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Author Topic: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II  (Read 45515 times)

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In calling Luther a Catholic Priest, I am not saying he professed the true faith - the man was an abominable heretic. What I am doing is stating a fact of faith in virtue of the indelible character that the sacrament of holy orders imprints on the soul of all priests - and only on the souls of all priests. Even now that character remains - and will forever remain, marking him as having been a Catholic priest forever, which only adds to his suffering.

This is something 6 year old Catholic children are taught as part of their catechism, not sure what there is about it you cannot accept.

Stop creating strawmen Stubborn, everyone here knows that Holy Orders leave an indelible mark upon the soul of a priest. There is an important distinction between a priest and a Catholic priest. A priest is anyone who has been validly ordained. A Catholic priest is a priest who also possesses the supernatural virtue of Faith, the Catholic Faith. Would you really refer to an Eastern "Orthodox" priest as a "Catholic priest", because they have valid orders? Come on, that's just absurd.

Think about this hypothetical scenario: you see an Eastern "Orthodox" priest walking down the street, and you turn to your 14 year-old son, and say to him "look, son, there is a Catholic priest"... your son looks in wonder and admiration. A few weeks later, on a Sunday, your son is walking down the street again, this time alone, and sees the same priest that his bad-willed heretic Daddy called a "Catholic priest", walking to the Church to say the "Divine Liturgy". He follows him there and takes part in the sacrilegious liturgy and receives Communion, after being deceived by his heretic Father into thinking it is "Catholic" (once a priest always a priest, right?), and therefore fine to participate in. This is just one potential scandal your abominable dishonesty could cause.

Objection: Martin Luther was at one point in time a professed Catholic monk, therefore he is different to an Eastern "Orthodox" priest, who has never professed the Catholic Faith.

Reply to Objection: When the Eastern "Orthodox" are baptized as infants, they are made members of the Catholic Church and receive the supernatural virtue of Faith through the sacrament of baptism. They are only excommunicated from the Church when they commit the sin of heresy or schism at a later age, at some point in time after they have obtained the use of reason. Therefore, they are former(!) Catholics, just the same as Martin Luther was.

Martin Luther was not a Catholic, and neither are you.


Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Martin Luther was not a Catholic, and neither are you.
^^This is what Pax wasted his time posting about in his last few excellent posts.

At any rate master, how would I become a Catholic? Vow that the Chair is Vacant, then make a public abjuration to that affect here on CI, then go to confession? :facepalm:


Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Reply to Objection: When the Eastern "Orthodox" are baptized as infants, they are made members of the Catholic Church and receive the supernatural virtue of Faith through the sacrament of baptism. They are only excommunicated from the Church when they commit the sin of heresy or schism at a later age, at some point in time after they have obtained the use of reason. Therefore, they are former(!) Catholics, just the same as Martin Luther was.
"Excommunicated from the Church?" Where did you get this phrase? Makes it sound like they are banished or expelled from the Church.

Excommunication, depending on the censure, basically means one may not partake in the sacraments or activities (if a priest, he cannot celebrate Mass, preach or administer the sacraments etc., or laymen cannot be an usher, sing in the choir, etc.) because they have committed a mortal sin to which is attached the censure of excommunication.

Excommunication is a censure primarily intended to be medicinal, a stern warning prompting the sinner to repent. These sinners still have all the obligations of a Catholic but none of the privileges - until they repent. But it is a censure due to mortal sin, not a banishment of the sinner from the Church.

Offline Ladislaus

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But [excommunication] is a censure due to mortal sin, not a banishment of the sinner from the Church.

Garbage.  Excommunication puts one outside the body of the Church, per St. Robert Bellarmine and pretty much everyone else.  Being barred from the Sacraments IS in fact to be outside the Church.  You make stuff up as it suits your half-deranged fantasy (and heretical ecclesiology).  Try to read St. Robert Bellarmine and some other Catholic theologians from time to time instead of just making this stuff up out of thin air.