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Author Topic: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II  (Read 39931 times)

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Offline DigitalLogos

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Pius XII:

"None of the cardinals may in any way, or by pretext or reason of any excommunication, suspension, or interdict whatsoever, or of any other ecclesiastical impediment, be excluded from the active and passive election of the supreme pontiff. We hereby suspend such censures solely for the purposes of the said election; at other times they are to remain in vigor" (Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis, 34).
Already refuted.

See:
No, Stubborn, this is not referring to "heretic cardinals", which don't exist. It is referring to Catholic cardinals who have incurred minor excommunication for some crime other than heresy, schism or apostasy. Individuals who have incurred minor excommunication are still members of the Church, unlike heretics. You believe a non-Catholic can be the head of the Church, meaning you don't believe the Church is one in Faith. Next time you sing "Unam, sanctam, catholicam" at a Sung Mass, think about what that really means. It does not mean the Church is some heretical sect made up of both Catholics and heretics. The Mystical Body of Christ professes One (unam) Faith.

Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”

Your fallacious objection was completely refuted long ago here: https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/cardinal-elects-excommunicated-pope/

Also: Pope Leo XIII, Testem Benevolentiae, Jan. 22, 1899: “Where Peter is, there is the Church.” You reject this, for you believe Francis is the head of the Conciliar Church, i.e. "Where Peter is, there is not the Church".

Furthermore, cuм Ex is still in force

Quote
This effectively refutes the contention by certain Traditionalists that the provisions contained in cuм ex are not mentioned in the Code, hence they are abrogated under Can. 6§5 and have lost all force of law. On the contrary; with the exception of Can. 1325, the entire basis for the Code's treatment of heresy, apostasy and schism is firmly grounded on cuм ex. In addition, the Bull of Pope Paul IV, as well as that of Pope St. Pius V's Quo Primum, is further protected from any sort of abrogation by virtue of its makeup. according to Rev. Nicholas J. Neuberger, (Canon 6: The Relation of the Codex Juris Canonici to Preceding Legislation, Catholic University of America, 1927). Calling it an "oath," Rev. Neuberger comments on the phrase "hac immutabili et in perpetuum valitura constitutione" (roughly translated, "our constitution is to remain unchanged in perpetuity,") found in various papal docuмents. He states that while such a phrase does not curtail the power nor invalidate future acts of a (legitimate) successor of the Roman Pontiff, nevertheless "the legislator attaches an especial juridical sanction to laws which have such a clause appended. Pihring advances the theory that the laws of general councils are not abolished unless a derogatory clause is annexed next to the posterior enactment…If a prior law is bound up with an oath which reads into it immunity from abrogation, the law is not countermanded unless express mention is made to that effect. The reasons for this assertion are that the legislator is mindful of a law which has an oath attached and hence abrogation would be invalid."

Source attached

"Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

"In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

"A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

Offline augustineeens

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Pius XII:

"None of the cardinals may in any way, or by pretext or reason of any excommunication, suspension, or interdict whatsoever, or of any other ecclesiastical impediment, be excluded from the active and passive election of the supreme pontiff. We hereby suspend such censures solely for the purposes of the said election; at other times they are to remain in vigor" (Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis, 34).

https://www.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/la/apost_constitutions/docuмents/hf_p-xii_apc_19451208_vacantis-apostolicae-sedis.html
Wow, Sean, you really are blind! I just posted an article completely refuting that and you still go ahead and post it! This is referring to minor exommunications, which is why at the end it says "at other times they are to remain in vigor". No, cuм Ex has not been abrogated and is a matter of divine law and the Unity of the Mystical Body!


Offline DigitalLogos

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If that's the case, then we are dealing with bad-willed heretics who receive not the love of the truth... they are no different to the liberals who will dismiss evidence against the vaccine because the source isn't from the mainstream media. In this case it's bad-willed false trads who only accept Eleison comments or the Angelus or Fr. Wathen's sermons as a valid source...
Yeah, that's about the reality of it. 
"Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

"In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

"A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

Offline SeanJohnson

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Wow, Sean, you really are blind! I just posted an article completely refuting that and you still go ahead and post it! This is referring to minor exommunications, which is why at the end it says "at other times they are to remain in vigor". No, cuм Ex has not been abrogated and is a matter of divine law and the Unity of the Mystical Body!

What a moron:

A disciplinary docuмent has been elevated to divine law (and is therefore irreformable)??

:facepalm:

How about I give you enough rope to hang yourself with, and ask you to cite the passage in VAS which says this provision only applies to “minor excommunications.”

:popcorn:
Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

Offline SeanJohnson

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Already refuted.

See:
Furthermore, cuм Ex is still in force

Eh, you seem not to realize every docuмent you’re citing PRECEDES the abrogation of Pius XII.

Either you need to join Ibranyi, and move the dial back on the...ahem...”interregnum,” or you need to abandon this moronic argument.
Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


Offline augustineeens

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How about I give you enough rope to hang yourself with, and ask you to cite the passage in VAS which says this provision only applies to “minor excommunications.”

:popcorn:
That is obvious, because it refers to cardinals (you must be a member of the Church to be a cardinal). It also states "or of any other ecclesiastical impediment", thus it cannot be referring to heresy, which is not merely an ecclesiastical impediment, but an impediment of divine law. It is just blatantly obvious to anyone of good-will that this is what he is referring to. For heretics that reject the unity of the Church and believe a manifest heretic can be it's head, they have to twist the meaning.

Offline DigitalLogos

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Eh, you seem not to realize every docuмent you’re citing PRECEDES the abrogation of Pius XII.

Either you need to join Ibranyi, and move the dial back on the...ahem...”interregnum,” or you need to abandon this moronic argument.
You didn't read the article that refutes your misuse of Vacantis, did you? Proving that you are as intellectually dishonest as I suspected you were. :facepalm:

Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis does not specifically express any intention to abrogate cuм ex. Suspension for an election does not mean abrogation. And even then, the principle remains that a heretic cannot hold any ecclesiastical office. So, the election of a heretic would still be invalid.

Since you want to skirt around cuм ex, here's another

Quote
Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, #15:
No one, therefore, unless in communion with Peter can share in his authority, since it is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church.

"Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

"In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

"A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

Offline augustineeens

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What a moron:

A disciplinary docuмent has been elevated to divine law (and is therefore irreformable)??

:facepalm:
I never said that, yet again you are reading into things! I said it is a matter of divine law, because the subject matter is just that. Heretics are not members of the Church by divine law, as the canonist Maroto states: “Heretics and schismatics are barred from the Supreme Pontificate by the divine law itself, because, although by divine law they are not considered incapable of participating in certain types of ecclesiastical jurisdiction, nevertheless, they must certainly be regarded as excluded from occupying the throne of the Apostolic See…”

So no, cuм ex is not merely disciplinary (which is something like the law to abstain on fridays), because it is predicated on the divine law that a heretic is not a member of the Church and therefore could not possibly be it's head.


Offline augustineeens

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You didn't read the article that refutes your misuse of Vacantis, did you? Proving that you are as intellectually dishonest as I suspected you were. :facepalm:

Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis does not specifically express any intention to abrogate cuм ex. Suspension for an election does not mean abrogation. And even then, the principle remains that a heretic cannot hold any ecclesiastical office. So, the election of a heretic would still be invalid.

Since you want to skirt around cuм ex, here's another
Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, #15:

No one, therefore, unless in communion with Peter can share in his authority, since it is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church.

And there you have it! According to Pope Leo XIII, the belief of Sean and Stubborn is absurd! I agree with Pope Leo XIII!

Offline Pax Vobis

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There's a difference between a) a Cardinal who believes heresy and b) an actual heretic Cardinal, as declared by canon law.


Quote
Furthermore, cuм Ex is still in force
If any part of it is still in force, it's quite a small part.  Here's the thing, the election laws which Pius X and Pius XII enacted, to keep the conclave going, do not contradict cuм Ex at all.  They are in perfect agreement.


cuм Ex says that the election of a heretic is null and void.  Yes, from the spiritual standpoint of the papacy, that's exactly correct.  The question is, would the pope-elect regain his status as pope, if he were to return to orthodoxy?  Most of you assume no, but cuм Ex doesn't elaborate, so this important point is debatable.

Pius X and XII's law changes allow a heretic to vote/be elected...but right afterwards...ALL spiritual penalties (including excommunication) kick back in.  Which gives the same effect as cuм Ex...the spiritual aspect of the papacy is null.  But...this leaves more questions:
a) This elected heretic would be the temporal pope, because he was validly elected.  He just has no spiritual authority.
b) Would he regain his full spiritual powers, if he converted?  I would assume a strong "yes".

Either way, in a general sense, both laws have the same result:  A pope with temporal/govt power, but with no spiritual authority.  Popes Pius X and XII clearly wanted the election to be valid (in a temporal sense) because otherwise they would have said the whole ordeal is null.  Instead, they clearly wanted the human side of the conclave to be valid (which popes have the power to "bind and loose" human rules) but they kept in place the spiritual penalties.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Quote
And even then, the principle remains that a heretic cannot hold any ecclesiastical office. So, the election of a heretic would still be invalid.
This is a gross generalization, as usual. 

a) There are many different levels of heresy.  Not all preclude one from holding office.
b) There are different aspects to an election and an office.  Temporal and spiritual.
c) The church can change human/temporal rules/laws.  This would affect your "principle".

Using the examples of Pope Pius X and XII...they DIRECTLY contradict your overly-general principle.  So either a) they are both stupid or b) your understanding of the principle is faulty.  I'd bet on the latter, especially considering that they were "guided by the Holy Ghost" and can't err, while you can.

It's amazing to me that some of you sedes will yell and scream "the Church cannot err" and the "pope is guided by the Holy Ghost" but when you read the plain english of Pius X and XII on the conclave, you try to say they were wrong or they can't contradict cuм Ex or some other silly explanation.  


Offline SeanJohnson

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Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, #15:

No one, therefore, unless in communion with Peter can share in his authority, since it is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church.

And there you have it! According to Pope Leo XIII, the belief of Sean and Stubborn is absurd! I agree with Pope Leo XIII!

In case you weren’t aware, Leo XIII was writing well before Pius XII.

:facepalm:
Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

Offline Pax Vobis

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Quote
In case you weren’t aware, Leo XIII was writing well before Pius XII.

:facepalm: title=facepalm
Right.  These guys are arguing backwards.  :jester:

Offline augustineeens

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when you read the plain english of Pius X and XII on the conclave, you try to say they were wrong or they can't contradict cuм Ex or some other silly explanation. 
When did me or DigitalLogos ever say Pope Pius XII was wrong or that he can't contradict cuм Ex? The point is, he didn't contradict it. He was not referring to heretics outside the Church. If you read the articles provided, you would get that.

In case you weren’t aware, Leo XIII was writing well before Pius XII.

:facepalm:
Irrelevant! The principle still holds true today, and Pope Pius XII never contradicted it, since he was referring to ecclesiastical impediments, not to impediments of divine law!

Offline SeanJohnson

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I never said that, yet again you are reading into things! I said it is a matter of divine law, because the subject matter is just that. Heretics are not members of the Church by divine law, as the canonist Maroto states: “Heretics and schismatics are barred from the Supreme Pontificate by the divine law itself, because, although by divine law they are not considered incapable of participating in certain types of ecclesiastical jurisdiction, nevertheless, they must certainly be regarded as excluded from occupying the throne of the Apostolic See…”

So no, cuм ex is not merely disciplinary (which is something like the law to abstain on fridays), because it is predicated on the divine law that a heretic is not a member of the Church and therefore could not possibly be it's head.

Would that be material heretics, or formal?

Would that be covert or public?

Declared?

Manifest?

You’d better go find Ibranyi, because the argument you’re making has Pius XII in “violation” of divine law.

:facepalm:
Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."