Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 68

Author Topic: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II  (Read 45415 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SeanJohnson

Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2022, 08:11:24 AM »
Quote from: TKGS on June 14, 2022, 08:07:08 AM
But can one doubt the Council but still believe that the popes who convened, ran, and implemented the Council were true popes?

Yes, when those same popes say the council did not engage infallibility.
Logged

Offline SeanJohnson

Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2022, 08:23:47 AM »
Vigano:

I ask then: if you admit, dear Father Thomas –  as a painful trial to which Providence is subjecting the Church in order to punish her for the faults of her most unworthy members and especially of her leaders – that the Pope himself is in a state of schism with the Church, to the point of being able to speak of an “internal papal schism”, why can you not accept that the same has happened for a solemn act like a Council, and that Vatican II was a case of “internal Magisterial schism”? If it is possible for this Pope to be “for all practical purposes schismatic” – and I would say also heretical – why could not that Council also have been so, despite the fact that both one and the other were instituted by Our Lord to confirm the brethren in Faith and Morals? I ask you, what prevents the Acts of Vatican II from deviating from the path of Tradition, when the Supreme Pastor himself can deny the teaching of his Predecessors? And if the persona Papae is in schism with the papacy, why could a council that wanted to be pastoral and abstained from promulgating dogmas not be able to contradict the other canonical councils, entering into a de factoschism with the Catholic Magisterium?

It’s true that this situation is a hapax, a case that in itself has never been seen in the history of the Church; but if this applies to the papacy – in a crescendo from Roncalli to Bergoglio – I do not see why it could not apply for Vatican II, which precisely thanks to the recent popes has set itself as an event in itself, and as such has been used by its proponents?

https://insidethevatican.com/news/newsflash/letter-21-monday-august-10-2020-again-the-council/
Logged

Online Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2022, 08:39:35 AM »
Great arguments from +Vigano.

Another point to ponder...which catholics is Francis talking about who won't accept V2?
1.  All the indult communities accept V2 (FSSP, ICK, etc)
2.  All the diocesan TLM priests/churches accept V2 (especially after Francis' docuмent TC, which re-emphasizes the acceptance of V2/new mass).  This would include fake conservatives like Bishop Schneider, Cardinal Sarah, etc.
3.  The new-sspx accepts "95%" of V2  (per +Fellay...but not everyone in the new-sspx agrees with him, thank goodness)

So what catholics are the "restorationists"?  Who does Francis consider the true enemies of V2? 
Answer:  The sedevacantists of many different shades, or..."hardcore R&R", including people like +Chazal, +Williamson, and +Vigano who question Francis' orthodoxy. 

The battle lines are becoming more clear, day by day.
Logged

Offline 2Vermont

Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2022, 08:47:51 AM »
Quote from: SeanJohnson on June 14, 2022, 08:11:24 AM
Yes, when those same popes say the council did not engage infallibility.
This is actually not true.   But even if it were, why should we believe the same people who gave us Vatican II in the first place?
Logged

Online Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2022, 09:04:40 AM »
Quote
This is actually not true.  But even if it were, why should we believe the same people who gave us Vatican II in the first place?
Yes, it is true.  And we don't have to take their word for it, because infallibility is a formula with rules that must be followed, just like a sacrament or canon law.  If you don't follow the rules, then something isn't valid, or it's illegal or it's not-infallible.  Infallibility is not some mysterious thing which only the pope knows how it works (that's contrary to the whole idea of catholicism, which is, that all members of the Faith believe, know and act the same).  Infallibility is knowable, provable and can be tested.  So when the V2 popes say that V2 was not-infallible and didn't define anything, they said so because it's true and (to those that know the rules) obvious. 
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 68
« previous next »