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Author Topic: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II  (Read 45803 times)

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Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
I'm going to keep saying it.  Those of you who articulate R&R the way it's being done here on its thread [asserting that it's possible for the Catholic Magisterium and Catholic public worship to go corrupt, to become non-Catholic, and to lead souls to hell], you promote heresy and blaspheme Holy Mother Church.  I'm not going to mince any words about your impious filth.  You are enemies of the faith, not its defenders, and you are little better than Protestants, Old Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox.

You can keep quibbling about the limits of infallibility-in-the-strict sense or about papa haereticus ipso facto depositus this or ab ecclesia deponendus that, but I care little about that debate.  Those are merely details that may offer explanations for HOW this happened.  I care only about your grave error (heresy) and blasphemy.
Your definition of Magisterium is NO and not what the popes you quoted mean. It has been repeatedly explained to you and the other sedes, heck, Pax did an excellent post on this so you really have no excuse for your complete obtuseness.

Perhaps one day you will stop viewing the whole mess through the lenses of an empty chair, but unless or until that happens, your conundrum will remain.

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Do I need to quote the canonist Morato again? “Heretics and schismatics are barred from the Supreme Pontificate by the divine law itself, because, although by divine law they are not considered incapable of participating in certain types of ecclesiastical jurisdiction, nevertheless, they must certainly be regarded as excluded from occupying the throne of the Apostolic See…”
Which Divine Law? Not one person has ever told us the Divine Law. Even Fr. Cekada could not tell us - can you?



I'll go one further and say that they don't have the Catholic faith. And I say this because their entire position revolves around maintaining the erroneous position of Lefebvre, who only held the position that he did because things weren't as clear then as they are now. They're Lefebvrists, not Catholics. Which is why they won't admit any of the clear proof you can throw at them about heresy and the loss of office, or the indefectibility of the Church, because they don't have the faith. They will do everything possible to wriggle out of admitting that the See is vacant, up to the point of calling the Spotless Bride of Christ a whore, just so they have a name to pop into the Te Igitur at their Sunday Mass.
Where's that Bingo card?

These folks have lost their sensus Catholicus.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
I'll go one further and say that they don't have the Catholic faith. And I say this because their entire position revolves around maintaining the erroneous position of Lefebvre, who only held the position that he did because things weren't as clear then as they are now.

I disagree with your characterization of Archbishop Lefebvre's position.  This particular articulation of R&R is decidedly NOT what Archbishop Lefebvre held.  He disagrees with their major premise that the Catholic Church and the Papacy could become this corrupt.  I'll find the speech he gave on that matter (I transcribed it from audio at one point here).  +Lefebvre was open to sedevacantism and considered it a real possibility.  He merely held back from openly declaring the See vacant out of deference to the Church's authority.  That is in fact a legitimate criticism of SVism, that your average Aunt Helen Catholic is in no position to declare the See vacant, nor is a simple priest, and arguably even a single bishop.  Archbishop Lefebvre kept saying that SVism is possible and could very well one day by "confirmed by the Church."  So his reasoning was more along the lines of:  "This is merely my personal opinion but I don't really have the authority to settle the matter."  Archbishop Lefebvre repeatedly stated that the Conciliar Church lacks the Marks of the Holy Catholic Church, i.e. that it's a new religion, and that those marks were with the Traditional Catholics.  That too is a point that this cadre of R&R deny.

Unfortunately, the hesitation of Archbishop Lefebvre did ultimately morph into this modern notion of R&R that is not recognizable as Catholic, but it's not a position that he himself held, despite the claims of these R&Rers themselves, always claiming that they are the true followers of +Lefebvre.  They're not.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
DL, see here:
https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/sedevacantistsif-you-were-convinced-sede-ism-was-wrong-what-would-you-do-next/msg706856/#msg706856

Here's the most important quote that those who falsely claim to be followers of Archbishop Lefebvre deny, and it's my primary problem with them.  Those who deny this promote heresy and blasphemy, but Archbishop Lefebvre did not deny this at all.

Archbishop Lefebvre:
Quote
ultimately I agree with you; it's not possible that the Pope, who is protected by the Holy Ghost, could do things like this.  There we agree; it's not possible, it doesn't fit, this destruction of the Church ...

Whether someone believes that the Holy See was impeded (e.g. the Siri theorists, of whom I count myself as one), that it was vacant simpliciter, that it was vacant formally but materially occupied, that it was impounded (Fr. Chazal), or - heck - even that Montini was replaced by a double, an imposter (as we know Sister Lucy was), or drugged or not free because he was being blackmailed over sodomy ... I don't really care what theory one holds, as long as one does not deny the quote from Archbishop Lefebvre above.  THAT is my problem, and I am so sick and tired of people claiming to be Catholics rejecting this dogmatic truth, and in reality being no better than Old Catholics ... and little better than Eastern Orthodox or even Protestants.