thought about before: naming a woman cardinal. Those who know the pope, both before and after he took over from Ratzinger, say that the first Jesuit pontiff is not only surprising people with his comments, but also with his actions. And this has been happening throughout his first six months in the role.

    Those who think that Francis – who has all the simplicity of a parish priest – is a naïve man are wrong. This pope isn’t an ordinary pope. He has come to St. Peter’s with concrete plans for the Catholic Church: he wants to revive Christianity by taking it back to its origins.

    The symbolism of his actions began when he first appeared on the balcony at St. Peter’s, calling himself “a bishop” and asking the people to bless him. Since then, he has wasted no time in making unexpected decisions, which have shocked those both inside and outside the Church.

    And he will continue to do so, especially with his plans to appoint a female cardinal. He knows that a woman’s role in the Church is an unresolved issue that cannot wait any longer. He was clear about this during his interview with La Civiltà Cattolica last week. “The Church cannot be herself without the woman and her role,” he said. “The woman is essential for the Church. Mary, a woman, is more important than the bishops. I say this because we must not confuse the function with the dignity.”

     
    Some would argue that women are not allowed to be deacons as they were 800 years ago
     
    In other words, it was as if Pope Francis was saying: “The Church isn’t complete because the woman’s role is missing.”

    How can he introduce that essential component? He answered the question himself during the interview: “We must therefore investigate further the role of women in the Church. We have to work harder to develop a profound theology of the woman.”

    And that theology, according to the pope, cannot be construed within the Vatican’s walls.” The feminine genius is needed wherever we make important decisions,” he said.

    He may pave the way with discussions that urgently put the issue of a woman’s role in the Church on the table, or better yet, “in front of the altar.” And one of those gestures could be the naming of the first female cardinal. Is that feat impossible? No, because canonical law states that cardinals don’t have to be priests, they can be deacons.

    Some would argue that women are not allowed to be deacons as they were 800 years ago among the first Christian communities. But this is one of the reforms that Francis has in mind; it is not based on any dogma. A woman could become a deaconess tomorrow if he so desired.

    As Phyllis Zagano of Loyola University in Chicago, an expert on the issue, wrote: “A female deaconess is not an idea for the future. It is an issue for the present and today.”

    Zagano brought up the matter with Cardinal Ratzinger before he became pope. “This is something that is being studied,” he told her. Pope Benedict XVI did not follow through but Pope Francis might.

    The Armenian Apostolic Church and the Greek Orthodox Church, which have close links to the Vatican, both have deaconesses.

    Any woman who is appointed deaconess can indeed become a cardinal without having to change canonical law.

    Cardinals serve as advisors to the pope and their primary function is to elect a new pontiff.

    “Knowing this pope, he wouldn’t hesitate before appointing a woman cardinal,” said one Jesuit priest. “And he would indeed enjoy being the first pope to allow women to participate in the selection of a new pontiff.”
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Iuvenalis

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    Bergy contemplates female Cardinal
    « Reply #1 on: September 23, 2013, 03:43:37 PM »
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  • Highly speculative article, even for Francis.

    If true, this is a big deal.


    Offline Cantarella

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    Bergy contemplates female Cardinal
    « Reply #2 on: September 23, 2013, 03:56:35 PM »
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  • Nothing would be a surprise at this point  :facepalm:
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Bergy contemplates female Cardinal
    « Reply #3 on: September 23, 2013, 04:02:09 PM »
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  • You know what?  Let it happen.

    By doing so, he will certainly show the world without a doubt that he is a heretic.  No more claims that the media twisted his words.  No more question as to whether the SV position is tenable.

    And no more of my struggling not knowing what the Hell is going on these days......

    Damn it.  Just do it already.

    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

    Offline TKGS

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    Bergy contemplates female Cardinal
    « Reply #4 on: September 23, 2013, 04:55:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: 2Vermont
    You know what?  Let it happen.

    By doing so, he will certainly show the world without a doubt that he is a heretic.  No more claims that the media twisted his words.  No more question as to whether the SV position is tenable.

    And no more of my struggling not knowing what the Hell is going on these days......

    Damn it.  Just do it already.



    Sorry to burst your bubble, but nearly all the Conciliar Catholic world and most of the traditional Catholic world, including a lot of regular posters here on CathInfo would go along with it even if they said they didn't like it.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Bergy contemplates female Cardinal
    « Reply #5 on: September 23, 2013, 04:58:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    Quote from: 2Vermont
    You know what?  Let it happen.

    By doing so, he will certainly show the world without a doubt that he is a heretic.  No more claims that the media twisted his words.  No more question as to whether the SV position is tenable.

    And no more of my struggling not knowing what the Hell is going on these days......

    Damn it.  Just do it already.



    Sorry to burst your bubble, but nearly all the Conciliar Catholic world and most of the traditional Catholic world, including a lot of regular posters here on CathInfo would go along with it even if they said they didn't like it.


    Well then I guess we get what we deserve, no?
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

    Offline Incredulous

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    Bergy contemplates female Cardinal
    « Reply #6 on: September 23, 2013, 05:09:47 PM »
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  • It seems Bergy is putting out several marketing "trial balloons", to see how much support or resistance he will get ?

    Two weeks ago, it was an article placed in a Venezuelan newspaper by his No. 2 man, floating the idea of ending priestly celibacy.

    Now the idea about a female Cardinal.  The question is, when and how will the real Catholics push back and declare him an anti-Pope ?

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline AlligatorDicax

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    Bergy contemplates female Cardinal
    « Reply #7 on: September 23, 2013, 06:47:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: Juan Arias for [i
    El Pais[/i] (23 SEP 2013 - 18:22 CET)]POPE  FRANCIS  CONTEMPLATES  APPOINTING  A  FEMALE  CARDINAL
    Observers believe pontiff is likely to make changes to allow a bigger role for women in the Church

    Oddly, not a single direct quote from Bishop-of-Rome Francis contains the words "deacon" nor "cardinal".  If it'd been assigned by any kind of news-editor, that editor probably would've gone ballistic after realizing that the reporter had failed to get a quote straight from Francis' mouth that would justify the controversial words in the headline.

    To me, whatever part of the article was contained in the original posting, above, reads like an exercise in liberal advocacy--an editorial--that had been decorated with enough quotes to give it the superficial appearance of a genuine news article.

    Quote from: Incredulous (Sep 23, 2013, 6:09 pm)
    It seems Bergy is putting out several marketing "trial balloons", to see how much support or resistance he will get ?


    So perhaps a trial balloon--albeit one with plausible deniability--really is its primary purpose.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Bergy contemplates female Cardinal
    « Reply #8 on: September 23, 2013, 06:52:58 PM »
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  • A female cardinal would be the worst thing, as it allows neo-cats a perfect defense of the man.  Cardinals don't have to be clergy, so in theory, a woman could be a cardinal.  They'll simply point this out and claim that there's nothing wrong with appointing a woman cardinal.  
    More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Bergy contemplates female Cardinal
    « Reply #9 on: September 23, 2013, 07:00:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    A female cardinal would be the worst thing, as it allows neo-cats a perfect defense of the man.  Cardinals don't have to be clergy, so in theory, a woman could be a cardinal.  They'll simply point this out and claim that there's nothing wrong with appointing a woman cardinal.  


    Thanks a lot.  I just got depressed all over again.  :-P
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Bergy contemplates female Cardinal
    « Reply #10 on: September 24, 2013, 12:36:00 AM »
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  • There are already "female" cardinals within novus ordo secretly supporting same sex marriage.
    To live with the Saints in Heaven is all bliss and glory....To live with the saints on Earth is just another story!  (unknown)


    Offline ggreg

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    Bergy contemplates female Cardinal
    « Reply #11 on: September 24, 2013, 03:26:53 AM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    A female cardinal would be the worst thing, as it allows neo-cats a perfect defense of the man.  Cardinals don't have to be clergy, so in theory, a woman could be a cardinal.  They'll simply point this out and claim that there's nothing wrong with appointing a woman cardinal.  


    I think if someone they saw as, "otherwise conservative", did this you would be correct.

    If someone they see as an out and out modernist does it they won't necessarily take that same line.  How many conservatives have you spoken to recently?  Are you conducting polls to gauge what they think of Francis's statements?

    Everyone has a point where they stop grasping at straws.  Even Jayne K, given enough pressure, would break and probably become some sort of third order rad Trad extremist.

    The fence sitters when they jump off the fence often become the Tradicals because they want to flog themselves for being blind to things for so long.

    Humans are funny like that.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Bergy contemplates female Cardinal
    « Reply #12 on: September 24, 2013, 04:10:15 AM »
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  • Quote from: ggreg
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    A female cardinal would be the worst thing, as it allows neo-cats a perfect defense of the man.  Cardinals don't have to be clergy, so in theory, a woman could be a cardinal.  They'll simply point this out and claim that there's nothing wrong with appointing a woman cardinal.  


    I think if someone they saw as, "otherwise conservative", did this you would be correct.

    If someone they see as an out and out modernist does it they won't necessarily take that same line.  How many conservatives have you spoken to recently?  Are you conducting polls to gauge what they think of Francis's statements?

    Everyone has a point where they stop grasping at straws.  Even Jayne K, given enough pressure, would break and probably become some sort of third order rad Trad extremist.

    The fence sitters when they jump off the fence often become the Tradicals because they want to flog themselves for being blind to things for so long.

    Humans are funny like that.


    OK, that made me feel somewhat better....lol.
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

    Offline TKGS

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    Bergy contemplates female Cardinal
    « Reply #13 on: September 24, 2013, 09:56:18 AM »
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  • Quote from: ggreg
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    A female cardinal would be the worst thing, as it allows neo-cats a perfect defense of the man.  Cardinals don't have to be clergy, so in theory, a woman could be a cardinal.  They'll simply point this out and claim that there's nothing wrong with appointing a woman cardinal.  


    I think if someone they saw as, "otherwise conservative", did this you would be correct.

    If someone they see as an out and out modernist does it they won't necessarily take that same line.  How many conservatives have you spoken to recently?  Are you conducting polls to gauge what they think of Francis's statements?

    Everyone has a point where they stop grasping at straws.  Even Jayne K, given enough pressure, would break and probably become some sort of third order rad Trad extremist.

    The fence sitters when they jump off the fence often become the Tradicals because they want to flog themselves for being blind to things for so long.

    Humans are funny like that.


    I have listened to "conservative" Catholics and, frankly, they will not object if the man they consider to be pope creates female cardinals.  In fact, I have read "conservative" Catholics, even ones who "prefer" the traditional Mass, say that the pope's power to bind and loose would even allow him to ordain women as priests and bishops.  To them, "Modernism" is a term out of the past that may describe certain historical issues but has no real relevance today.

    (I remember asking a "traditionally minded" Novus Ordo priest who had his "celebret" to say the traditional Mass, refused to give Communion in the hand, and was very orthodox in most of what he said, what value the anti-Modernist encyclicals of Pope St. Pius X and others were if they could not be applied to the people like Pope John Paul II and Cardinal Ratzinger?  He told me, in all seriousness, that those documents were written to address very specific issues that were prevalent in their day but really don't apply today.  This was when I began to lose faith and trust in the "conservative" Catholic apologists.  I was truly trying to understand how to reconcile traditional teachings with what was being fed to us by the hierarchy, and the only response I've ever been able to get was that, somehow, the plain talk of the great popes of the past who seemed to be describing our current situation perfectly just didn't apply because...well, just because!)

    Remember that every time most "conservative" Catholics draws  a line in the sand and are convinced the pope would never agree to such and such (e.g., all-English Masses, girl altar boys, Communion in the hand, ordinary use of extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist, the acceptability of homosexuality, etc., etc., etc.) when the line is crossed, they almost all simply accept the change as a fait accompli and move on to the next line in the sand.

    The question is not what "conservative" Catholics would do, but what traditional Catholics who still think Bergoglio is the pope will do.  Too many of them are so invested in anti-sedevacantism right now that it is really hard to say.  Suffice it to say that I am not optimistic.

    P.S.  I, too, note that Bergoglio himself has not actually used these words and that it is apparent that these ideas are being leaked to a sympathetic press as trial balloons to gauge the reactions of the public and the bishops.  This "papacy" is less than a year old and we're already seeing a lot of crazy things being said outright as well as being floated about.  I don't think that what many people call crazy today will be the norm in one or two years.

    Offline Charlemagne

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    Bergy contemplates female Cardinal
    « Reply #14 on: September 24, 2013, 10:08:52 AM »
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  • Quote from: Incredulous
    It seems Bergy is putting out several marketing "trial balloons", to see how much support or resistance he will get ?


    I agree. He's going as far as he can while attempting to not overplay his hand.
    "Kindness is for fools! They [modernists] want to be treated with oil, soap, and caresses, but they ought to be beaten with fists. In a duel, you don't count or measure the blows, you strike as you can. War is not made with charity. It is a struggle, a duel." -- Pope St. Pius X

     

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