Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II  (Read 39952 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 14804
  • Reputation: +6109/-913
  • Gender: Male
How about this case? It's a true story that happened recently.....

A traditional Catholic husband and wife (14 kids) who practiced the traditional faith for the last 50 years or so, apparently lost their ever loving minds and  decided to "convert" to the Russian Orthodox church. Before RO priests and prelates, a ceremony was held where they took solemn vows renouncing their baptism and everything Catholic that disagreed with RO, then they were baptized and welcomed into the RO.


It was with only the best of intentions that these poor fools left the Church. They believe they've left the Church because that's what they did. They believe that they are now RO so they are no longer Catholic. Believing that they finally found the truth, they decided to purposely and certainly place themselves outside of the Church.

Now, while Holy Mother the Church teaches us to avoid these Apostate, schismatic heretics, *She* calls on them to return to the Church, that is, She calls on them to get to confession and amend their lives.

The process for this is so simple that all they need to do is to enter the confessional, just the same as they did regularly for the past 50 years. Not only *can* they do this, they must do it for their hope of salvation. This simple, beautiful option which can only be partaken of by Catholics, remains open to these Apostate, schismatic heretics for as long as they live because what they did was commit mortal sin - even though they had good intentions.

The nature of the sin they committed makes it unlikely that they will ever make use of the sacrament of penance and return to a life of faith within the Church, but as long as they live (which being in their upper 70s may not be much longer) there's hope because with God, all things are possible. Please pray for them.
"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 46914
  • Reputation: +27782/-5164
  • Gender: Male
The first part, that says: "all baptized persons are parts or members of the true Church," is incomplete, therefore not the whole truth which results in being cause for confusion.

Very simply, baptized prot babies are members, but only until the age of reason. If they never become Catholic after the age of reason, then they remain outside of the Church unless or until they do become Catholic.

The bolded is only true if apostates / heretics had the Catholic faith before falling into the sin of heresy.

The distinction is, *having the Catholic faith*, because this is what makes one Catholic. To lose the faith by whatever means is itself a sin because to lose the faith is to not believe in the Church, which is Christ, see John 16:9 (" And when he is come, he will convict the world of sin, and of justice, and of judgment. [9]Of sin: because they believed not in me").

So now you've made up your own position.  Claiming that baptized Prot babies cease to be members of the Church contradicts the once-Catholic-always-Catholic-by-virtue-of-the-Baptismal-character position you've been promoting all this time.


Offline Comrade

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 198
  • Reputation: +89/-19
  • Gender: Male

The process for this is so simple that all they need to do is to enter the confessional, just the same as they did regularly for the past 50 years. Not only *can* they do this, they must do it for their hope of salvation. This simple, beautiful option which can only be partaken of by Catholics, remains open to these Apostate, schismatic heretics for as long as they live because what they did was commit mortal sin - even though they had good intentions.



If they formally communicated to the local ordinary of their rejection of the Catholic membership, they can't just simply walk into any confessional. They would need to formally be received by the bishop. Of course, outside of a state of emergency.

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 14804
  • Reputation: +6109/-913
  • Gender: Male
So now you've made up your own position.  Claiming that baptized Prot babies cease to be members of the Church contradicts the once-Catholic-always-Catholic-by-virtue-of-the-Baptismal-character position you've been promoting all this time.
I posted what the Church has always taught. Please work on your reading comprehension, I did not claim that prot babies cease to be members of the Church. 

Keep stretching tho, keep that chair empty at all costs.

"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 46914
  • Reputation: +27782/-5164
  • Gender: Male
I posted what the Church has always taught. Please work on your reading comprehension, I did not claim that prot babies cease to be members of the Church.

Keep stretching tho, keep that chair empty at all costs.

Church has always taught my foot.  You made this up out of whole-cloth.  You put a couple of heretofore-unknown conditions on membership by Baptism that was held by Cajetan.


Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 14804
  • Reputation: +6109/-913
  • Gender: Male
If they formally communicated to the local ordinary of their rejection of the Catholic membership, they can't just simply walk into any confessional. They would need to formally be received by the bishop. Of course, outside of a state of emergency.
They were traditional Catholics, so they had no Ordinary, but if they did, they certainly would not communicate anything to him. And no, your requirement is that they need to be formally received by the bishop, that is not the Church's - as I have posted more than once in this thread already.

And yes, they can simply walk into any confessional the same as they did the previous 50 years. There is no other way for their sin to be certainly forgiven.
"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 14804
  • Reputation: +6109/-913
  • Gender: Male
Church has always taught my foot.  You made this up out of whole-cloth.  You put a couple of heretofore-unknown conditions on membership by Baptism that was held by Cajetan.
Have you ever heard of the word "Convert?"

What do you suppose it means?
"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline Comrade

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 198
  • Reputation: +89/-19
  • Gender: Male
They were traditional Catholics, so they had no Ordinary, but if they did, they certainly would not communicate anything to him. And no, your requirement is that they need to be formally received by the bishop, that is not the Church's - as I have posted more than once in this thread already.

And yes, they can simply walk into any confessional the same as they did the previous 50 years. There is no other way for their sin to be certainly forgiven.

Since when does "traditional Catholic" = no Ordinary. Isn't that one of the "R's" in "Recognize and Resist" position? 

Yes, Confession is necessary for forgiveness of sins. No one was arguing. In a strict sense, they will need to make a profession of Faith, certainly part of their penance. Doesn't necessarily have be public but once their former friends and acquaintances see them receiving communion, they might be scandalized and their conversion will eventually be made self-evident. And when you do make your rejection formal, this gets marked in your Baptismal records. So, I would think it would take another formal communication with your local ordinary to rectify the record. I know .....this a legalistic point of view and does not impact your membership of the Church.


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 46914
  • Reputation: +27782/-5164
  • Gender: Male
Have you ever heard of the word "Convert?"

What do you suppose it means?

What are you babbling about?  If someone needs to "convert" in addition to having the Baptismal character, that means that the Baptismal character doesn't suffice to retain membership in the Church as a consequence of heresy or schism.

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 14804
  • Reputation: +6109/-913
  • Gender: Male
Since when does "traditional Catholic" = no Ordinary. Isn't that one of the "R's" in "Recognize and Resist" position?

Yes, Confession is necessary for forgiveness of sins. No one was arguing. In a strict sense, they will need to make a profession of Faith, certainly part of their penance. Doesn't necessarily have be public but once their former friends and acquaintances see them receiving communion, they might be scandalized and their conversion will eventually be made self-evident. And when you do make your rejection formal, this gets marked in your Baptismal records. So, I would think it would take another formal communication with your local ordinary to rectify the record. I know .....this a legalistic point of view and does not impact your membership of the Church.
As I said: "...but if they did, they certainly would not communicate anything to him."

I am of the opinion that they've lost their minds in order to do what they did after all this time.

"R&R" is label that was coined by Fr. Cekada, so please feel free to make it mean whatever you wish. Not sure who coined "sedevacantist", which is derived from the Latin "sede vacante," which refers to the Chair of St. Peter when it is empty due to the death of a supreme pontiff, maybe it was coined by him as well. 

The problem with this whole subject, is that the most simple, basic and elementary tenets and truths of the faith, which are fundamental the faith, are either not known, forgotten, ignored or scoffed at as tho heretical. That's the main problem in my opinion.

Meanwhile, the sedes attempt to invoke and rely on papal teachings which they read into only what they believe, along with the opinions of some of the Fathers and some of the learned theologians - and some of the modernist opinions of theologians, in their effort to support sedevacantism.

But as it has always been and always will be, all that is taught by the Church can be likened to one doctrine. Not only does it all mean one thing, but it is, as it were, a single cloth woven from the top so that there are no seams, there is a perfect unity.

Therefore, any opinions, ideas or teachings that in any way teach contrary to any one of it’s doctrines, any part of this holy deposit, violates it’s holiness, the truth of God, tearing the cloth - which is what happens whenever the most basic and fundamental tenets of the faith are scoffed at as tho heretical.
"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 14804
  • Reputation: +6109/-913
  • Gender: Male
What are you babbling about?  If someone needs to "convert" in addition to having the Baptismal character, that means that the Baptismal character doesn't suffice to retain membership in the Church as a consequence of heresy or schism.
I gather that you do not see any difference whatsoever between a Catholic who falls into the sin of heresy, and one who never had the Catholic faith being a heretic. Do I have that right?
"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


Offline DigitalLogos

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8304
  • Reputation: +4718/-754
  • Gender: Male
  • Slave to the Sacred Heart
    • Twitter
Have you ever heard of the word "Convert?"

What do you suppose it means?
What I, or anyone else, supposes it means doesn't matter. What the Church teaches matters, and you've rejected that whole cloth by making up your own definition of the state of heretics and now you're trying to make up your own definition of conversion. This subterfuge to get your way is the mark of heresy The Council of Florence was clear, Pope Pius XII in Mystici Corporis was clear, as were all of the Papal and Magisterial teachings I've been quoting.

In all charity, you're a liar, a deceiver and a heretic.
"Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

"In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

"A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

Offline DigitalLogos

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8304
  • Reputation: +4718/-754
  • Gender: Male
  • Slave to the Sacred Heart
    • Twitter
From Denzinger (in case you want to try the whole "Dimondite" fallacy again):

Quote
Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208:
“By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics,
but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no
one is saved.”

"Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

"In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

"A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 14804
  • Reputation: +6109/-913
  • Gender: Male
What I, or anyone else, supposes it means doesn't matter. What the Church teaches matters, and you've rejected that whole cloth by making up your own definition of the state of heretics and now you're trying to make up your own definition of conversion. This subterfuge to get your way is the mark of heresy The Council of Florence was clear, Pope Pius XII in Mystici Corporis was clear, as were all of the Papal and Magisterial teachings I've been quoting.

In all charity, you're a liar, a deceiver and a heretic.
What is it with sedes never answering the question? smh



From Denzinger (in case you want to try the whole "Dimondite" fallacy again):

Quote
Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208:
“By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics,
but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no
one is saved.”6
Beautiful quote! Also, I would love to read the rest of Eius Exemplo but can't find it - do you have it?

Apparently you think a heretic pope makes the Catholic Church a Church of heretics. Got it.
"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline DigitalLogos

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8304
  • Reputation: +4718/-754
  • Gender: Male
  • Slave to the Sacred Heart
    • Twitter
Beautiful quote! Also, I would love to read the rest of Eius Exemplo but can't find it - do you have it?

Apparently you think a heretic pope makes the Catholic Church a Church of heretics. Got it.
Indeed it is beautiful, yet the discussion is not about the beauty of the quote but its truth that heretics are not part of the Church. They are outside of it. A truth which you obstinate deny.

Denzinger, Sources of Catholic Dogma, 13th ed., no. 423, pg. 167
https://u1lib.org/book/14465091/e4a377
"Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

"In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

"A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]