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Author Topic: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II  (Read 46146 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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John Daly is an heretical idiot, if in order to protect and compel sedevacantism he finds it necessary to condemn the Vincentian Canon (ie., his tactic to eliminate a level of non-infallible ordinary magisterium, called the authentic magisterium).

John Daly is also an escapist to turn Vatican I against St. Vincent (the Council itself did no such thing), as proven by Labourdette and Nau writing about it, and receiving preconciliar, post-Vatican I imprimaturs.
 
Sean,

Do you have a link - or can you give a reference - to the teaching of Labourdette or Nau that "proves" your point?

Thanks,

DR



Sean,

Do you have a link - or can you give a reference - to the teaching of Labourdette or Nau that "proves" your point?

Thanks,

DR


There are several contained in this article, previously cited:

https://sspx.org/en/clear-ideas-popes-infallible-magisterium

These excerpts are taken from this pre-conciliar/post-Vatican I book:



The short book is a collection of two essays: The first by Dom Paul Nau, OSB (1956), and the second on universality by Canon Rene Berthod.

A quote from the second (because not contained in the aforementioned cited article) will give you an idea of its argument:

”To summarize: the ordinary magisterium of the Church is infallible when it is truly universal (in space and in time), that is to say, when it is in conformity to and continuous with the teaching of Faith of the Church.”

This is in turn based on and consistent with the Vincentian Canon (although I see the NOW crowd has contrived -quite expectedly- means to dismiss it all.


NB: I got timed-out while posting the above, but wanted to clarify that Dom MAU’s essay was preconciliar, but Canon Bert God’s was 1980.

Offline Pax Vobis

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It is the difference between dogma and doctrine.  A dogma is a solemnly proclaimed statement about a matter of Faith or Morals.

No.  As Stubborn pointed out, the only difference between doctrine and dogma is the "how" it's taught.  Doctrine is handed down, through the ages, based on Tradition.  It is ALL Apostolic teaching, from EVERY truth Christ revealed to the Apostles.  It is the essence of the Faith.  It is what has been believed "everywhere, always and by all."

Dogma is when the Church clarifies, re-teaches, and authoritatively commands that a truth 1) has always been a doctrine, 2) is part of Tradition/Apostolic teaching, 3) and must be believed to be saved.



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A doctrine is a religious belief held by the Church which has never been officially proclaimed excathedra but which we a Catholics hold through the traditions and customs of the Church and the authority of Her hierarchy and ministers.
True.  But this is misleading because 95% of doctrines have not been taught ex-cathedra.  All dogmas are doctrine (Apostolic truths) but not all doctrines have needed to be authoritatively taught as dogma (because they were always understood properly). 

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The issue which people really should be discussing then is whether a person is obliged to accept all doctrines of the Church that have not been declared ex cathedra as doctrine.
Yes, we absolutely must accept all doctrines of the Faith.  Ex-cathedra statements are very minimal and unique.

The question is:  What are the doctrines of the Faith that we must believe?  Example:  Must we believe that Our Lady is Mediatrix of All Graces?  It's not been "defined" so it's optional, right?

No, this would not be an optional belief because Our Lady's role as Mediatrix of All Grace 1) has always been held, down through the ages, being implied as part of other doctrines about Her, 2) all throughout history, saints have declared repeatedly that Our Lady has a special and important role in our salvation, thus it is part of Tradition, 3) it is also part of Scripture when She is declared "full of grace", etc etc

One could write a book on such a topic.  Such a belief has always been implicitly held through all the centuries so if the Church decides to make it EXPLICIT (i.e. using an ex-cathedra statement to declare a dogma), the Church would do so to 1) re-teach "that which has always been taught", 2) clarify that this Divine Truth is part of Tradition and Scripture, 3) stop an error or heresy from growing, in order to glorify Our Lady and make devotion to Her increase, for the salvation of souls.


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In my opinion it seems that until something has not been declared a dogma it is not "de fide"
No, not true.  95% of our Faith has never, and will never, be declared dogma.  1) It would be impossible to define every truth 2) it's not necessary as most doctrines aren't questioned because they are so basic. 

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Yet, doctrinal matters given through the normal ordinary teaching authority of the Church are something that all faithful Catholics should give assent to.  For example, if one's bishop approved or disapproved of a book and gave it a "prohibitation" or "imprimatur" people should follow that.
Well, these types of approvals are not really related to doctrine.  An imprimatur means there isn't any MAJOR error in the book.  It doesn't mean the book is perfect.  And a bishop can never be infallible, only the pope.  So an imprimatur can never be infallible.

Offline DecemRationis

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NB: I got timed-out while posting the above, but wanted to clarify that Dom MAU’s essay was preconciliar, but Canon Bert God’s was 1980.

Sean,

Thanks. I might purchase that book. 

However, let me note, and Lad has brought this up repeatedly, that the issue of whether the "authentic Magisterium" could err remains - we are dealing with indefectibility more so than infallibility. Lad often brings this up in response to some comments that I make on the subject, as if I don't get it - I absolutely do. 

My point in referencing "infallibility" is because that is what Vatican I, the infallible Magisterium, talks about. To my knowledge, the "infallible" Magisterium has never opined about "indefectibility." So to argue that the Church is indefectible by referring to "defectible" teachings is circular in my view: you have to accept an a priori the concept of indefectibility to rely on Magisterial statements below the infallible as indefectible or free from error. 

Also, when we are talking about an ecuмenical council such as Vatican II, are we really only talking about "authentic" Magisterium? Perhaps Vatican II is discussed in the book, but the "authentic" Magisterium distinction still presents issues regarding indefectibility, and to me doesn't obviate the problem of an ecuмenical council approved by the Pope being erroneous. And we are not only talking about error here, but even perhaps contradiction with prior Magisterium statements, which present an logical or epistemological dilemma that is dangerously lurking behind all these discussions.

Obviously one way to resolve (as to the ecuмenical council problem) it is by holding that there is nothing seriously erroneous or harmful to the faith in Vatican II, and that Magisterial statements that are in such only come post-Vatican II in "authentic" Magisterial statements of popes, organs of the Vatican such as the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, etc. But then the problem of an "authentic" Magisterium contradicting prior "authentic" or even infallible Magisterial statements remains. 

Which is why I say that the Conciliar Church experience requires a level of engagement with these issues that have been avoided, but I think won't go away: the prospect of an "authentic" Magisterium teaching not only falsely but even in contradiction to what the Magisterium has taught in the past. 

To say the "authentic" Magisterium is not infallible evades that ultimate question and the consequences of it I think.