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Author Topic: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II  (Read 39434 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Indeed it is beautiful, yet the discussion is not about the beauty of the quote but its truth that heretics are not part of the Church. They are outside of it. A truth which you obstinate deny.

Denzinger, Sources of Catholic Dogma, 13th ed., no. 423, pg. 167
https://u1lib.org/book/14465091/e4a377
Thanks.
Also, I was hoping to be wrong, but as it turns out I did know you would find it impossible to accept that only Catholics can use the sacrament of confession, therefore only Catholics guilty of the mortal sin of heresy and want to repent can go to confession. Sad day.
"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline DigitalLogos

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Thanks.
Also, I was hoping to be wrong, but as it turns out I did know you would find it impossible to accept that only Catholics can use the sacrament of confession, therefore only Catholics guilty of the mortal sin of heresy and want to repent can go to confession. Sad day.
Heretics are not Catholics until they abjure their errors. As three other people have told you. Get behind me Satan
"Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

"In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

"A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


Offline Stubborn

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Heretics are not Catholics until they abjure their errors. As three other people have told you. Get behind me Satan
See, the truth always comes out eventually.

Also, dozens of other sedes before those three other sedes said the same wrong thing. The Church is not a democracy, there really is no strength in numbers when it comes to error.
"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline Pax Vobis

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Quote
Heretics are not Catholics until they abjure their errors.
:facepalm:  Correction:  Formal heretics.  Even MHFM admits there are different types of heresy.

Offline Ladislaus

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:facepalm:  Correction:  Formal heretics.  Even MHFM admits there are different types of heresy.

Depends on semantics.  Many theologians don't consider material error to be "heresy" and would not classify those in material error as "heretics" at all.  I read a big discussion on this in one scholastic theology manual.


Offline DigitalLogos

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Depends on semantics.  Many theologians don't consider material error to be "heresy" and would not classify those in material error as "heretics" at all.  I read a big discussion on this in one scholastic theology manual.
I don't consider it heresy either, and I made that clear already.

See, the truth always comes out eventually.

Also, dozens of other sedes before those three other sedes said the same wrong thing. The Church is not a democracy, there really is no strength in numbers when it comes to error.
What are you on about?

This:
Heretics are not Catholics until they abjure their errors. As three other people have told you. Get behind me Satan
Does not contradict this:

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Council of Florence (1442: DS 1351): "It firmly believes, professes and preaches, that none who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jєωs and heretics and schismatics, can partake of eternal life, but they will go into eternal fire... unless before the end of life they will have been joined to it [the Church] and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body has such force that only for those who remain in it are the sacraments of the Church profitable for salvation;"


I never denied that heretics can convert and return to the Church. Not once. Admission of the sacraments being only accessible to Catholics doesn't contradict that either, as to abjure the error is to re-enter the fold as a dead member. 

Antipope Francis, for example, has never done such and he remains outside the Church, therefore, he has no right to command in the Church nor can he be the Pope. Further, he was a manifest FORMAL heretic before his "election", so either way its impossible that he is the true Pope. The same goes for his predecessors after Pius XII.
"Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

"In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

"A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

Offline Stubborn

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I never denied that heretics can convert and return to the Church. Not once. Admission of the sacraments being only accessible to Catholics doesn't contradict that either, as to abjure the error is to re-enter the fold as a dead member.

Antipope Francis, for example, has never done such and he remains outside the Church, therefore, he has no right to command in the Church nor can he be the Pope. Further, he was a manifest FORMAL heretic before his "election", so either way its impossible that he is the true Pope. The same goes for his predecessors after Pius XII.
You play with words DL, being unclear was the giveaway.

To be forgiven does not require a prior public abjuration, period. The pope, of all people, is as free to walk into the confessional to be absolved as you and I are, as the trad couple I posted about are - were he to have the mind to, which he doesn't and, due to the nature of the sin likely never will - such is the nature of the sin of heresy.

OTOH, if the pope chose to make a public abjuration, and like you I think he certainly should, he could do it any time, but who is going to enforce it upon the pope even if it were required? The only one who could make him do it is the pope's confessor, but he is under no obligation to make him do it.

"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline Pax Vobis

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Quote
Many theologians don't consider material error to be "heresy" and would not classify those in material error as "heretics" at all.
My beef is not with theologians but with those on this site (and MHFM) who repeatedly generalize a complex topic such as heresy.  They lump all manner of errors into one big bucket and call it 'heresy'.  Then they build upon this faulty foundation the next step, which is to (personally) throw out any and all "heretics" from office, with not even so much as a hearing or a repudiation (which, by the way, is a canon law requirement and also taught by St Paul).  They act as the canon lawyer, judge and jury...all the while, being simple laymen.  It's ridiculous and beyond anything in church history.


Offline Stubborn

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They act as the canon lawyer, judge and jury...all the while, being simple laymen.  It's ridiculous and beyond anything in church history.
I would say this is to be expected whenever the most basic fundamentals of the faith are ignored rather than applied.
"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline Pax Vobis

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Church History examples:
1.  Martin Luther (one of the most famous and public heretics in all of history), even after nailing his 100 thesis to the door of a church, was not excommunicated until a OVER A YEAR later, after multiple talks, hearings, etc.  Does this matter to some in our day?  No.  They can throw out any and all persons they deem necessary.  No matter that they are simple laymen, monks, or priests, with no jurisdiction, no canon law training, and not one iota of ecclesiastical authority.

2.  Those who correctly point out that Fr Feeney's excommunication was faulty (and therefore probably null), in that he requested a public hearing with rome officials (as is his right under canon law) but was ignored.  Yet these same people don't blink an eye when it comes to deciding that this or that priest, bishop or pope is no longer in office, ignoring all pretenses of a trial, or canon laws, or any kind of procedure whatsoever.

It's shocking in its lack of common sense.  It's a (sad) triumph of theory over reality, where "imaginary righteousness" takes precedent over the laws of justice.

Offline DigitalLogos

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Church History examples:
1.  Martin Luther (one of the most famous and public heretics in all of history), even after nailing his 100 thesis to the door of a church, was not excommunicated until a OVER A YEAR later, after multiple talks, hearings, etc.  Does this matter to some in our day?  No.  They can throw out any and all persons they deem necessary.  No matter that they are simple laymen, monks, or priests, with no jurisdiction, no canon law training, and not one iota of ecclesiastical authority.

2.  Those who correctly point out that Fr Feeney's excommunication was faulty (and therefore probably null), in that he requested a public hearing with rome officials (as is his right under canon law) but was ignored.  Yet these same people don't blink an eye when it comes to deciding that this or that priest, bishop or pope is no longer in office, ignoring all pretenses of a trial, or canon laws, or any kind of procedure whatsoever.

It's shocking in its lack of common sense.  It's a (sad) triumph of theory over reality, where "imaginary righteousness" takes precedent over the laws of justice.

Here's the thing that neither of you don't seem to be getting, and I apologize for the lack of clarity: I am operating on the principle elaborated by St. Robert Bellarmine in De Romano Pontifice, II, 30:

Quote
“… for men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple, and condemn him as a heretic.

A point which has been codified in the 1917 Code:

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Canon 2200 § 2. Positing an external violation of the law, dolus [i.e. malice] in the external forum is presumed until the contrary is proven.


It is not a simple matter of the sin of heresy, as it is undeniable that heretics can become Catholics again and have a right to the Sacrament of penance. But a matter of the state they occupy which ipso-facto eliminates their exercise of office through excommunication:

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Canon 2340 § 1. If anyone from an obdurate spirit stays for a year under the censure of excommunication, he is suspected of heresy.

§ 2. If a cleric stays for six months under the censure of suspension, he shall be gravely warned; and if, a month from the warning having passed, he has not withdrawn from contumacy, he shall be deprived of benefices and offices that he might have had in the Church.

The fact that these Antipopes have committed many heresies in the external forum, as Stubborn admitted that they are heretics, my presuming their loss of office follows on this fact because their obduracy has persisted for years. It is not a matter of waiting for a formal declaration, or canonical judgment. Once one is seen to be a heretic in the external forum, then it is acceptable to condemn him as such.

And given the Church teachings I have quoted previously, these men are firmly outside of the Church and cannot legitimately hold their offices.
"Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

"In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

"A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


Offline DigitalLogos

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And we furthermore cannot sit here and ignore the fact that these men have publicly defected from their offices, and therefore, are excommunicated automatically as heretics:


Quote
Canon 188: Any office becomes vacant upon the fact and without any declaration by tacit resignation recognized by the law itself if a cleric:
4.° Publicly defects from the Catholic faith;


A "defection" here would include any public act of heresy (a denial of Catholic dogma, not just simple good-willed error). Which we know every single one of these Antipopes post-Pius XII have done.
"Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

"In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

"A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

Offline Ladislaus

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1.  Martin Luther (one of the most famous and public heretics in all of history), even after nailing his 100 thesis to the door of a church, was not excommunicated until a OVER A YEAR later, after multiple talks, hearings, etc. 

Just because his departure from the Church wasn't formalized until a year after he initially defected from the faith does not mean he was still a member of the Church (Siscoe & Salza are completely wrong).  St. Robert Bellarmine cites Pope Celestine, who wrote of Nestorius (who was only formally condemned about 3 years after his defection), that he ceased to have any authority from the moment that he began to "preach" heresy ... and that all his acts had been null and void.

This distinction actually speaks nicely to sedeprivationism, where the man had lost all authority (formal) even if he wasn't formally excommunicated / removed from office until later (material).

Offline DigitalLogos

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This distinction actually speaks nicely to sedeprivationism, where the man had lost all authority (formal) even if he wasn't formally excommunicated / removed from office until later (material).
It would, if it we were talking about a valid Pope falling into heresy and then losing office. The problem I see is that these Antipopes were never valid material to begin with, being manifest heretics prior to "election", and therefore have no office to speak of. Essentially the whole "impounded Pope-elect" idea I've seen some sedeprivs propose, specifically for Roncalli, Montini, Luciani, and Wojtyla, being valid bishops elected by true Cardinals; albeit, again, without office because of their manifest heresy. Ratzinger and Bergoglio, being that one is a valid priest but not bishop, and the latter is neither; cannot, from what I infer here, be proposed to even be Pope-elects.

So, perhaps the sedeprivationist thesis may have been possible for a time, say, up until JPII died. But after that point, you find yourself simply with a sede vacante.
"Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

"In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

"A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

Offline Ladislaus

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It would, if it we were talking about a valid Pope falling into heresy and then losing office. The problem I see is that these Antipopes were never valid material to begin with, being manifest heretics prior to "election", and therefore have no office to speak of. Essentially the whole "impounded Pope-elect" idea I've seen some sedeprivs propose, specifically for Roncalli, Montini, Luciani, and Wojtyla, being valid bishops elected by true Cardinals; albeit, again, without office because of their manifest heresy. Ratzinger and Bergoglio, being that one is a valid priest but not bishop, and the latter is neither; cannot, from what I infer here, be proposed to even be Pope-elects.

So, perhaps the sedeprivationist thesis may have been possible for a time, say, up until JPII died. But after that point, you find yourself simply with a sede vacante.

Well, I don't believe they were even materially valid due to the office being materially held by Cardinal Siri (Pope Gregory XVII) until his death in 1989.

But there's a clear reality to the material-formal distinction.  Let's say the Siri thesis is not correct, these men would have had the Church's designation to the papacy ... which was never repudiated.  Had they converted some time after their election, they would then have formally assumed the office.  Heretics cannot formally assume or exercise office, but they can in fact be designated for office.

We have many heretical bishops even before Vatican II.  Let's take Cardinal Cushing, for instance.  Obvious manifest heretic.  Due to the fact that he remained designated for office by Pius XII, he did in fact to some extent remain in office.  He was able to still serve as a conduit for jurisdiction for the priests who were subject to him.  He could appoint priests to be pastors.  And so on.