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Author Topic: Bergolio to change rules on “papal” conclave  (Read 3932 times)

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Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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Bergolio to change rules on “papal” conclave
« on: November 05, 2023, 03:46:21 PM »
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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Bergolio to change rules on “papal” conclave
    « Reply #1 on: November 05, 2023, 03:48:27 PM »
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  • A friend sent this info.  He is totally right. 

    The synod was totally rigged and was evil.  It’s sickening to watch this.  





    May God bless you and keep you


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergolio to change rules on “papal” conclave
    « Reply #2 on: November 05, 2023, 04:24:00 PM »
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  • Apart from Bergoglio's typical antics, the response is an emotional and gratuitous wave-of-the-hand dismissal of sedeprivationism ... without any substance behind it.

    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: Bergolio to change rules on “papal” conclave
    « Reply #3 on: November 06, 2023, 08:41:37 AM »
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  • Official denial has been issued by Ghirlanda. See pasted below from LifeSiteNews.

    A few were saying so in previous days, and today in retrospect more of the usual pundits are claiming that this was a classic planted leak for the Vatican to discover who among the insiders has been blabbing in general. Ah well, too bad for the Trad Inc. press on all those trusted sources....:incense: :popcorn:


    Quote
    EXCLUSIVE: Cardinal says reports he is changing rules for electing new pope are ‘absolutely false’


    Cdl. Gianfranco Ghirlanda expressly denied the veracity of recent reports about his involvement in plans to change future papal conclaves, contradicting the claim of recently cited Vatican sources.

    Michael Haynes
    Mon Nov 6, 2023 - 3:54 am EST

    VATICAN CITY (LifeSiteNews) — A prominent Vatican cardinal and canon lawyer favored by Pope Francis has told LifeSiteNews that reports he is drawing up a docuмent with the Pope to reform the process for a papal conclave are “absolutely false.”

    In an exclusive statement provided to LifeSiteNews on Sunday evening, Cardinal Gianfranco Ghirlanda, S.J., rejected as “absolutely false” reports that he is in the midst of plans to reform the manner of electing a new Pope.

    “Before your email I had no news about the Conclave reform that you mention,” wrote the 81-year-old Jesuit cardinal, raised to the cardinalate by Francis in August 2022. “I went to the Internet and saw that it is said that I am working with the Pope for such reform.”
    “This is absolutely false,” he added when questioned if he could confirm the reports which were published over the weekend regarding his rumored reforming of papal conclaves. “Since I am not aware of this, I see no point in a meeting,” he added.

    Reports of conclave reformation

    Late Saturday night, The Pillar and shortly afterwards The Remnant reported that Ghirlanda has been tasked by Pope Francis to draw up draft reforms for the papal conclave process. The Pillar wrote that Ghirlanda was looking at making reforms to Pope John Paul II’s 1996 docuмent governing the conclave – Universi dominici gregis (UDG).

    Citing “sources close to the Vatican’s Secretariat of State” in its report, The Pillar wrote that the rumored changes would be of two kinds, and would affect the general congregations which precede the actual voting undertaken by cardinals in the Sistine Chapel. 

    The general congregations, as outlined by UDG, are open to all cardinals whether over the voting cut-off age bracket of 80 or not.
    While not forming part of the official conclave election procedure in one sense, the general congregations are a particularly key time for the college of cardinals to exchange ideas and arguments, as well as finalizing the procedures for the conclave. These discussions, per UDG paragraph 59, are bound by the same “obligation of secrecy” as that which governs voting for a new pope.

    READ: Pope Francis’ favorite pro-LGBT nun says he is ‘laying the groundwork’ for changing teaching on ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity
    The first reported change, according to the Pillar’s “senior sources,” would include excluding all cardinals aged over 80 from the general congregations. This would mean that only those cardinals eligible to elect the new pope – those under 80 years old – could be present in the congregations.

    A second reported change would alter the manner in which the congregations themselves took place, being modeled on a more synodal style. The Pillar wrote:
    Quote
    The other prospective change would reportedly modify the format of the general congregation – limiting the opportunity for speeches to the whole College of Cardinals, which would be replaced by sessions of similar style to the synod of synodality, in which participants sit at round tables of 10 or so participants for ‘spiritual conversations,’ followed by reports to the entire assembly summarizing those table discussions.

    Lay voters at the conclave?

    However, The Remnant added that the College of Cardinals would no longer be the sole electors of the new pope. According to The Remnant’s report, Ghirlanda is looking to persuade Pope Francis to allow male and female members of the laity, along with religious sisters, to form up to 25 percent of those electing the pope.

    The Remnant cited “well-informed Vatican sources” in the report, attesting that Ghirlanda has been meeting occasionally with Pope Francis since spring, and meeting “weekly” from the end of August till early October.

    The Pillar also alluded to lay electors being involved, writing somewhat differently to The Remnant that “enior Roman clergy have told The Pillar that there have also been rumors that Pope Francis has considered the idea of inviting lay people to participate in general congregations.” The outlet added it was unable to confirm the veracity of this information.

    Additional testimony has been made supporting the weekend’s reports. LifeSiteNews understands that Italian Catholic news outlet Messa in Latino’s Vatican sources support the veracity of the reported conclave reforms.

    Who is Ghirlanda?

    A recently minted cardinal, Ghirlanda is Pope Francis’ go-to canon lawyer, having been heavily involved in Francis’ 2022 reform of the Roman Curia, Praedicate evangelium, which made waves by permitting laypeople to hold leading positions within the Curia.

    READ: Pope Francis reforms Roman Curia, says any layperson can hold ‘governance’ positions in Vatican

    More recently Ghirlanda has replaced Cardinal Raymond Burke as Patron of the Order of Malta.
    A former rector of Rome’s Jesuit-run Gregorian University, Ghirlanda has controversially argued that papal power in the Church is “unlimited.”

    According to Cardinal Gerhard Müller, during the 2022 consistory Ghirlanda presented the “theory of the papacy as an unlimited power of divine right over the whole Church, as if the Pope were a Deus in terris [God on earth].” Such a view, stated Müller, “contradicts the entire Catholic tradition, and especially the Second Vatican Council, that the bishops and priests have only the authority to perform sacramental acts, while the Pope is in sole possession of all jurisdiction, which he can delegate at will to clerics or laymen.”

    What change is possible?

    Following the emergence of Saturday’s reports regarding reforming papal conclave procedures, consternation broke out amongst Catholics in response to the news. Indeed, Canon 349 of the current 1983 Code of Canon Law stipulates that it is only the cardinals who elect a new pope.

    The canon reads:
    Quote
    The cardinals of the Holy Roman Church constitute a special college which provides for the election of the Roman Pontiff according to the norm of special law. The cardinals assist the Roman Pontiff either collegially when they are convoked to deal with questions of major importance, or individually when they help the Roman Pontiff through the various offices they perform, especially in the daily care of the universal Church.
    In his introduction to Universi Dominici Gregis, Pope John Paul II notes that “it is in fact an indisputable principle that the Roman Pontiff has the right to define and adapt to changing times the manner of designating the person called to assume the Petrine succession in the Roman See.”
    Quote
    Canon 349 notes only cdls elect a new pope for #CatholicChurch: “The cardinals of the Holy Roman Church constitute a special college which provides for the election of the Roman Pontiff according to the norm of special law.”
     And John Paul II affirmed only cardinals elect a Pope. pic.twitter.com/wNTVR6f4S9
    — Michael Haynes 🇻🇦 (@MLJHaynes) November 4, 2023

    But he adds that the body who elects the Pope is the college of cardinals:
    Quote
    … based on a millennial practice sanctioned by specific canonical norms and confirmed by an explicit provision of the current Code of Canon Law (Canon 349), this body is made up of the College of Cardinals of Holy Roman Church…
    Confirming therefore the norm of the current Code of Canon Law (cf. Canon 349), which reflects the millennial practice of the Church, I once more affirm that the College of electors of the Supreme Pontiff is composed solely of the Cardinals of Holy Roman Church.
    In them one finds expressed in a remarkable synthesis the two aspects which characterize the figure and office of the Roman Pontiff: Roman, because identified with the Bishop of the Church in Rome and thus closely linked to the clergy of this City, represented by the Cardinals of the presbyteral and diaconal titles of Rome, and to the Cardinal Bishops of the suburbicarian Sees; Pontiff of the universal Church, because called to represent visibly the unseen Pastor who leads his whole flock to the pastures of eternal life. The universality of the Church is clearly expressed in the very composition of the College of Cardinals, whose members come from every continent.
    Speaking to LifeSiteNews about the reported conclave changes, and a Pope’s power over the conclave rules, canonist Father Gerald Murray noted that “the Pope has the power and authority to change the rules governing the selection of his successor.”

    The Pope “also has the power and authority to change the composition of the College of Cardinals, including changing the requirements for membership in the college, even if,” continued Murray, “such changes would destroy the nature of the college as a group of bishops, and by exception of some priests, according to canon 351, 1.”

    Murray highlighted how, should the rumored reforms for lay electors be requested, then the current version of Canon Law would not suffice. “If lay persons and consecrated religious were admitted to the College of Cardinals, then Book II, Chapter III of the Code of Canon Law would have to be re-written to specify the various canonical provisions that by nature can only apply to those cardinals who are in Holy Orders, and to determine what other provisions apply to both ordained cardinals and to non-ordained male and female lay and consecrated religious cardinals.”

    Continuing, Murray defended the technical possibility of Pope Francis effecting the rumored changes:
    Quote
    He also has the power and authority to determine, as an alternative, that the election of his successors would be carried out by a conclave that consists of both cardinals and non-cardinals. In this scenario, the non-cardinal electors would not be members of the College of Cardinals, but they would participate in an activity (a conclave) formerly reserved by law only to members of the College of Cardinals under the age of 80 years.

    It is worth noting is that the Synod on Synodality’s October 2023 synthesis report has already called for a change in Canon Law. As LifeSiteNews reported, the docuмent expressed an “urgent” call for Canon Law to be changed in order to allow more female governance roles.

    “The Holy Father has significantly increased the number of women in positions of responsibility in the Roman Curia. The same should happen at other levels of Church life. Canon law should be adapted accordingly,” the text reads, in a passage which passed 319–27.


    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Bergolio to change rules on “papal” conclave
    « Reply #4 on: November 06, 2023, 09:07:21 AM »
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  • Apart from Bergoglio's typical antics, the response is an emotional and gratuitous wave-of-the-hand dismissal of sedeprivationism ... without any substance behind it.

    It is not a wave of the hand dismissal. 


    It is totally crushing sedeprivationism underfoot.

    Sedeprivationism, Bp. Des Laurier's Cassiciacuм Thesis fence straddling from the 1970s to buy time,  by its proposition and tenets MUST conclude that the heretical sect of Vatican II is the true Catholic Church, which means the true Catholic Church has failed, which means the promise of Christ is false - and some out there have even proceeded to then incredibly attack Our Lord Himself!

    Versus: the sect of Vatican II and its false head are not in any way the true Roman Catholic Church and Pope but instead a defection from it en masse and is the counterfeit to be erected that was forewarned by Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich in the visions granted to her by God. 

    Which is consistent with all of the Magisterium especially "cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio" of Pope Paul IV in 1559 which explicitly condemns the tenets of sedeprivationism in Section 6: iii iv v.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20100807220239/http://sedevacantist.org/encyclicals/Paul04/cuмex.html
    May God bless you and keep you


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bergolio to change rules on “papal” conclave
    « Reply #5 on: November 06, 2023, 11:06:56 AM »
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  • Official denial has been issued by Ghirlanda. See pasted below from LifeSiteNews.

    A few were saying so in previous days, and today in retrospect more of the usual pundits are claiming that this was a classic planted leak for the Vatican to discover who among the insiders has been blabbing in general. Ah well, too bad for the Trad Inc. press on all those trusted sources....:incense: :popcorn:


    Lay voters at the conclave?

    However, The Remnant added that the College of Cardinals would no longer be the sole electors of the new pope. According to The Remnant’s report, Ghirlanda is looking to persuade Pope Francis to allow male and female members of the laity, along with religious sisters, to form up to 25 percent of those electing the pope.

    The Remnant cited “well-informed Vatican sources” in the report, attesting that Ghirlanda has been meeting occasionally with Pope Francis since spring, and meeting “weekly” from the end of August till early October.

    The Pillar also alluded to lay electors being involved, writing somewhat differently to The Remnant that “enior Roman clergy have told The Pillar that there have also been rumors that Pope Francis has considered the idea of inviting lay people to participate in general congregations.” The outlet added it was unable to confirm the veracity of this information.

    Additional testimony has been made supporting the weekend’s reports. LifeSiteNews understands that Italian Catholic news outlet Messa in Latino’s Vatican sources support the veracity of the reported conclave reforms.

    Who is Ghirlanda?

    A recently minted cardinal, Ghirlanda is Pope Francis’ go-to canon lawyer, having been heavily involved in Francis’ 2022 reform of the Roman Curia, Praedicate evangelium, which made waves by permitting laypeople to hold leading positions within the Curia.

    READ: Pope Francis reforms Roman Curia, says any layperson can hold ‘governance’ positions in Vatican

    More recently Ghirlanda has replaced Cardinal Raymond Burke as Patron of the Order of Malta.
    A former rector of Rome’s Jesuit-run Gregorian University, Ghirlanda has controversially argued that papal power in the Church is “unlimited.”

    According to Cardinal Gerhard Müller, during the 2022 consistory Ghirlanda presented the “theory of the papacy as an unlimited power of divine right over the whole Church, as if the Pope were a Deus in terris [God on earth].” Such a view, stated Müller, “contradicts the entire Catholic tradition, and especially the Second Vatican Council, that the bishops and priests have only the authority to perform sacramental acts, while the Pope is in sole possession of all jurisdiction, which he can delegate at will to clerics or laymen.”

    What change is possible?

    Following the emergence of Saturday’s reports regarding reforming papal conclave procedures, consternation broke out amongst Catholics in response to the news. Indeed, Canon 349 of the current 1983 Code of Canon Law stipulates that it is only the cardinals who elect a new pope.

    The canon reads: In his introduction to Universi Dominici Gregis, Pope John Paul II notes that “it is in fact an indisputable principle that the Roman Pontiff has the right to define and adapt to changing times the manner of designating the person called to assume the Petrine succession in the Roman See.”
    But he adds that the body who elects the Pope is the college of cardinals: Speaking to LifeSiteNews about the reported conclave changes, and a Pope’s power over the conclave rules, canonist Father Gerald Murray noted that “the Pope has the power and authority to change the rules governing the selection of his successor.”

    The Pope “also has the power and authority to change the composition of the College of Cardinals, including changing the requirements for membership in the college, even if,” continued Murray, “such changes would destroy the nature of the college as a group of bishops, and by exception of some priests, according to canon 351, 1.”

    Murray highlighted how, should the rumored reforms for lay electors be requested, then the current version of Canon Law would not suffice. “If lay persons and consecrated religious were admitted to the College of Cardinals, then Book II, Chapter III of the Code of Canon Law would have to be re-written to specify the various canonical provisions that by nature can only apply to those cardinals who are in Holy Orders, and to determine what other provisions apply to both ordained cardinals and to non-ordained male and female lay and consecrated religious cardinals.”

    Continuing, Murray defended the technical possibility of Pope Francis effecting the rumored changes:
    It is worth noting is that the Synod on Synodality’s October 2023 synthesis report has already called for a change in Canon Law. As LifeSiteNews reported, the docuмent expressed an “urgent” call for Canon Law to be changed in order to allow more female governance roles.

    “The Holy Father has significantly increased the number of women in positions of responsibility in the Roman Curia. The same should happen at other levels of Church life. Canon law should be adapted accordingly,” the text reads, in a passage which passed 319–27.
    Why should anyone believe what a Vatican II "prelate" says?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergolio to change rules on “papal” conclave
    « Reply #6 on: November 06, 2023, 11:33:28 AM »
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  • It is not a wave of the hand dismissal.


    It is totally crushing sedeprivationism underfoot.

    Sedeprivationism, Bp. Des Laurier's Cassiciacuм Thesis fence straddling from the 1970s to buy time,  by its proposition and tenets MUST conclude that the heretical sect of Vatican II is the true Catholic Church, which means the true Catholic Church has failed, which means the promise of Christ is false - and some out there have even proceeded to then incredibly attack Our Lord Himself!

    Versus: the sect of Vatican II and its false head are not in any way the true Roman Catholic Church and Pope but instead a defection from it en masse and is the counterfeit to be erected that was forewarned by Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich in the visions granted to her by God.

    Which is consistent with all of the Magisterium especially "cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio" of Pope Paul IV in 1559 which explicitly condemns the tenets of sedeprivationism in Section 6: iii iv v.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20100807220239/http://sedevacantist.org/encyclicals/Paul04/cuмex.html

    Posted by an ignoramus with an agenda (driven by emotion).  These objections are thoroughly dealt with by people like Bishop Sanborn, who's very well qualified to do so, and Bishop Guerard was only arguably the top theologian in the Church prior to Vatican II.  So for a clown like this to simply claim that it's "crushed underfood" borders on the ridiculous.

    Whoever this tool is doesn't recognize the legislative nature of cuм Excuм Ex was in fact providing the requisite Church authority for removing from office automatically that is required by the sedeprivationist thesis.  Unfortunately for them, St. Pius X effectively rescinded those provisions.

    Straight SVism has some very serious problems, as outlined very clearly by Bishop Sanborn and many others.  You can't have people like Father Cekada's "Aunt Helen" or "Viva Cristo Rey" here waking up one morning and deciding that a pope isn't the pope.  I knew one clown he decided that Pius IX was a non-pope because he concluded that there was something heretical in his teaching.  Church authority must play a role, and the seeds of sedeprivationism are in St. Robert Bellarmine, and most certainly adhered to by Cajetan and John of St. Thomas ... all eminent theologians, to say nothing about the qualifications of Bishop Guerard des Lauriers.

    But we have this clown blustering here about how it's "crushed underfood" due to a misinterpretation of cuм ex as being a doctrinal statement.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergolio to change rules on “papal” conclave
    « Reply #7 on: November 06, 2023, 11:39:00 AM »
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  • On top of that, this pales in comparison to Bergoglio's actual doctrinal errors, and yet this is somehow what gets his dander up.  Pope are entitled to change the papal election process.  There's nothing in Divine Law preventing a pope from adding non-Cardinals to a papal election.  At one point, conclaves respected vetoes from various secular officials.  At one point, the clergy and faithful of Rome selected the Pope.  At one point, they were replaced by Cardinals.


    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Bergolio to change rules on “papal” conclave
    « Reply #8 on: November 06, 2023, 11:56:21 AM »
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  • And to Lad's point, if the pope has absolute authority, who is to say that he cannot appoint a "lay" cardinal?  If we can have cardinal deacons, why not "lay" cardinals?  In theory the pope could do away with the college of cardinals and say, OK, now the collection of presidents of all the Catholic colleges in the world will elect the next pope.
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    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Bergolio to change rules on “papal” conclave
    « Reply #9 on: November 06, 2023, 12:21:15 PM »
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  • And to Lad's point, if the pope has absolute authority, who is to say that he cannot appoint a "lay" cardinal?  If we can have cardinal deacons, why not "lay" cardinals?  In theory the pope could do away with the college of cardinals and say, OK, now the collection of presidents of all the Catholic colleges in the world will elect the next pope.

    There have been lay cardinals in the past. If I remember correctly, there was at least one in the 19th century.

    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: Bergolio to change rules on “papal” conclave
    « Reply #10 on: November 06, 2023, 04:37:19 PM »
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  • Why should anyone believe what a Vatican II "prelate" says?

    No one said we should "believe" what Ghirlanda said, much less ascribe any worth to his saying it. But are we not even to believe that he did say it at all? :confused:

    It's the latest volley in another shameful episode from a shameful "papacy", granted. For that reason, the paper trail is of note. (As if hardly any of the threads on CI ever revolve around disputing whether some public figure did or didn't say/sign/attest to/agree with/disagree with/etc. whatever at some previous time....)

    We have this thread, I saw a news item updating the subject line, I added it to the thread.
    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bergolio to change rules on “papal” conclave
    « Reply #11 on: November 06, 2023, 04:58:27 PM »
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  • No one said we should "believe" what Ghirlanda said, much less ascribe any worth to his saying it. But are we not even to believe that he did say it at all? :confused:

    It's the latest volley in another shameful episode from a shameful "papacy", granted. For that reason, the paper trail is of note. (As if hardly any of the threads on CI ever revolve around disputing whether some public figure did or didn't say/sign/attest to/agree with/disagree with/etc. whatever at some previous time....)

    We have this thread, I saw a news item updating the subject line, I added it to the thread.
    But your post didn't appear to be just an update.  It seemed more like an opportunity to take a jab at those who reported the earlier version of the story.  If not, why the anti-"Trad Inc" comments and the popcorn emoji?

    Perhaps I just don't understand your posts.  Something similar happened when you posted in the Vigano thread.

    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: Bergolio to change rules on “papal” conclave
    « Reply #12 on: November 06, 2023, 05:48:30 PM »
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  • But your post didn't appear to be just an update.  It seemed more like an opportunity to take a jab at those who reported the earlier version of the story.  If not, why the anti-"Trad Inc" comments and the popcorn emoji?

    Perhaps I just don't understand your posts.  Something similar happened when you posted in the Vigano thread.

    "Trad Inc." as in the full spectrum media machine from NO all the way to SV and everyone in between that makes a living off of reporting on these things, as well as all the prolific social media freelancers. Hence the popcorn emoji. Hence my comment to begin with at 8:41 A.M. that this episode might have been a Vatican inside job distraction to root out their own leak issues.

    I don't understand how reposting in full something that was published this morning on a well-known news site was in any way "taking a jab" at anyone, other than the Vatican and all those journalists. I like unredacted things to read. I like to think that maybe others here, both members and guests, like to see relevant information too.
    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bergolio to change rules on “papal” conclave
    « Reply #13 on: November 06, 2023, 07:23:13 PM »
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  • "Trad Inc." as in the full spectrum media machine from NO all the way to SV and everyone in between that makes a living off of reporting on these things, as well as all the prolific social media freelancers. Hence the popcorn emoji. Hence my comment to begin with at 8:41 A.M. that this episode might have been a Vatican inside job distraction to root out their own leak issues.

    I don't understand how reposting in full something that was published this morning on a well-known news site was in any way "taking a jab" at anyone, other than the Vatican and all those journalists. I like unredacted things to read. I like to think that maybe others here, both members and guests, like to see relevant information too.
    Ok so I was correct.  It was a jab at the reporters. Except we really don't know if the story is untrue.

    Offline Univocity

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    Re: Bergolio to change rules on “papal” conclave
    « Reply #14 on: December 02, 2023, 08:44:55 PM »
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  •  Bishop Guerard was only arguably the top theologian in the Church prior to Vatican II.  
    I'm curious: what would qualify Des Lauriers as a contender for top theologian prior to Vatican 2?  I've heard similar things before, but it seems quite exaggerated.  His greatest theological achievement that I know of was participating in the Ponfitical Commison in preparation for the dogma of the Assumption.  But it was Fr Charles Balic who headed this commision, and also the International Scotistic Commission  in addition to founding the Pontifical Academy of Mary.

    I dont mean to belittle Des Lauriers here, but it seems difficult to imagine his name even appearing alongside names like Balic, Roschini, Ciappi, Lagrange, Bonnefoy, etc prior to the council.  I could see arguing thay he was the most eminent theologian AFTER the council since so few rejected vatican 2...  but I've only personally seen his name once in an obscure footnote in any pre-Vatican 2 theological text. if you have some further knowledge on his works and publications prior to Vatican 2 I would love to look into them. Thanks