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Author Topic: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II  (Read 39941 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Even if a heretical cardinal were elected, that election would be null and void because they are heretics.
Then please provide a logical explanation of why Pope St Pius X and Pius XII would make such a change?  Were they stupid?  Did they get bored and just want to change conclave rules?  You're obviously implying the rule change had no purpose.  St Pius X has been repeatedly quoted as saying he was surrounded by "wolves" in new-rome.  He wrote many encyclicals on Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ and how they were the enemies of the Church.  Don't you think his rule change had something to do with the infiltration that had already started?  How do you explain it?

Offline DigitalLogos

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This is a useless discussion because Lad/DL (and others) refuse to define terms, and ignore the various degrees of such words: 'magisterium', 'heresy', 'infallibility'.  Their use of these terms is so general that they can pick out any quote from 500s years ago and say it applies to the present situation.  Such a waste of time and intellect.
So the Magisterial teachings of the Church, as well as the legitimate Popes and Councils are not eternal? They have time limits? Where does it state that?

None of you can properly answer the objections drawn from Church teachings so you resort to arguing semantics.

On that point, Stubborn defined the Magisterium for you pages back. If you have trouble with these terms, maybe you need to pay attention to what is being quoted. Many of the Papal teachings I've provided state what constitutes heresy. Vatican I provided definitions of infallibility. I shouldn't have to provide the definitions for you.

For the record, I do probably agree with sedevacantism but...not for the reasons that Lad/DL argue.  They seemed to have halted all examination of their theory and have no interest in redefining it nor improving it.  I appreciate their logic, openness and integrity on many other topics, but on this one, they become emotional and defensive.  They protect a viewpoint instead of being open to being wrong (even to a small degree).
I've already stated that if it was proven that these men are legitimate Pontiffs, I would submit. Yet no one has shown how a heretic can hold a valid office in the Church outside of obscuring the papal teachings of Pius XII.

I also don't understand where the claims of emotionalism come from? You could only get that if you're reading into my words. Is it because I, rightly, call out the heresy that Stubborn and co. are preaching? Is heretic and schismatic an emotional slur now? I thought it was part of the ecclesiastical vernacular, but I guess its just subjective, emotional language rather than based in the objective teachings of the Church.
"Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

"In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

"A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


Offline DigitalLogos

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Then please provide a logical explanation of why Pope St Pius X and Pius XII would make such a change?  Were they stupid?  Did they get bored and just want to change conclave rules?  You're obviously implying the rule change had no purpose.  St Pius X has been repeatedly quoted as saying he was surrounded by "wolves" in new-rome.  He wrote many encyclicals on Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ and how they were the enemies of the Church.  Don't you think his rule change had something to do with the infiltration that had already started?  How do you explain it?
augustineeens provided the following refutation of your misunderstanding of the teaching, and it was dismissed and ridiculed because it comes from MHFM.

https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/cardinal-elects-excommunicated-pope/
"Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

"In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

"A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

Offline Stubborn

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I'm not the one twisting that to mean anything more than it says, unlike you with Pius XII. Even if a heretical cardinal were elected, that election would be null and void because they are heretics. Furthermore, this supposes that the Holy Ghost would ever permit such a thing to occur. Its insane, heretical, and blasphemous.
Again, I showed you the proof, it is what the pope said, all you have is nothing but your own puny ideas.


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Again, you're presupposing that Francis et al are legitimate Roman Pontiffs; yet you admit he, and the others, are heretics. I've provided the dogmatic teaching on how the Church views heretics and you keep pointing to some "clause" about heretical cardinals with the insistence that it must mean the Church, somehow, contradicted its previous teachings and now allows for heretics to hold legitimate Catholic office, including the papacy.
I provided the popes' legislation for the conclave - you are the one who refuses to accept what it says, not me. You refuse to accept what it says because it obliterates everything you think about Catholics in the state of the mortal sin of heresy.


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The reason you don't see this is because you hold to heretical teachings that have obscured the truth to allow for this contradiction of a heretic holding legitimate office. You've proven your pertinacity, and I have nothing more to say to you on the matter.
What heretical teaching to I hold? Post it or retract it.

All I ask before you stomp off, all I ask is for you to answer the question:
So knowing that only Catholics can use the sacrament of confession, can Catholics guilty of the mortal sin of heresy and want to repent go to confession or not?




"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline Ladislaus

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Right, no pope can lift a divine law impediment to being elected pope; they are merely lifting ecclesiastical impediments.  So, for instance, a conclave could not elect Joel Osteen to the papacy, nor could they elect a woman.  No amount of papal legislation can lift divine law impediments.  Why can't Osteen be elected?  Because he's outside the Church on account of heresy.


Offline Stubborn

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augustineeens provided the following refutation of your misunderstanding of the teaching, and it was dismissed and ridiculed because it comes from MHFM.

https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/cardinal-elects-excommunicated-pope/
Yes, that link starts out with the error that promotes sedeism, which is that heretics, without any distinction whatsoever, are not members of the Church. Have you ever seen this dogma, or are you just going to take the Dimond Fools' word for it.

That's right up there with heretical popes breaking Divine Law - - -but no one knows which Divine Law, do they now?


"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline DigitalLogos

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All I ask before you stomp off, all I ask is for you to answer the question:
So knowing that only Catholics can use the sacrament of confession, can Catholics heretics guilty of the mortal sin of heresy and want to repent go to confession or not?
Yes. I stated that already. And I never denied it actually.

What heretical teaching to I hold? Post it or retract it.
That heretics can hold office in the Church and that they are inside the Church. I don't need to repost the papal teachings on this.
And you're a schismatic because you profess Francis as Pope but do not hold communion with him outside of lip-service and the Te Igitur.
"Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

"In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

"A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

Offline Stubborn

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Yes. I stated that already. And I never denied it actually.
If yes, then you have got to admit that Catholics who fell into the state of the mortal sin of heresy are indeed Catholic. If you do not admit this, then you admit that the Church permits non-Catholics to use our sacraments.
There is no other alternative.

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That heretics can hold office in the Church and that they are inside the Church. I don't need to repost the papal teachings on this.
And you're a schismatic because you profess Francis as Pope but do not hold communion with him outside of lip-service and the Te Igitur.
But you just said that you agree with the Church that Catholics who fall into heresy are Catholic because they can use the sacrament of penance to be absolved from their sin - I agree with this as well.

I hold Francis as a pope who preaches heresy, same as I would hold an angel from heaven to be an angel, even tho he preached a different Gospel. This makes me schismatic now?
"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


Offline DigitalLogos

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Yes, that link starts out with the error that promotes sedeism, which is that heretics, without any distinction whatsoever, are not members of the Church. Have you ever seen this dogma, or are you just going to take the Dimond Fools' word for it.

That's right up there with heretical popes breaking Divine Law - - -but no one knows which Divine Law, do they now?


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Council of Florence (1442: DS 1351): "It firmly believes, professes and preaches, that none who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jєωs and heretics and schismatics, can partake of eternal life, but they will go into eternal fire... unless before the end of life they will have been joined to it [the Church] and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body has such force that only for those who remain in it are the sacraments of the Church profitable for salvation;"
^Literally what I've been saying


To quote again:
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St. Celestine I, Council of Ephesus, 431:
“… ALL HERETICS corrupt the true expressions of the Holy Spirit with their own evil minds and they draw down on their own heads an inextinguishable flame.

Pope Innocent IV, First Council of Lyons, 1245:
The civil law declares that those are to be regarded as heretics, and ought to be subject to the sentences issued against them, who even on slight evidence are found to have strayed from the judgment and path of the Catholic religion.

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum #13:
"can it be lawful for anyone to reject any one of those truths without by the very fact falling into heresy? without separating himself from the Church? – without repudiating in one sweeping act the whole of Christian teaching? For such is the nature of faith that nothing can be more absurd than to accept some things and reject others."
[...]
"he who dissents even in one point from divinely revealed truth absolutely rejects all faith, since he thereby refuses to honour God as the supreme truth and the formal motive of faith."

Canon 1325.2: "After the reception of baptism, if anyone, retaining the name Christian, pertinaciously denies or doubts something to be believed from the truth of divine and Catholic faith, [such a one is] a heretic;"

Pope Paul IV, cuм ex Apostolatus Officio, #6:
6. In addition, if ever at any time it should appear that any Bishop (even one acting as an Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate), or any Cardinal of said Roman Church, even a Legate as previously stated, or even a Roman Pontiff prior to his promotion or elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy, then
his promotion or elevation, even if it be uncontested and carried out by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, invalid, and void;


"Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

"In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

"A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

Offline Francis Xavier

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If yes, then you have got to admit that Catholics who fell into the state of the mortal sin of heresy are indeed Catholic. If you do not admit this, then you admit that the Church permits non-Catholics to use our sacraments.
There is no other alternative.
But you just said that you agree with the Church that Catholics who fall into heresy are Catholic because they can use the sacrament of penance to be absolved from their sin - I agree with this as well.

I hold Francis as a pope who preaches heresy, same as I would hold an angel from heaven to be an angel, even tho he preached a different Gospel. This makes me schismatic now?
Are you nuts? Here is a quote from Pope Pius XII:
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Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 23), June 29, 1943:  “For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”



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If you do not admit this, then you admit that the Church permits non-Catholics to use our sacraments.
The Church "allows" pagans to receive water baptism, does that prove pagans are Catholics?

Offline Stubborn

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^Literally what I've been saying
I know you keep saying the same thing and posting beautiful Catholic and dogmatic teachings over and over, why keep quoting the same thing that there is no argument over?

Certainly heretics who have never been Catholic are outside of the Church, and all who die heretics regardless of whether they were Catholic or not will go to hell forever - that is not in dispute, never has been, never will be - this is what Florence is teaching and is in harmony with all of your other excellent quotes (except the ones I noted that are misquoted by MHFM).

Look, you said that you agree that Catholics, most notably popes, who've fallen into the sin of heresy can be absolved through the sacrament of penance. If you actually believe this truth, then you understand that the Church only permits the use of this sacrament to those who are members of the Church. Hence, Catholics who've fallen into the sin of heresy must be members of the Church who've fallen into the sin of heresy. It's really not complicated.

Heresy is a mortal sin, Catholics who've fallen into this mortal sin have got to get to the sacrament of confession asap - but the nature of this particular sin makes that more unlikely than with other mortal sins. So it's not that the Church has kicked them out, She hasn't, it's that they want nothing to do with her anymore - THAT is the nature of the sins of heresy, apostacy and schism, this is what PPXII is teaching in MC.

The sede narrative hinges on the error that Catholics who've fallen into the sin of heresy are banished from the Church, insisting that these heretics are not members of the Church - I keep saying if they were Catholic, then yes, they are indeed members of the Church who have fallen into the mortal sin of heresy and that it is the Church herself who urges them to get to confession and repent - which she only does to members of the Church.

"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


Offline Stubborn

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Are you nuts? Here is a quote from Pope Pius XII:
Quote
Quote
Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 23), June 29, 1943:  “For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”
You're new here but, if you read back a few pages, you can read my rebuttal to Lad on this. In short, you read meanings into words which the words do not say, while failing to advert to what the words do say.


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The Church "allows" pagans to receive water baptism, does that prove pagans are Catholics?

She forbids it, the Church makes it a mortal sin for those outside of the Church to use her sacraments, except baptism when death is imminent after eliciting an act of faith from the one dying. IOW, you want to use Her sacraments? then go through the motions and become a member of the Church. Period.

"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline augustineeens

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I hold as a teaching of the Church that a Catholic who has fallen into mortal sin is exactly that, a Catholic who has fallen into mortal sin.

I hold as a teaching of the Church that heresy, schism and apostacy are mortal sins. You adulterate this teaching in order to maintain the sede narrative.
Right... so you hold that a Catholic who becomes a heretic, is still a Catholic. So then you would logically have to conclude that Martin Luther remained a Catholic when he became a heretic, he's just a "Catholic in mortal sin" according to you, right? Clearly, you reject the Unity of the Church. It's a dogma that the Church is one in Faith. You reject that. You are not a Catholic.

Offline augustineeens

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I hold as a teaching of the Church that a Catholic who has fallen into the mortal sin of adultery, or murder, or heresy and any/every other mortal sin is a Catholic in mortal sin. You deny this teaching in order to maintain the sede narrative.
When has the Church ever taught that a heretic is a Catholic? You can't quote one source from the Magisterium. You just make it up as you go to fit your heretical ecclesiology.

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 22), June 29, 1943, addressed to the universal Church: “Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration and profess the true faith…”

Does Francis profess the true Faith? Did Martin Luther profess the true Faith? According to your deranged and heretical mind, they are simply "Catholics who have fallen into the mortal sin of heresy". No, you heretic, they do not profess the true Faith, they are outside the Church, they are not Catholic. You can't accept this basic truth, because you are of bad-will and on the road to hell. 

Offline trad123

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Abjuration


https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01044d.htm


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A denial, disavowal, or renunciation under oath. In common ecclesiastical language this term is restricted to the renunciation of heresy made by the penitent heretic on the occasion of his reconciliation with the Church. The Church has always demanded such renunciation, accompanied by appropriate penance.



Abjuration  ►  Sacrament of penance
2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.