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Author Topic: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II  (Read 45569 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Stubborn twists Pius XII around to be saying the EXACT OPPOSITE of what he actually meant and then has the audacity to accuse the sedes of distorting it.

What Pius XII is saying is precisely that Heresy and Schism are NOT LIKE other mortal sin.  Stubborn falsely alleges that "all mortal sin severs from the Church".  That's a blatant lie and the opposite of what Pius XII was teaching.  "Ordinary" (aka non-heresy/schism) mortal sin deprives the soul of life and makes the sinner a DEAD member of the Church, but he remains a member just the same.  With Heresy and Schism, these sins, unlike the other mortal sins, DO sever from the BODY of the Church.

Dead members of the Church continue to be part of the body of the Church and therefore can exercise authority and jurisdiction.  Non-members, such as those severed by heresy and schism, CANNOT exercise authority in the Church.

This is absolutely astonishing that Stubborn twists Pius XII into saying the exact opposite of what he was actually teaching.

Will his fellow R&R have the honesty to correct his malicious stupidity?
You're just desperate to maintain a vacant chair. Same o same o.

You are making PPXII to say what he does not say - you have him saying: "For no other sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy."

But that is not what he said. He said "For not every sin, however grave it may be..." Now, you, the great wind bag, purport to be a knowledgeable brainiac, so the question (you will never answer) is - in context, what does "For not every sin" mean?

This is absolutely astonishing that Lad twists Pius XII into saying the exact opposite of what he was actually teaching.

If sedes ever make it past that sentence, in the next sentence the pope goes on to say:
 "Men may lose charity and divine grace through sin, thus becoming incapable of supernatural merit, and yet not be deprived of all life if they hold fast to faith and Christian hope, and if, illumined from above, they are spurred on by the interior promptings of the Holy Spirit to salutary fear and are moved to prayer and penance for their sins.
"

Which is to say that although all sinners lose charity and grace, it is possible for them to be moved to payer and penance for their sins. Even though it is apparent that heretics do not "hold fast to faith and Christian hope", Pope Pius XII does not exclude heretics from being moved to prayer and penance - it is you who exclude heretics from any possibility of repentance.


No, I am not skirting around the issue, I am merely pointing out your errors, errors which you rely on to support your narrative.

First you said  "heretics are outside of the Church. They are not Catholics." This is false as I just showed you - and apparently you now agree? - because now you just said above: "The problem is not that heretics cannot repent and go to confession..."

If they've never had the faith, then Lutherans, Calivinists, Methodists, Eastern "Orthodox" et all are *not* Catholics, so no, they are not permitted to go to confession because those heretics are outside of the Church.

So knowing that only Catholics can use the sacrament of confession, can Catholics guilty of the mortal sin of heresy and want to repent go to confession or not?


Again, you are off the mark. It is the Church's logic that says one who is Catholic - which of course means one who is baptized and believes all the Church teaches and believes in the Church - and who commits the mortal sins of heresy will be forgiven of those sins in the Sacrament of Penance if he wants to repent of those sins. Indeed,  the Church urges all Catholics who fall into whatever mortal sin, including the sin of heresy, to get to confession because they must go to confession if they want to repent and be forgiven.

The problem is, as PPXII said, the nature of the sins of heresy. Due to the nature of this sin it will be very unlikely for the heretic to even think about seeking forgiveness.

This is just basic Catholic truth, if it does not make sense to you then the truth does not make sense to you.
:facepalm: Says the guy who is literally arguing that heretics are still inside the Church. To be inside the Church is to be Catholic, what I originally said still stands.

You need to go think a little more thoroughly about what you're saying


Offline Stubborn

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Manifest Heretics in the external forum are required to make an abjuration of heresy before they can be admitted back to the Sacraments.  Those who commit heresy in the internal forum (e.g. occult heretics) can simply go to Confession.  In terms of membership in the Church, there's a huge difference  between a manifest heretic and an occult heretic.  Occult heresy, as per St. Robert Bellarmine, does not sever from the Church, whereas manifest heresy does.
Another Ladism used in desperation to maintain a vacant chair.

The Abjuration of Heresy is used primarily for adult converts seeking to enter the Church prior to their baptism or conditional baptism. Otherwise, it is not a requirement - unless specifically required by the official censure itself, or the pope or bishop or confessor requires it. Look it up.

A public abjuration may (or may not) be the prudent thing to do, but it is not the law, nor is a public abjuration found anywhere in the sacrament of penance's formula for absolution.   

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
:facepalm: Says the guy who is literally arguing that heretics are still inside the Church. To be inside the Church is to be Catholic, what I originally said still stands.

You need to go think a little more thoroughly about what you're saying
So knowing that only Catholics can use the sacrament of confession, can Catholics guilty of the mortal sin of heresy and want to repent go to confession or not?

This is not a trick question, it is actually a VERY basic question that any 8 year old Catholic could answer in the blink of an eye. But because you know that the answer is completely against the whole idea of sedeism, you will find it all but impossible to give the true and simple answer. And also, I would love to be proven wrong on this.

In case of replies, I'll be back in the morning.

So knowing that only Catholics can use the sacrament of confession, can Catholics guilty of the mortal sin of heresy and want to repent go to confession or not?

This is not a trick question, it is actually a VERY basic question that any 8 year old Catholic could answer in the blink of an eye. But because you know that the answer is completely against the whole idea of sedeism, you will find it all but impossible to give the true and simple answer. And also, I would love to be proven wrong on this.

In case of replies, I'll be back in the morning.
Heretics are outside of the Church until they repent (i.e. repudiate their errors and convert). I don't see how I ever said that wasn't the case. You're trying to twist my position into a contradiction where one doesn't exist.

You know you're wrong, that's why you're resorting to insulting my intelligence. Go right ahead. I'm not the one holding to a contradictory position here like the heretical and schismatic R&R position you hold.