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Author Topic: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II  (Read 46076 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Quote
”To summarize: the ordinary magisterium of the Church is infallible when it is truly universal (in space and in time), that is to say, when it is in conformity to and continuous with the teaching of Faith of the Church.”
Exactly.  Time is an important aspect of the magisterium because ALL catholic doctrine originates from the Apostles.  There is no new doctrine.  Christ taught the Apostles EVERYTHING that we must believe; the fullness of the Faith.


The Church's job is to re-teach, clarify and make explicit that which has been implicitly held from the beginning, when such implicit truths are attacked, ignored or challenged.  The Church's tool to teach explicitly is called "papal infallibility".  And that's why every council decree and ex-cathedra infallible statement explains that the doctrine they are defining is part of Scripture/Tradition.  Because ALL catholic truths come from Christ.  "There is nothing new under the sun."

Offline DecemRationis

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Sean,

Thanks. I might purchase that book.

However, let me note, and Lad has brought this up repeatedly, that the issue of whether the "authentic Magisterium" could err remains - we are dealing with indefectibility more so than infallibility. Lad often brings this up in response to some comments that I make on the subject, as if I don't get it - I absolutely do.

My point in referencing "infallibility" is because that is what Vatican I, the infallible Magisterium, talks about. To my knowledge, the "infallible" Magisterium has never opined about "indefectibility." So to argue that the Church is indefectible by referring to "defectible" teachings is circular in my view: you have to accept an a priori the concept of indefectibility to rely on Magisterial statements below the infallible as indefectible or free from error.

Also, when we are talking about an ecuмenical council such as Vatican II, are we really only talking about "authentic" Magisterium? Perhaps Vatican II is discussed in the book, but the "authentic" Magisterium distinction still presents issues regarding indefectibility, and to me doesn't obviate the problem of an ecuмenical council approved by the Pope being erroneous. And we are not only talking about error here, but even perhaps contradiction with prior Magisterium statements, which present an logical or epistemological dilemma that is dangerously lurking behind all these discussions.

Obviously one way to resolve (as to the ecuмenical council problem) it is by holding that there is nothing seriously erroneous or harmful to the faith in Vatican II, and that Magisterial statements that are in such only come post-Vatican II in "authentic" Magisterial statements of popes, organs of the Vatican such as the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, etc. But then the problem of an "authentic" Magisterium contradicting prior "authentic" or even infallible Magisterial statements remains.

Which is why I say that the Conciliar Church experience requires a level of engagement with these issues that have been avoided, but I think won't go away: the prospect of an "authentic" Magisterium teaching not only falsely but even in contradiction to what the Magisterium has taught in the past.

To say the "authentic" Magisterium is not infallible evades that ultimate question and the consequences of it I think.
 


And let me add that the Sede solution - the Conciliar "Magisterium" is not the Catholic Magisterium - with its recognition that the Catholic Church could be "usurped" by false shepherds stands on its ear, and makes a mockery of, the protections afforded the Church by the Holy Ghost, which, if they mean anything, are provided to do just that, i.e. prevent such an "usurpation," and to be a guarantee against it.

The Sede solution is a salve "on paper," a solution at the level of theory, that allows one to continue to hold to a formulation of a "the Ordinary Magisterium is indefectible" theory in the face of a reality that laughs it to scorn as I see it.


Offline Stubborn

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Sean,

Thanks. I might purchase that book.

However, let me note, and Lad has brought this up repeatedly, that the issue of whether the "authentic Magisterium" could err remains - we are dealing with indefectibility more so than infallibility. Lad often brings this up in response to some comments that I make on the subject, as if I don't get it - I absolutely do.
The "Authentic Magisterium" is simply the Church's Magisterium, which is simply "authoritative teachings" that are always infallible, as this post from Lad quoting from popes declares.

These teachings contained in Scripture and tradition are proposed by the Church (The Authority) as matters to be believed as divinely revealed. These things we learn because they are taught to us either by her solemn judgement (ex cathedra definitions / Extraordinary Magisterium), the day to day teachings of her Catholic hierarchy, including her Catholic clergy, nuns, parents, etc. (Ordinary Magisterium), or are those things the Church has taught always and everywhere (Universal Magisterium).

Simple, no? If the pope or hierarchy teach something NOT found in Scripture and tradition, then it is not a magisterial teaching, that is, it is not of the Church's magisterium. As such, said teaching can contain error and as such, be harmful to the faithful.

The erroneous argument that usually arises is that the pope or pope and hierarchy *is* the magisterium, or, as Lad believes, what they teach become the magisterium, but this is altogether wrong as Sean has posted superb refutations on this.

Further, as such, the pope or pope and hierarchy are divinely protected from ever preaching error, which is to say the pope is always automatically infallibly safe to follow - which is the error taught by theologians of the past few centuries that the masses accept as though this error is a teaching of the Church.


To put it another way, a dogma is simply a doctrine, defined ex cathedra.

Per Pope Pius IX quoted in my post above yours, we are obliged to accept all the doctrines of the Church whether or not they have been declared ex cathedra.
Yes.  Exactly! 😊

I reject Vatican II and other works of the devil.