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Author Topic: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II  (Read 39912 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Here's the audio that I first hear when Father Ringrose posted it after having become SV.


Offline Ladislaus

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Offline DigitalLogos

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DL, see here:
https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/sedevacantistsif-you-were-convinced-sede-ism-was-wrong-what-would-you-do-next/msg706856/#msg706856

Here's the most important quote that those who falsely claim to be followers of Archbishop Lefebvre deny, and it's my primary problem with them.  Those who deny this promote heresy and blasphemy, but Archbishop Lefebvre did not deny this at all.

Archbishop Lefebvre:
Whether someone believes that the Holy See was impeded (e.g. the Siri theorists, of whom I count myself as one), that it was vacant simpliciter, that it was vacant formally but materially occupied, that it was impounded (Fr. Chazal), or - heck - even that Montini was replaced by a double, an imposter (as we know Sister Lucy was), or drugged or not free because he was being blackmailed over sodomy ... I don't really care what theory one holds, as long as one does not deny the quote from Archbishop Lefebvre above.  THAT is my problem, and I am so sick and tired of people claiming to be Catholics rejecting this dogmatic truth, and in reality being no better than Old Catholics ... and little better than Eastern Orthodox or even Protestants.
Yes, I've seen that, I've seen the quotes of Lefebvre that fit both R&R and Sedevacantism, which just shows that he simply did not have the proper evidence at that time to make a firm decision one way or the other. Therefore, he can be excused because of the limited information before him. But these Lefebvrists that have followed him do not have that same excuse because both Antipopes after JPII have repeated his apostasy and heresies.

As a side note, one glaring issue I see with Fr. Chazal's position is that it goes against Vatican I, denies papal infallibility and bifurcates the papacy, separating the Pope from his Supreme authority. These same problems come up with Cassiciacuм (material-formal thesis) as well. If he is the legitimate Pope, then he has the full power of his office, he cannot be "impounded" as John of St. Thomas (an R&R favorite) taught nor can the office be merely "materially" occupied, but not formally, because to have one is to have the other. But I digress.
"Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

"In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

"A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

Offline SeanJohnson

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"We desire also that this docuмent of Ours be read in the presence of all in the first Congregations
usually held after the death of the Pontiff, as above (no. 12 a); again after entry into the
Conclave, as above (no. 51); likewise when anyone is raised to the dignity of the purple, after
having pledged a solemn oath to scrupulously preserve the things that have been decreed in the
present Constitution.


Notwithstanding any whatsoever Apostolic Constitutions and Orders to the contrary issued by
Our Predecessor Roman Pontiffs, which, to the extent it is necessary, We declare each and every
one to be abrogated, as above, and even other matters worthy of individual and special mention
and derogation.


Therefore, let it be permitted to no man to weaken this page of Our constitution, ordinance,
abrogation, commandment, binding order, warning, prohibition, precept, and will, or to go
against it by a rash undertaking. Moreover, if any one presumes to attempt this, let him know that
he will incur for it the anger of Almighty God and of the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.

Given in Rome, at St. Peter’s, A.D. 1945, on the eighth day of December, on the feast of the
Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary, in the seventh year of Our Pontificate." - Pope Pius XII, Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis

Crickets.  Loud, loud crickets.
Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

Offline Ladislaus

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As a side note, one glaring issue I see with Fr. Chazal's position is that it goes against Vatican I, denies papal infallibility and bifurcates the papacy, separating the Pope from his Supreme authority. These same problems come up with Cassiciacuм (material-formal thesis) as well. If he is the legitimate Pope, then he has the full power of his office, he cannot be "impounded" as John of St. Thomas (an R&R favorite) taught nor can the office be merely "materially" occupied, but not formally, because to have one is to have the other. But I digress.

I disagree.  Distinctions between different aspects of the papal authority are not "bifurcations".  That's not what Vatican I was talking about.  It was talking about the error of distinguishing between the person of the pope and his papal authority.

This distinction of the material vs. formal aspects of the papal office can be found in St. Robert Bellarmine.

One good illustration is this.  Let's say a layman were elected pope, and he accepts.  He has the designation to office but he cannot exercise aspects of that office.  Not being a cleric, he cannot have jurisdiction over the the Church (e.g. tell bishops, priests, and other clerics what to do).  So the next day he's ordained to the priesthood.  That then allows him to exercise certain aspects of the papal authority, such as making appointments or other decisions.  But he's still not fully pope at that point, since one must be a BISHOP.  Nor can he exercise TEACHING authority, which is the most crucial aspect of the papacy, because only bishops are part of the Ecclesia Docens (the teaching Church).  Let's say this priest-pope refused to be consecrated a bishop.  That would, according to theologians, constitute a tacit resignation from office, because the essence of the papacy requires being a bishop, and this would signal intent not to accept the papal office.

Papacy is absolutely unique in the Church.  Bishops and priests all derive their authority from the pope.  But the pope receives his authority directly from God.  All the Church does is to DESIGNATE the person they have chosen to receive said authority, but their election does not formally imbue him with authority (whereas a papal appointment DOES imbue the bishops with their authority).  So the election is the material aspect of the papacy, whereas the granting of authority in response to this election or designation by the Church is the FORMAL aspect of his authority.  For bishops and lower, the two are inseparable.  Bishops receive authority directly through their designation and selection by the Pope.  But the papacy is the one office where the material aspect of election is clearly separate from the formal aspect of their receiving authority.


Offline Ladislaus

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If he is the legitimate Pope, then he has the full power of his office ...

If he is the FORMALLY legitimate Pope, then he has the full power of office.  Cf. my earlier distinction of the layman pope-elect.  He's certainly the Pope (in one respect) as soon as he accepts.  But until he's ordained and then consecrated, he cannot fully exercise the papal office.  He could probably start exercising the material or temporal aspects of the office, such as making appointments, relieving others of duty, etc.  But he cannot fully command and certainly cannot teach in the Church until he becomes a bishop, since episcopacy is essential to being the pope, the Bishop of Rome.  So the elected layman would be pope in one respect but not pope (yet) in another.

In any case, I'm a strong believer in the Siri explanation for what happened.

But, as I said, at the end of the day, I don't really care about the details of the explanation, since it's all private judgment opinion.  I only care about those who claim that a fully/formally legitimate pope (vs. a pope-elect) can destroy the Church by use of the papal authority, which is protected by the Holy Spirit.  That's largely why I've stayed out of this debate.  I don't really care that much about the particulars.  Maybe Paul VI was replaced by a double.  Who knows, after the stunt they pulled with Sister Lucy?  Perhaps he wasn't acting freely but was compelled by blackmail (that would render his acts null and void, since they weren't HIS free acts).  There are any number of explanations ... as Archbishop Lefebvre himself mused in that video.  But we cannot deny the principle which the Archbishop affirmed ... which is that the Church and the Papacy are GUIDED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT and are incapable of destroying the Church in the manner that we have witnessed.

We CAN rest assured in the dogmatic certainty that no "Pope" and no "Ecuмenical Council" did these things, but that "an enemy hath done this."  But the mistake is to elevate the EXPLANATIONS and the PARTICULARS and DETAILS about the who, how, what, where, etc. to the same level as this dogmatic certainty.  Nor do we have to care about the details.  All we have to care about is -- Is the Conciliar Church the Catholic Church or is it not?  And Archbishop Lefebvre was clear and definitive that it is not, but left the resolution of these particulars and details to eventual resolution by the Church.  WAY TOO MUCH ink has been spilled on SVism vs. SPims vs. SIism (sede-impoundism), etc.  That's a theological debate and will not be resolved definitively until the Church has been restored (if then).  Heck, I don't have NEARLY as much a problem with the conservative Novus Ordites who uphold this same principle of the Church's indefectibility.  I consider them to be materially mistaken in judging V2 and the NOM compatible with Catholicism.  That's a mistake, and a far less grave error than attributing this disaster to Holy Mother Church.

That's why I have characterized myself as a DOGMATIC INDEFECTIBILIST, since the indefectibility and the holiness of the Church are dogmatic certainties.  One can argue about the strict limits of infallibility or the "5 opinions" about what the disposition is of a heretical pope, and on and on.  Mistake is to conflate the non-dogmatic explanations with the core dogmatic concern, the indefectibility and holiness of the Catholic Church.

Offline EWPJ

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I havent read the whole thread but bits and pieces and just thought to add that Pope St. Fabian I was a layman that was elected Pope.  

Offline DecemRationis

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I disagree.  Distinctions between different aspects of the papal authority are not "bifurcations".  That's not what Vatican I was talking about.  It was talking about the error of distinguishing between the person of the pope and his papal authority.

This distinction of the material vs. formal aspects of the papal office can be found in St. Robert Bellarmine.

One good illustration is this.  Let's say a layman were elected pope, and he accepts.  He has the designation to office but he cannot exercise aspects of that office.  Not being a cleric, he cannot have jurisdiction over the the Church (e.g. tell bishops, priests, and other clerics what to do).  So the next day he's ordained to the priesthood.  That then allows him to exercise certain aspects of the papal authority, such as making appointments or other decisions.  But he's still not fully pope at that point, since one must be a BISHOP.  Nor can he exercise TEACHING authority, which is the most crucial aspect of the papacy, because only bishops are part of the Ecclesia Docens (the teaching Church).  Let's say this priest-pope refused to be consecrated a bishop.  That would, according to theologians, constitute a tacit resignation from office, because the essence of the papacy requires being a bishop, and this would signal intent not to accept the papal office.

Papacy is absolutely unique in the Church.  Bishops and priests all derive their authority from the pope.  But the pope receives his authority directly from God.  All the Church does is to DESIGNATE the person they have chosen to receive said authority, but their election does not formally imbue him with authority (whereas a papal appointment DOES imbue the bishops with their authority).  So the election is the material aspect of the papacy, whereas the granting of authority in response to this election or designation by the Church is the FORMAL aspect of his authority.  For bishops and lower, the two are inseparable.  Bishops receive authority directly through their designation and selection by the Pope.  But the papacy is the one office where the material aspect of election is clearly separate from the formal aspect of their receiving authority.

Is it settled that bishops receives their jurisdiction from the pope and not God? Fr. Salverri didn't think it was settled:


Quote
This question was raised in the Councils of Trent and Vatican I, but it was not decided. Several authors with Victoria and Vazquez have held that the jurisdiction is given immediately by God to the individual Bishops; but generally Catholic authors with St. Thomas , St. Bonaventure, St. Robert Bellarmine and Suarez hold that jurisdiction is given to the bishops not immediately by God but mediated through the Roman Pontiff. Pius XII teaches this opinion positively in the Encyclical, Mystici Corporis, when he says: "But the Bishops so far as their own diocese is concerned . . . are not completely independent but are subject to the proper authority of the Roman Pontiff, although they enjoy ordinary power of jurisdiction received directly from the Sovereign Pontiff himself." We think that his opinion is to be preferred.

Father Joachim Salverri's Sacrae Theologiae Summa,  Volume 1B, On the Church of Christ/On Holy Scripture. Section 374, Scholium 2, ("On the mediate or immediate origin from God of the jurisdiction of Bishops")

If the papacy is not unique in the sense you think it is, perhaps there are some deep ramifications of that. 

One ramification is that Pius XXII, as pope, speaking directly on a point in an encyclical still didn't settle a matter. Consider that "ramification" of what Fr. Salverri said. 

Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


Offline Stubborn

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Crickets.  Loud, loud crickets.
Of course! It's not that it just does not fit the sede narrative, it is against the narrative, so, crickets.

I expect crickets on this too....

Do I need to quote the canonist Morato again? “Heretics and schismatics are barred from the Supreme Pontificate by the divine law itself...

Which Divine Law?

Not one person has ever told us the Divine Law. Even Fr. Cekada could not tell us - can you?



"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline DecemRationis

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I'm going to keep saying it.  Those of you who articulate R&R the way it's being done here on its thread [asserting that it's possible for the Catholic Magisterium and Catholic public worship to go corrupt, to become non-Catholic, and to lead souls to hell], you promote heresy and blaspheme Holy Mother Church.  I'm not going to mince any words about your impious filth.  You are enemies of the faith, not its defenders, and you are little better than Protestants, Old Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox.

You can keep quibbling about the limits of infallibility-in-the-strict sense or about papa haereticus ipso facto depositus this or ab ecclesia deponendus that, but I care little about that debate.  Those are merely details that may offer explanations for HOW this happened.  I care only about your grave error (heresy) and blasphemy.
 
Yeah, yeah, yeah, keep bloviating about the R & R heretics around here who are "little better than Protestants." You, who, on the basis of his private judgment - you see folks, Lad's read the Latin and connected all the dots of Trent on justification, he's compared the prior Magisterial statements with his exacting scrutiny, so no matter what just about every catechism and church theologian since Trent has said on the subject - reject the ordinary Magisterium teaching on baptism of desire as error, now tell us that we're "heretics" for rejecting the view of just about every theologian who has spoken on the subject (sound familiar?) of the indefectibility of - not the Church, mind you - but the pope and the bishops in union with him, which they (and you), recognize not only as the legitimate leaders of the Church (as we do), but effectively the Church itself . . . 

Take a hike already. 

You have the Ordinary Magisterium teaching error on how a man can be justified with God . . . thus making Holy Mother Church into a lying fraud about salvation (but hey, I guess that's not a "whore," right?). As our esteemed member, Mithrandylan (a reasonable Sedevacantist), has observed on the issue of salvation/justification (and specifically BOD as it relates) and the possibility of the Church being wrong about that:


Quote
It doesn't meet the criteria for an ex cathedra teaching, no. But that doesn't necessarily mean its liable to any kind of error. Soteriological error is just about (if not actually) the worst kind of error imaginable, since it pertains directly to what is necessary for the salvation of souls, and the salvation of souls is THE telos of the Church

https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/singulari-quidem-66223/msg806416/#msg806416

But hey, you claim the ordinary Magisterium is wrong about justification by BOD, committing one of the "worst kind of errors imaginable," in error (isn't theological error like this at least a defect, expert one on indefectibiity?), teaching falsely, without being "enemies of the faith" like Prots, but we are such, who challenge an ordinary Magisterial teaching (likewise not ex cathedra) about indefectibility - assuming you're right about the teaching, which Stubborn, Pax and Sean have challenged. And you do it with such panache. Amazing. 

I've pointed out your inconsistency on a number of issues, and you often avoid them, or like Falstaff in a confrontation in I believe Henry IV Part 1, you'll pull your sword out for effect and wave it around before disappearing from the conversation.

For the second time in this thread I say, Physician, heal thyself. 

Or go ahead, keep accusing some R & R of being heretics, making Holy Mother Church a whore, etc. And I'll keep reminding everyone of your hypocrisy, you great windbag - who has called people around here, a lot of good people, a lot worse than that, with much less justice.

Stick it in your ear, hypocrite. 







Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

Offline Ladislaus

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:sleep:

I have theological opinions like everyone else, and I've never claimed that every act of the Magisterium is inerrant or infallible, and yet on the question of EENS I deny that BoD/BoB have every been definitively taught by the Magisterium.

What I'm saying is pretty straightforward, that the Holy Catholic Church cannot transform into a brand new religion, with a novel theological system rooted in subjectivism and Modernist thinking and cannot adopt for its public worship a Rite of Mass that is doubtfully valid and certainly harmful to souls.  In short, if the Church were capable of transforming into an entity from which Catholics feel bound in conscience to separate because it had become so corrupt in its doctrine and public worship, that's tantamount to a defection of the Church, which is undoubtedly a heretical proposition.

As for BoD, I've repeatedly said that in its Thomistic/Bellarmine form it's not harmful to the faith, but only in its distorted form that undermines the necessity of Catholic faith for salvation.

So you're idiotically straw-manning my position.


Offline Ladislaus

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I've pointed out your inconsistency on a number of issues, and you often avoid them ...

That's only a product of your weak mind, perhaps corrupted by your bad will in blaspheming the Church.  What you claim are inconsistencies and contradictions are due to your inability to grasp distinctions, as demonstrated clearly above where you're incapable of understanding the difference between Thomistic/Bellarminite BoD (which I've always held to be a tenable opinion ... with which I simply disagree) and Pelagian BoD, which undermines EENS dogma.  As for the Magisterium, I've called out some of the dogmatic SVs for exaggerating the scope of strict infallibility.  But there's an enormous chasm between saying that not everything taught by the Magisterium is strictly infallible or irreformable and claiming that the Catholic Church has gone so corrupt that we are required by our Catholic conscience to have nothing to do with it.

Offline DecemRationis

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That's only a product of your weak mind, perhaps corrupted by your bad will in blaspheming the Church.  What you claim are inconsistencies and contradictions are due to your inability to grasp distinctions, as demonstrated clearly above where you're incapable of understanding the difference between Thomistic/Bellarminite BoD (which I've always held to be a tenable opinion ... with which I simply disagree) and Pelagian BoD, which undermines EENS dogma.  As for the Magisterium, I've called out some of the dogmatic SVs for exaggerating the scope of strict infallibility.  But there's an enormous chasm between saying that not everything taught by the Magisterium is strictly infallible or irreformable and claiming that the Catholic Church has gone so corrupt that we are required by our Catholic conscience to have nothing to do with it.

I thought you believed that it was necessary to receive the sacrament of baptism - note, receive the water of the sacrament, the actual sacrament itself - to be saved. Don't you? I'd love to her if it's otherwise; please clarify.

The Magisterium doesn't teach that, prominent examples being the Catechism of Trent and the Catechism of Pius X. Of course, I'll imagine you'll go down the road of either saying the Catechism of Trent or the Catechism of Pius X don't teach contrary to you about salvation, or attack the genuineness of the Pius X catechism. Which would, again, savor of hypocrisy if you did, since you attack Stubborn for his reading (contrary to most, as would be your reading of Trent and the Pius X catechism) of your papal quotes on indefectibility.

As noted in my quote of Mithrandylan about salvation being the "telos" of the Church, her failure (according to you) to teach accurately about a matter involving salvation - since you can't, per Lad (or please correct me), be saved without receipt of the sacrament - is hardly "harmless," don't you think? In any event, your quotes about "indefectibility" don't say anything about allowing "harmless" error - they say the Church is "spotless" in her teaching, etc. They say, free from error in her ordinary Magisterial teaching, period. So, nice try there. Anyway, this "error" about BOD and justification/salvation is not only a "spot" in her teachings, but quite a whopping error about who can be saved and how - if Lad, and not the Magisterium, is right - more like a bullseye with "defectible" in the center.

So please do enlighten us about your agreement vel non about the "harmless," indefectible error of the Magisterium regarding BOD: is it possible to be saved without actual physical receipt of the sacrament of baptism?

Btw, the Catechism of Pius X even talks about an "implicit BOD," well beyond your Thomistic/Bellarmine distinction. Indeed, I think St. Thomas even mentions the possibility of an implicit BOD. And we know where this "harmless" error has gone in the hands of the likes of even as distinguished a bishop like Archbishop Lefebvre, don't we? Your view of "indefectibility" certainly didn't prevent some of the greatest churchmen we have in this crisis - I can go on to Bishop Sanborn, etc., but we don't need to go down the list - from teaching really harmful stuff regarding baptism . . . I guess we could agree on that at least.

Your distinction between I guess what you would call one wheel off the rails and totally off the rails is not very convincing, since, again, the teaching on indefectibilty is no error in official Magisterial teaching, not no "harmful" error in official Magisterial teaching, on matters of theology, and this one, again (BOD), involves the "telos" of the Church. The predominant teaching, the overwhelming view on indefectibility which you cite and espouse, says no error in the teaching of the Gospel of Christ, not "can teach theological error regarding the Gospel, but it won't hurt you in the long run."

Nice try, though.
Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

Offline augustineeens

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I read it, the whole refutation is based off the very first item, which is itself error.... "As we’ve already shown, it’s a dogma that 1) heretics are not members of the Church;"


How is this error? Do you believe heretics can be members of the Church?

Offline augustineeens

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I disagree.
Lad, do you not think Fr. Chazal's "impounded Pope" position is condemned in the following?

Pope Pius IX, Vatican I, 1870, Sess. 4, chap. 3, ex cathedra: If anyone thus speaks, that the Roman Pontiff has only the office of inspection or direction, but not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the universal Church, not only in things which pertain to faith and morals, but also in those which pertain to the discipline and government of the Church spread over the whole world; or, that he possesses only the more important parts, but not the whole plenitude of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate, or over the churches altogether and individually, and over the pastors and the faithful altogether and individually: let him be anathema.