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Author Topic: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II  (Read 39916 times)

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Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
« on: June 14, 2022, 05:51:51 AM »
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    • Pope Francis: There are many ‘restorers’ in the US who do not accept Vatican II





    Pope Francis sat at the front of the congregation in St. Peter's Basilica on the Solemnity of Pentecost on June 5, 2022.Pope Francis sat at the front of the congregation in St. Peter's Basilica on the Solemnity of Pentecost on June 5, 2022. | Vatican Media
    Hannah Brockhaus
    By Hannah Brockhaus
    Vatican City, Jun 14, 2022 / 04:12 am
    There are many “restorers” in the United States who do not accept the Second Vatican Council, Pope Francis said in an interview published on Tuesday.
    Speaking to the editors of Jesuit journals, he criticized what he called “restorationism” in the Church, which he defined as the failure to accept Vatican II, the ecuмenical council held from 1962 to 1965.
    He said: “Restorationism has come to gag the Council. The number of groups of ‘restorers’ — for example, in the United States there are many — is significant.”
    “An Argentine bishop told me that he had been asked to administer a diocese that had fallen into the hands of these ‘restorers.’ They had never accepted the Council. There are ideas, behaviors that arise from a restorationism that basically did not accept the Council.”
    “The problem is precisely this: in some contexts, the Council has not yet been accepted. It is also true that it takes a century for a Council to take root. We still have 40 years to make it take root, then!”
    Pope Francis cited opposition to Vatican IIwhen he issued the motu proprio Traditionis custodes in July 2021, limiting celebrations of the Traditional Latin Mass.
    In a letter to the world’s bishops, he said he was saddened that the celebration of the Traditional Latin Mass was “often characterized by a rejection not only of the liturgical reform, but of the Vatican Council II itself.”
    To doubt the Council, he said, is “in the final analysis, to doubt the Holy Spirit himself who guides the Church.”
    The pope’s conversation with editors, which also touched on the war in Ukraine and the German “Synodal Way,” was published in La Civiltà Cattolica on June 14 but was conducted on May 19.
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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
    « Reply #1 on: June 14, 2022, 05:56:14 AM »
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    • I’m not feeling the love, bridge building and mercy from peasant slapping pedophile enabling Bergolio.  When he worships false gods and goddesses, Vatican II is not from the Holy Spirit..




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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
    « Reply #2 on: June 14, 2022, 06:04:34 AM »
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    • He’s not wrong that doubting the Council is tantamount to doubting that the Holy Spirit guides the Church ... if you believe that was a legitimate Council to begin with.
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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
    « Reply #3 on: June 14, 2022, 06:10:26 AM »
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    • Get behind us , satan!
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    Offline MariasAnawim

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    Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
    « Reply #4 on: June 14, 2022, 06:31:17 AM »
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    • Yet another reference and foreshadowing to persecution of the true faith and the faithful.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
    « Reply #5 on: June 14, 2022, 07:22:22 AM »
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    • ”The problem is precisely this: in some contexts, the Council has not yet been accepted. It is also true that it takes a century for a Council to take root. We still have 40 years to make it take root, then!”

    Total nonsense, and a tactic to Buffalo Catholics into thinking this council was like all the rest, and therefore the dissension is perfectly normal. 

    But according to that nonsense, there was worldwide chaos and rejection of Vatican I until the 1970’s (whereas the reality is that the very same period gave us some of our best popes, and was a heyday of Catholic growth, conversions, and doctrinal and liturgical unity).
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
    « Reply #6 on: June 14, 2022, 07:37:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 14, 2022, 06:04:34 AM
    He’s not wrong that doubting the Council is tantamount to doubting that the Holy Spirit guides the Church ... if you believe that was a legitimate Council to begin with.
    If John XXIII and Paul VI were legitimate Popes, then one has to accept the Council as legitimate and "infallible." The language of both Antipopes and the docuмents themselves prove as much.
    https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/vatican-ii-infallible/
    https://novusordowatch.org/vatican-ii-infallible-john-daly/
    https://novusordowatch.org/2021/08/paul6-vatican2-is-binding/

    The only way out of such a conclusion is to either accept the fact that they are Antipopes, or, fall into heresy by holding to Gallicanism and denying what Vatican 1 taught about papal infallibility. 
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    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
    « Reply #7 on: June 14, 2022, 08:00:41 AM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on June 14, 2022, 07:37:26 AM
    If John XXIII and Paul VI were legitimate Popes, then one has to accept the Council as legitimate and "infallible."

    Nope.

    Both John XXIII and Paul VI explicitly denied its infallibility.

    Vatican II was a unique breed of cat, and unlike all other councils (just as the new canonizations use the same terminology as traditional ones, but what is being “canonized” is a new conception of “sanctity”).
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    Offline StLouisIX

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    Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
    « Reply #8 on: June 14, 2022, 08:01:04 AM »
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    • Fr. Hesse argued (and I hold to this opinion) that the Second Vatican “Council” was not a true Council at all, since it lacked the formal definitions of actual Church Councils and the intentionality to define anything. 

    https://archive.org/details/FatherHesse/Fr.+Hesse+-+Why+Catholics+May+Doubt+Whether+Vatican+II+Was+a+Valid+Council+(Remastered).mp3

    Moreover, the Francis’ condemnations should fall on deaf ears, especially considering this point: if traditional Catholics are really “Protestants” for not accepting Vatican II, then why is this condemnable according to V2 “theology”, which denies the dogma of EENS through and through?
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    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
    « Reply #9 on: June 14, 2022, 08:07:08 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 14, 2022, 06:04:34 AM
    He’s not wrong that doubting the Council is tantamount to doubting that the Holy Spirit guides the Church ... if you believe that was a legitimate Council to begin with.
    But can one doubt the Council but still believe that the popes who convened, ran, and implemented the Council were true popes?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
    « Reply #10 on: June 14, 2022, 08:11:24 AM »
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    • Quote from: TKGS on June 14, 2022, 08:07:08 AM
    But can one doubt the Council but still believe that the popes who convened, ran, and implemented the Council were true popes?

    Yes, when those same popes say the council did not engage infallibility.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
    « Reply #11 on: June 14, 2022, 08:23:47 AM »
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    • Vigano:

    I ask then: if you admit, dear Father Thomas –  as a painful trial to which Providence is subjecting the Church in order to punish her for the faults of her most unworthy members and especially of her leaders – that the Pope himself is in a state of schism with the Church, to the point of being able to speak of an “internal papal schism”, why can you not accept that the same has happened for a solemn act like a Council, and that Vatican II was a case of “internal Magisterial schism”? If it is possible for this Pope to be “for all practical purposes schismatic” – and I would say also heretical – why could not that Council also have been so, despite the fact that both one and the other were instituted by Our Lord to confirm the brethren in Faith and Morals? I ask you, what prevents the Acts of Vatican II from deviating from the path of Tradition, when the Supreme Pastor himself can deny the teaching of his Predecessors? And if the persona Papae is in schism with the papacy, why could a council that wanted to be pastoral and abstained from promulgating dogmas not be able to contradict the other canonical councils, entering into a de factoschism with the Catholic Magisterium?

    It’s true that this situation is a hapax, a case that in itself has never been seen in the history of the Church; but if this applies to the papacy – in a crescendo from Roncalli to Bergoglio – I do not see why it could not apply for Vatican II, which precisely thanks to the recent popes has set itself as an event in itself, and as such has been used by its proponents?

    https://insidethevatican.com/news/newsflash/letter-21-monday-august-10-2020-again-the-council/
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
    « Reply #12 on: June 14, 2022, 08:39:35 AM »
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    • Great arguments from +Vigano.

    Another point to ponder...which catholics is Francis talking about who won't accept V2?
    1.  All the indult communities accept V2 (FSSP, ICK, etc)
    2.  All the diocesan TLM priests/churches accept V2 (especially after Francis' docuмent TC, which re-emphasizes the acceptance of V2/new mass).  This would include fake conservatives like Bishop Schneider, Cardinal Sarah, etc.
    3.  The new-sspx accepts "95%" of V2  (per +Fellay...but not everyone in the new-sspx agrees with him, thank goodness)

    So what catholics are the "restorationists"?  Who does Francis consider the true enemies of V2? 
    Answer:  The sedevacantists of many different shades, or..."hardcore R&R", including people like +Chazal, +Williamson, and +Vigano who question Francis' orthodoxy. 

    The battle lines are becoming more clear, day by day.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
    « Reply #13 on: June 14, 2022, 08:47:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on June 14, 2022, 08:11:24 AM
    Yes, when those same popes say the council did not engage infallibility.
    This is actually not true.   But even if it were, why should we believe the same people who gave us Vatican II in the first place?
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
    « Reply #14 on: June 14, 2022, 09:04:40 AM »
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    This is actually not true.  But even if it were, why should we believe the same people who gave us Vatican II in the first place?
    Yes, it is true.  And we don't have to take their word for it, because infallibility is a formula with rules that must be followed, just like a sacrament or canon law.  If you don't follow the rules, then something isn't valid, or it's illegal or it's not-infallible.  Infallibility is not some mysterious thing which only the pope knows how it works (that's contrary to the whole idea of catholicism, which is, that all members of the Faith believe, know and act the same).  Infallibility is knowable, provable and can be tested.  So when the V2 popes say that V2 was not-infallible and didn't define anything, they said so because it's true and (to those that know the rules) obvious. 
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