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Author Topic: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II  (Read 45588 times)

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You are wrong on both accounts. I will attempt to explain....

My presumption is that since you quoted Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 23), you agree that:
Heresy is a mortal sin. 

We know that all mortal sin severs from the Church, i.e adultery, murder, pride, and so on - but as PPXII said, due to it's nature, none sever like the mortal sin of heresy, (and apostacy and schism). Pope Pius XII is talking about the nature of the sin. Obviously you will agree the nature of the sin of heresy makes this sin the worst or among the worst.

The Church always calls upon all of her children to confess their mortal sins, do penance and amend their life.

For the Catholic who has fallen into mortal sin, (in this case the mortal sin of heresy), like all Catholics, he can receive the Sacrament of Penance and his mortal sin of heresy will be forgiven. Certainly the Catholic who fell into the mortal sin of heresy is in a much more serious spiritual condition than the Catholic who is in the state of lesser mortal sin, but neither is in the woeful condition of those who are outside the Church for the simple fact that one who is not a Catholic cannot receive the Sacraments.

I completely realize this truth is contrary to what sedes think, and in order to maintain your deep seated belief, you will need to deny the above truth - so let's hear it.

edit to add....I will be back later, real life is calling.
Wow, I am utterly astounded at your attempt to skirt around the issue here. The problem is not that heretics cannot repent and go to confession, but pertinacious heretics (those without any repentance whatsoever, such as your "Popes") because they believe they are right (like yourself) remain firmly outside of the Church and lose all office and authority as has been shown thousands of times.

Your "Popes" remain pertinacious and therefore outside of the sheepfold, therefore, again, cannot command or possess any Catholic office.

By your explanation Lutherans, Calivinists, Methodists, Eastern "Orthodox" et all are Catholics because they can renounce their heresy and return to the Church. Which is literally what the Modernist heretics teach.

Your anti-logic also implies that schismatics and apostates, who have been baptized (as only the baptized can be heretics, apostates and schismatics), cannot repent and enter the Church as well. Your point doesn't make sense because you're being entirely dishonest and don't have the truth.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Stubborn twists Pius XII around to be saying the EXACT OPPOSITE of what he actually meant and then has the audacity to accuse the sedes of distorting it.

What Pius XII is saying is precisely that Heresy and Schism are NOT LIKE other mortal sin.  Stubborn falsely alleges that "all mortal sin severs from the Church".  That's a blatant lie and the opposite of what Pius XII was teaching.  "Ordinary" (aka non-heresy/schism) mortal sin deprives the soul of life and makes the sinner a DEAD member of the Church, but he remains a member just the same.  With Heresy and Schism, these sins, unlike the other mortal sins, DO sever from the BODY of the Church.

Dead members of the Church continue to be part of the body of the Church and therefore can exercise authority and jurisdiction.  Non-members, such as those severed by heresy and schism, CANNOT exercise authority in the Church.

This is absolutely astonishing that Stubborn twists Pius XII into saying the exact opposite of what he was actually teaching.

Will his fellow R&R have the honesty to correct his malicious stupidity?


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Wow, I am utterly astounded at your attempt to skirt around the issue here.

That's not doing it justice.  He tries to warp Pius XII into saying the exact opposite of what he actually taught.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Manifest Heretics in the external forum are required to make an abjuration of heresy before they can be admitted back to the Sacraments.  Those who commit heresy in the internal forum (e.g. occult heretics) can simply go to Confession.  In terms of membership in the Church, there's a huge difference  between a manifest heretic and an occult heretic.  Occult heresy, as per St. Robert Bellarmine, does not sever from the Church, whereas manifest heresy does.

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Wow, I am utterly astounded at your attempt to skirt around the issue here. The problem is not that heretics cannot repent and go to confession, but pertinacious heretics (those without any repentance whatsoever, such as your "Popes") because they believe they are right (like yourself) remain firmly outside of the Church and lose all office and authority as has been shown thousands of times.

Your "Popes" remain pertinacious and therefore outside of the sheepfold, therefore, again, cannot command or possess any Catholic office.

By your explanation Lutherans, Calivinists, Methodists, Eastern "Orthodox" et all are Catholics because they can renounce their heresy and return to the Church. Which is literally what the Modernist heretics teach.
No, I am not skirting around the issue, I am merely pointing out your errors, errors which you rely on to support your narrative.

First you said  "heretics are outside of the Church. They are not Catholics." This is false as I just showed you - and apparently you now agree? - because now you just said above: "The problem is not that heretics cannot repent and go to confession..."

If they've never had the faith, then Lutherans, Calivinists, Methodists, Eastern "Orthodox" et all are *not* Catholics, so no, they are not permitted to go to confession because those heretics are outside of the Church.

So knowing that only Catholics can use the sacrament of confession, can Catholics guilty of the mortal sin of heresy and want to repent go to confession or not? 


Quote
Your anti-logic also implies that schismatics and apostates, who have been baptized (as only the baptized can be heretics, apostates and schismatics), cannot repent and enter the Church as well. Your point doesn't make sense because you're being entirely dishonest and don't have the truth.

Again, you are off the mark. It is the Church's logic that says one who is Catholic - which of course means one who is baptized and believes all the Church teaches and believes in the Church - and who commits the mortal sins of heresy will be forgiven of those sins in the Sacrament of Penance if he wants to repent of those sins. Indeed,  the Church urges all Catholics who fall into whatever mortal sin, including the sin of heresy, to get to confession because they must go to confession if they want to repent and be forgiven.

The problem is, as PPXII said, the nature of the sins of heresy. Due to the nature of this sin it will be very unlikely for the heretic to even think about seeking forgiveness.

This is just basic Catholic truth, if it does not make sense to you then the truth does not make sense to you.