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Author Topic: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II  (Read 39961 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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I would disagree.. the Magisterium teaches that heretics are not in the Church and has never made the exception for occult heretics. That also would destroy the Unity of the Church.
No, that is not what the Magisterium teaches:

Trent's catechism: "Heretics and schismatics are excluded from the Church, because they have separated from her and belong to her only as deserters belong to the army from which they have deserted."

Although they belong to her only as deserters, the catechism says they still belong to her - in spite of their trying to get out of it.

Do you see where the magisterium teaches that heretics belong to her - and how they belong too her? I bolded it for you. If you see and understand this, then you will also see that the magisterium does not teach heretics are not in the Church - they still belong to her.

You need to remember that Christ established the Church to save all men, Our Lord knows that She is our only refuge and is eager to bring sinners into her fold so they can go to heaven, not banish the sinner so as to be sure they go straight to hell. Yet this latter is the attitude sedes consistently portray her as having.
 
"I say to you, that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance."

"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline Stubborn

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 Even now that character remains - and will forever remain, marking him as having been a Catholic priest forever, which only adds to his suffering.
I want to add..... And if he is in heaven, this mark adds to the greater glory of God and the priest's heavenly joy - forever.
"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


Offline DecemRationis

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I would disagree.. the Magisterium teaches that heretics are not in the Church and has never made the exception for occult heretics. That also would destroy the Unity of the Church.

There is an interesting article that was posted here from Msgr. Fenton, where he discusses the question of whether an occult heretic is a member of the Church:


AER Fenton - - The Library - Catholic Info (cathinfo.com)

I
t is an open question, though the common opinion is that they are. Yet many eminent theologians oppose that, and, as shown by Msgr. Fenton's article, it was still an open question as late as 1950, and certainly hasn't been settled since. 

Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

Offline Ladislaus

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There is an interesting article that was posted here from Msgr. Fenton, where he discusses the question of whether an occult heretic is a member of the Church:


AER Fenton - - The Library - Catholic Info (cathinfo.com)

I
t is an open question, though the common opinion is that they are. Yet many eminent theologians oppose that, and, as shown by Msgr. Fenton's article, it was still an open question as late as 1950, and certainly hasn't been settled since.



There's some history for minority opinions, and the opinion that occult heretics are outside the Church is in the extreme minority and has been all but abandoned.  It's not tenable to hold that occult heretics are not members of the Church due to the nature of the Church being a visible society.

Offline DecemRationis

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There's some history for minority opinions, and the opinion that occult heretics are outside the Church is in the extreme minority and has been all but abandoned.  It's not tenable to hold that occult heretics are not members of the Church due to the nature of the Church being a visible society.

That it is not "tenable" is your opinion. As I said, and Msgr. Fenton's article demonstrates, it is still an open question. Or would one be a "heretic" according to Lad to hold it? :laugh1:

Msgr. Fenton notes of the contrary opinion - i.e., that occult heretic's are not members - that it is "still the unsubdued opposition to St. Robert's thesis." See page 216 (emphasis added).

Stubborn, you might like to read page 209, where the view of Cajetan and others that "all baptized persons" are "parts or members of the true Church," and "that the baptismal character constituted even a public apostate or heretic a genuine member of the Church," is mentioned. He does say that Cajetan's opinion did not survive the Counter-Reformation period. Page 213.
Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


Offline Ladislaus

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That it is not "tenable" is your opinion. As I said, and Msgr. Fenton's article demonstrates, it is still an open question. Or would one be a "heretic" according to Lad to hold it? :laugh1:

No, in St. Robert Bellarmine's opinion.  I didn't say one was not permitted to hold it, just that it's not tenable due to Tridentine ecclesiology of the Church being a visible society.

Offline Ladislaus

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Stubborn, you might like to read page 209, where the view of Cajetan and others that "all baptized persons" are "parts or members of the true Church," and "that the baptismal character constituted even a public apostate or heretic a genuine member of the Church," is mentioned. He does say that Cajetan's opinion did not survive the Counter-Reformation period. Page 213.


I've pointed this out to Stubborn before.

Offline DecemRationis

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No, in St. Robert Bellarmine's opinion.  I didn't say one was not permitted to hold it, just that it's not tenable due to Tridentine ecclesiology of the Church being a visible society.

Right. It's your opinion that St. Robert's opinion is the correct one. 

This gets us somewhat closer to the topic under discussion, since it was also St. Robert's opinion (although some argue that) that a pope who is a manifest heretic is not a pop (although some dispute that). But has that been settled? If not . . . well, that's huge. And very pertinent to the issue, of course.

I know Fr. Kramer wrote a book about it in response to Sisco & Salza, which I have. I think he holds that the upshot of Vatican I indicates the matter has been settled. I'll go back and look. But, again, would that not be Fr. Kramer's opinion?
Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


Offline Ladislaus

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Right. It's your opinion that St. Robert's opinion is the correct one.

Yes, his opinion has plenty of weight and is rooted directly in Tridentine ecclesiology, where, in opposition to the Protestants, the Church is understood to be a visible society.  And it's also the opinion of the vast majority of theologians directly leading up to Vatican II.  That the contrary opinion is "unsubdued" simply means that it hasn't been officially condemned by the Church, not that it's a tenable opinion.

Offline Ladislaus

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This gets us somewhat closer to the topic under discussion, since it was also St. Robert's opinion (although some argue that) that a pope who is a manifest heretic is not a pop (although some dispute that). But has that been settled? If not . . . well, that's huge. And very pertinent to the issue, of course.

Regardless, the (minority) opinion that occult heretics are NOT members of the Church doesn't really help the side that claim a heretic can remain the pope.

Only the abandoned Cajetan opinion tenaciously held by Father Wathen and therefore Stubborn that the baptismal character alone is required might help that position.

Offline DecemRationis

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I've pointed this out to Stubborn before.

I would say that the fact that it is an "open question" means Cajetan's view is disfavored by theologians, etc., but not barred to a Catholic. What does "open" question mean? It means, you can only go with the theological views in vogue, despite churchmen, very distinguished like Cajetan, holding the view in the past?

One could argue that Pope Pius XII's formulation of "membership" bars the Cajetan view, but, as Feeneyites argue, it would also bar BOD, e.g.  the formula recognizes only the baptized as "true members," which it certainly did not, since Pius XII talked about it and it was the teaching of the ordinary Magisterium and theologians. They could be, as Stubborn argues, false members, or dead members in need of penance/confession.

I'm neither advocating for Stubborn's view nor against it. One thing this crisis requires us to do, in my view, is think, and rethink. Under the prevailing views in 1950 regarding indefectibility, etc., would anyone have thought this Conciliar reality possible?
Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


Offline DecemRationis

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Regardless, the (minority) opinion that occult heretics are NOT members of the Church doesn't really help the side that claim a heretic can remain the pope.


Agreed. 
Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

Offline DecemRationis

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Regardless, the (minority) opinion that occult heretics are NOT members of the Church doesn't really help the side that claim a heretic can remain the pope.

Only the abandoned Cajetan opinion tenaciously held by Father Wathen and therefore Stubborn that the baptismal character alone is required might help that position.

Let's look at an example you raise: the Augustinian view regarding non-baptized infants suffering minor "torments" in hell. What theologian opposed that view for hundreds, if not over a thousand, years before Limbo came along? 

I wouldn't necessarily dismiss an old view on an "open" question.
Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

Offline Ladislaus

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There are lots of opinions regarding the status of a heretic pope.  As I've said before, at the end of the day, I don't care about the issue since it won't be resolved by any of us here when it hasn't been completely settled by theologians.

What's at issue is whether the Holy Catholic Church can go corrupt in her doctrine and her public worship.  That is not possible.  How one wants to explain what happened in V2 outside of that will remain a disputed question.  I personally hold to the Siri explanation, so the notion of a heretical pope or non-pope doesn't even figure in, since these guys were never legitimately elected in the first place (at least before Benedict XVI).

Offline Stubborn

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That it is not "tenable" is your opinion. As I said, and Msgr. Fenton's article demonstrates, it is still an open question. Or would one be a "heretic" according to Lad to hold it? :laugh1:

Msgr. Fenton notes of the contrary opinion - i.e., that occult heretic's are not members - that it is "still the unsubdued opposition to St. Robert's thesis." See page 216 (emphasis added).

Stubborn, you might like to read page 209, where the view of Cajetan and others that "all baptized persons" are "parts or members of the true Church," and "that the baptismal character constituted even a public apostate or heretic a genuine member of the Church," is mentioned. He does say that Cajetan's opinion did not survive the Counter-Reformation period. Page 213.

The first part, that says: "all baptized persons are parts or members of the true Church," is incomplete, therefore not the whole truth which results in being cause for confusion.

Very simply, baptized prot babies are members, but only until the age of reason. If they never become Catholic after the age of reason, then they remain outside of the Church unless or until they do become Catholic.

The bolded is only true if apostates / heretics had the Catholic faith before falling into the sin of heresy.

The distinction is, *having the Catholic faith*, because this is what makes one Catholic. To lose the faith by whatever means is itself a sin because to lose the faith is to not believe in the Church, which is Christ, see John 16:9 (" And when he is come, he will convict the world of sin, and of justice, and of judgment. [9]Of sin: because they believed not in me").

"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse