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Author Topic: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II  (Read 39931 times)

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Offline trad123

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Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
« Reply #225 on: June 20, 2022, 10:35:05 PM »
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    • Canon 731:


    Quote
    [. . .]

    § 2. It is forbidden that the Sacraments of the Church be ministered to heretics and schismatics, even if they ask for them and are in good faith, unless beforehand, rejecting their errors, they are reconciled with the Church.


    AKA abjuration.
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
    « Reply #226 on: June 20, 2022, 10:36:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: trad123 on June 20, 2022, 10:32:17 PM
    Abjuration


    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01044d.htm




    Abjuration  ►  Sacrament of penance
    In case someone tries to play smart penance in the non VII sect form includes release from excom etc
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    Regard all of my posts as unfounded slander, heresy, theologically specious etc
    I accept Church teaching on Implicit Baptism of Desire.
    Francis is Pope.
    NO is a good Mass.
    Not an ironic sig.

    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
    « Reply #227 on: June 20, 2022, 10:38:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: trad123 on June 20, 2022, 10:35:05 PM
    Canon 731:



    AKA abjuration.
    Yes, as an Anglican heretic I got abjured -> absolved when I was received. Probably Stubborn is cradle.
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    Regard all of my posts as unfounded slander, heresy, theologically specious etc
    I accept Church teaching on Implicit Baptism of Desire.
    Francis is Pope.
    NO is a good Mass.
    Not an ironic sig.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
    « Reply #228 on: June 20, 2022, 10:39:03 PM »
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    • It's obvious that a Catholic that became a heretic, or a schismatic, or an apostate, which is to say they weren't Catholic anymore, if they abjure their error prior to the sacrament of penance, they become once more Catholic, albeit dead members, until the sacrament is received or if they manage to make a perfect act of contrition.
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
    « Reply #229 on: June 20, 2022, 10:39:51 PM »
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    • Is Stubborn going to remain so stubborn as to be pernicious?
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline augustineeens

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    Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
    « Reply #230 on: June 20, 2022, 10:41:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: bodeens on June 20, 2022, 10:36:10 PM
    In case someone tries to play smart penance in the non VII sect form includes release from excom etc
    Get that, Stubborn? A heretic has to be reconciled with the Church, and be released from their excommunication (latae sententiae), before they even go to confession. Dead members who are in mortal sin do not need to do this, because they have never left the Church!
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
    « Reply #231 on: June 20, 2022, 10:52:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 19, 2022, 03:43:05 PM
    Manifest Heretics in the external forum are required to make an abjuration of heresy before they can be admitted back to the Sacraments. Those who commit heresy in the internal forum (e.g. occult heretics) can simply go to Confession.  In terms of membership in the Church, there's a huge difference  between a manifest heretic and an occult heretic.  Occult heresy, as per St. Robert Bellarmine, does not sever from the Church, whereas manifest heresy does.

    Right, I mentioned this yesterday (in bold).  Those who commit the sin of heresy secretly are not required to abjure, as far as I know, as if ... let's say someone embraced a heretical notion in his mind only and never manifested it.

    Manifest heresy severs from the body of the Church, and it requires a manifest retraction / abjuration of the same in order for membership in the Church to be visibly restored.
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    Offline augustineeens

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    Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
    « Reply #232 on: June 20, 2022, 11:18:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 20, 2022, 10:52:10 PM
    Right, I mentioned this yesterday (in bold).  Those who commit the sin of heresy secretly are not required to abjure, as far as I know, as if ... let's say someone embraced a heretical notion in his mind only and never manifested it.

    Manifest heresy severs from the body of the Church, and it requires a manifest retraction / abjuration of the same in order for membership in the Church to be visibly restored.
    I would disagree.. the Magisterium teaches that heretics are not in the Church and has never made the exception for occult heretics. That also would destroy the Unity of the Church. 
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
    « Reply #233 on: June 21, 2022, 04:58:21 AM »
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    • Quote from: augustineeens on June 20, 2022, 10:03:56 PM
    Right... so you hold that a Catholic who becomes a heretic, is still a Catholic. So then you would logically have to conclude that Martin Luther remained a Catholic when he became a heretic, he's just a "Catholic in mortal sin" according to you, right? Clearly, you reject the Unity of the Church. It's a dogma that the Church is one in Faith. You reject that. You are not a Catholic.
    Have you figured out which of the Divine Laws is being broken by having a heretical pope yet? Or will you just keep ignoring the question? 

    "Thou art a priest forever according to the Order of Melchizedek." Ever heard of this?
    Luther stood before God as a Catholic priest in the state of (as far as we know) mortal sin. The sin you refer to is a sin against the faith, i.e. the sin of heresy.

    The character of the sacrament of baptism is just as indelible, just as ineradicable as that of Holy Orders. One who is not a Catholic cannot receive the Sacraments.  The Catholic who has fallen into the sin of heresy can receive the Sacrament of Penance.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
    « Reply #234 on: June 21, 2022, 04:59:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: augustineeens on June 20, 2022, 10:06:09 PM
    When has the Church ever taught that a heretic is a Catholic? You can't quote one source from the Magisterium. You just make it up as you go to fit your heretical ecclesiology.

    Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 22), June 29, 1943, addressed to the universal Church: “Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration and profess the true faith…”

    Does Francis profess the true Faith? Did Martin Luther profess the true Faith? According to your deranged and heretical mind, they are simply "Catholics who have fallen into the mortal sin of heresy". No, you heretic, they do not profess the true Faith, they are outside the Church, they are not Catholic. You can't accept this basic truth, because you are of bad-will and on the road to hell.
    Which of the Divine Laws is being broken by having a heretical pope?

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline augustineeens

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    Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
    « Reply #235 on: June 21, 2022, 05:03:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on June 21, 2022, 04:58:21 AM
    Luther stood before God as a Catholic priest
    Luther was a Catholic?! Wow! The fruit of heresy is insanity! 
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    Offline augustineeens

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    Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
    « Reply #236 on: June 21, 2022, 05:08:29 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on June 21, 2022, 04:59:34 AM
    Which of the Divine Laws is being broken by having a heretical pope?

    I presume what the canonist meant is that by Divine Law heretics are outside the Mystical Body, therefore the head of the Mystical Body could not be a non-member. The main point here is you think heretics are members of the Church. You reject one of the four marks of the Church, Unity. You need to read Satis Cognitum.

    Do you realize that by calling Luther a "Catholic priest", you are saying he professes the true Faith?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
    « Reply #237 on: June 21, 2022, 05:11:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: trad123 on June 20, 2022, 10:32:17 PM
    Abjuration


    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01044d.htm

    Quote

        A denial, disavowal, or renunciation under oath. In common ecclesiastical language this term is restricted to the renunciation of heresy made by the penitent heretic on the occasion of his reconciliation with the Church. The Church has always demanded such renunciation, accompanied by appropriate penance.



    Abjuration  ►  Sacrament of penance

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm
    Quote
    The order of proceeding in a reconciliation is: first, abjuration of heresy or profession of faith; second, conditional baptism (this is given only when the heretical baptism is doubtful); third, sacramental confession and conditional absolution.

    I said:


    Quote
    The Abjuration of Heresy is used primarily for adult converts seeking to enter the Church prior to their baptism or conditional baptism. Otherwise, it is not a requirement - unless specifically required by the official censure itself, or the pope or bishop or confessor requires it. Look it up.

    A public abjuration may (or may not) be the prudent thing to do, but it is not the law, nor is a public abjuration found anywhere in the sacrament of penance's formula for absolution. 

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
    « Reply #238 on: June 21, 2022, 05:13:57 AM »
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    • Quote from: trad123 on June 20, 2022, 10:35:05 PM
    Canon 731:


    Quote
    [. . .]

    § 2. It is forbidden that the Sacraments of the Church be ministered to heretics and schismatics, even if they ask for them and are in good faith, unless beforehand, rejecting their errors, they are reconciled with the Church.


    AKA abjuration.
    This goes without saying.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
    « Reply #239 on: June 21, 2022, 05:31:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: augustineeens on June 21, 2022, 05:03:51 AM
    Luther was a Catholic?! Wow! The fruit of heresy is insanity!
    That's right, not just a Catholic, a Catholic priest no less!


    Quote from: augustineeens on June 21, 2022, 05:08:29 AM
    I presume what the canonist meant is that by Divine Law heretics are outside the Mystical Body, therefore the head of the Mystical Body could not be a non-member. The main point here is you think heretics are members of the Church. You reject one of the four marks of the Church, Unity. You need to read Satis Cognitum.

    Do you realize that by calling Luther a "Catholic priest", you are saying he professes the true Faith?
    Divine Law is law given to us directly from God Himself hence the name, "Divine Law", no one else is Divine, only God. Think 10 commandments. Hopefully you will remember this from now on.

    In calling Luther a Catholic Priest, I am not saying he professed the true faith - the man was an abominable heretic. What I am doing is stating a fact of faith in virtue of the indelible character that the sacrament of holy orders imprints on the soul of all priests - and only on the souls of all priests. Even now that character remains - and will forever remain, marking him as having been a Catholic priest forever, which only adds to his suffering.

    This is something 6 year old Catholic children are taught as part of their catechism, not sure what there is about it you cannot accept. 

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse
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