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Author Topic: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II  (Read 45695 times)

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I read it, the whole refutation is based off the very first item, which is itself error.... "As we’ve already shown, it’s a dogma that 1) heretics are not members of the Church;"


Your rejection of that point is heresy in itself. Proving you don't even know what you're talking about.

Pope Innocent IV, First Council of Lyons, 1245: “The civil law declares that those are to be regarded as heretics, and ought to be subject to the sentences issued against them, who even on slight evidence are found to have strayed from the judgment and path of the Catholic religion.

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 3), June 29, 1896: “You are not to be looked upon as holding the true Catholic faith if you do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.”

(#9)
“The practice of the Church has always been the same, and that with the consenting judgment [i.e. consensus] of the holy fathers who certainly were accustomed to hold as having no part of Catholic communion and as banished from the Church whoever had departed in even the least way from the doctrine proposed by the authentic Magisterium.”

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 23), June 29, 1943: “For not every offense, although it may be a grave evil, is such as by its very own nature [suapte natura] to sever a man from the Body of the Church [ab Ecclesiae Corpore], as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Bull "Cantate Domino," 1441, ex cathedra: “It [the Holy Roman Church] condemns, rejects and anathematizes all thinking opposed and contrary things, and declares them to be aliens from the Body of Christ, which is the Church.

Canon 1325.2: “After the reception of baptism, if anyone, retaining the name Christian, pertinaciously denies or doubts something to be believed from the truth of divine and Catholic faith, [such a one is] a heretic; if he completely turns away from the Christian faith, [such a one is] an apostate; if finally he refuses to be under the Supreme Pontiff or refuses communion with the members of the Church subject to him, he is a schismatic.”


The Magisterium doesn't teach that, prominent examples being the Catechism of Trent and the Catechism of Pius X.


Those catechisms are not the Magisterium! They are fallible docuмents and must be rejected in as much as the Magisterium teaches to the contrary (which it does on baptism). Here is what the Magisterium teaches on the sacrament of Baptism: Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, Sess. 7, Can. 5 on the Sacrament of Baptism, ex cathedra: “If anyone says that baptism [the Sacrament] is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation (cf. Jn. 3:5): let him be anathema.”


Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
How is this error? Do you believe heretics can be members of the Church?
I answered you in this post:
Catholics who are bad willed heretics are guilty of mortal sin because they deny a dogma or dogmas. To be forgiven of this sin of heresy, the penitent must go to confession and receive absolution from the priest for this  sin. Depending on the culpability and gravity of the sin, the nature of this sin makes this more unlikely to happen than with other mortal sins.


I answered you in this post:
Heretics are already considered bad-willed because of their heresy. If you're stretching "material heresy" beyond merely error on the part of an otherwise good-willed Catholic, then you are just wrong.

Quote
Pope Innocent IV, First Council of Lyons, 1245:
“The civil law declares that those are to be regarded as heretics, and ought to be subject to the sentences issued against them, who even on slight evidence are found to have strayed from the judgment and path of the Catholic religion.”


Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Your rejection of that point is heresy in itself. Proving you don't even know what you're talking about.

Pope Innocent IV, First Council of Lyons, 1245: “The civil law declares that those are to be regarded as heretics, and ought to be subject to the sentences issued against them, who even on slight evidence are found to have strayed from the judgment and path of the Catholic religion.

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 3), June 29, 1896: “You are not to be looked upon as holding the true Catholic faith if you do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.”

(#9)
 “The practice of the Church has always been the same, and that with the consenting judgment [i.e. consensus] of the holy fathers who certainly were accustomed to hold as having no part of Catholic communion and as banished from the Church whoever had departed in even the least way from the doctrine proposed by the authentic Magisterium.”

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 23), June 29, 1943: “For not every offense, although it may be a grave evil, is such as by its very own nature [suapte natura] to sever a man from the Body of the Church [ab Ecclesiae Corpore], as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Bull "Cantate Domino," 1441, ex cathedra: “It [the Holy Roman Church] condemns, rejects and anathematizes all thinking opposed and contrary things, and declares them to be aliens from the Body of Christ, which is the Church.

Canon 1325.2: “After the reception of baptism, if anyone, retaining the name Christian, pertinaciously denies or doubts something to be believed from the truth of divine and Catholic faith, [such a one is] a heretic; if he completely turns away from the Christian faith, [such a one is] an apostate; if finally he refuses to be under the Supreme Pontiff or refuses communion with the members of the Church subject to him, he is a schismatic.”
Sorry DL, it is you who do not know what you are talking about. As for me personally, I absolutely, completely and 100% agree, and submit too and with all the above teachings (except #9 Satis Cognitum, see below), and would have bolded the same text if I would have posted them.

Not sure where you got #9 Satis Cognitum from, that is a bad quote as it does appear that way in any version of Satis Cognitum that I can find  - -did you get it from the Dimonds? They've always been notorious for purposely misquoting so as to suit their narrative.

I can only find this for #9: "The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium."

As for #3 Satis Cognitum, the pope(s) fully believes that he teaches the faith of Rome.