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Author Topic: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II  (Read 45938 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Of course I really understand why they do: They sense their entire enterprise is shot if they acknowledge a level of magisterium merely authentic (ie., It destroys the mantra that if he is pope, you must obey, and also destroys the mantra that a pope cannot teach doctrinal error). 
I agree that many (not all) sedes think an authentic/ordinary/non-infallible magisterium destroys their position.  But it doesn't.  Admitting that there is a fallible magisterium only highlights a minor logical error of sedeism (i.e. the pope can't become a heretic, which is a debatable point).  The fact that the magisterium can be fallible and infallible (depending on language used) actually STRENGTHENS the sede position overall.  Because it proves that the V2 anti-popes are heretics because of their PERSONAL heresy and not because the Church has erred or defected.

So this whole V2 crisis does NOT tarnish the purity of Christ's Bride, nor Her holiness of doctrine, nor Her clarity of Truth.  No, because The Church has not taught/required evil or error.  The anti-popes (through devilish trickery and legal mind games) promoted, condoned, and allowed error but never required, commanded or officially taught such.

A very important distinction which answers the apparent contradictions of our day.  Fr Chazal would agree with this.  +Williamson would agree with this.  Fr Wathen would agree with this.  +ABL would agree with this.  All current sedes should agree with this.

It occurs to me that what we are all arguing about for the last 50 years is the *best explanation* of the crisis.  And since such a crisis has a spiritual mystery component to it (because it concerns the mystery of salvation and also of the doctrines of indefectibility/infallibility), no one besides the Church can ultimately adequately and completely explain it.  So we wait for the perfect explanation.  But in the meantime, we should all agree on the distinction (but we won't, haha).


Offline DecemRationis

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Not infallible in an extraordinary,solemn manner, but according to the Supreme Ordinary Magisterium:

Finally, and also by definition, nothing can be part of the ordinary magisterium which lacks universality (both geographically and temporally). 

To deny this is to suggest that novelty can be magisterial.

Sean,

Here is the problem: almost all of the authority post-Vatican I would disagree with you. This is the crux of the problem, and why you have Sedevacantists - because of a teaching contrary to the above which was dominant among all the theologians and the wise ones preceding Vatican II.

Here's a quote from a post quoting a John Daly article (which exemplifies this contrary teaching):


Quote
4. Other escapists, unwilling to falsify easily verifiable facts about the Council itself, have cheerfully altered Catholic doctrine instead. They claim in particular that the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium is infallible only when the teaching it proposes is not only taught by all the bishops at a given moment but can also be shown to have been taught by them over a very lengthy period. To justify this claim they appeal to the famous “Vincentian Canon” or touchstone of traditional doctrine: “What has always been believed, everywhere, and by all.” This requirement is also useful to those who deny the Church’s teaching that Baptism “in voto” (by desire) can suffice for justification and thus for salvation.


But the requirement is in fact heretical! The teaching of the 1870 Vatican Council on the subject is dogmatic and plain and any doubt of interpretation is resolved by reference to the conciliar discussions. The term “universal” implies universality in place, not in time. In technical terms, it is synchronic universality, not diachronic universality, which conditions the infallibility. What has been believed always and everywhere is infallibly true, but teaching may be infallibly true without having been explicitly believed always and everywhere. The present teaching of the Church’s supreme teaching authority, whether expressed in a solemn judgment or by ordinary acts, is necessarily infallible and thus quite incapable of bringing in false or new doctrine, though it may render explicit what has been hitherto implicit or make certain what has fallen into doubt. If flagrantly false doctrine is taught under conditions that ought to guarantee infallibility, it is not just the novelty that must be rejected, but the authority imposing it also, for legitimate authority cannot err in such cases and blatant error is therefore a sure proof of illegitimacy.

https://www.cathinfo.com/the-library/did-vatican-ii-teach-infallibly/msg372568/#msg372568

You're an "escapist" with your "temporal" universality requirement . . . actually, that would be an improvement if you were only that, since your "temporal" requirement is in fact "heretical."  :laugh1:

This (the Daly view) is the "spirit of Vatican I" I referred to in a prior post. He says it's in the "conciliar discussions." I don't see it in what the Holy Ghost inspired in Vatican I, and this is the issue that needs to be revisited: does the Magisterium serve Tradition and what is handed down, protect and strengthen it, or does it, ipse dixit, simply say, "what we say is Tradition, shut up and obey."

The Daly view was a trap door to Vatican II. Or, you could say Vatican II was a monster the Sede theologians created . . . before they were "Sede."






I was just happy to see he finally admitted publicly that WE ARE MANY!!!
Previously we'd been relegated to some small group in backwater America.

Nope.

Both John XXIII and Paul VI explicitly denied its infallibility.

Vatican II was a unique breed of cat, and unlike all other councils (just as the new canonizations use the same terminology as traditional ones, but what is being “canonized” is a new conception of “sanctity”).
The new canonizations are infallible, if they were true popes. They fulfill the three conditions of Papal infallibility set forth at Vatican I. This is why obstinate adherance to R&R ultimately leads to a rejection of the Papacy.

In regard to your comment about John XXIII and Paul VI, that's completely irrelevant. It was proclaimed solemnly, whatever Paul VI said afterwards has no bearing on whether the Holy Ghost protected him from error in proclaiming something. Infallibility is granted by God to a true Pope when he proclaims doctrine in a certain manner. How could a quote from that man 10 years after the fact change what has already occured?

They also explicitly praised false religions, does that mean it's true? We all know the heretic Paul VI contradicted himself constantly, so it is ridiculous to use his contradictory statements on the weight of the authority of Vatican II to try and argue that is wasn't proclaimed in a solemn and infallible manner.

Offline Stubborn

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The new canonizations are infallible, if they were true popes. They fulfill the three conditions of Papal infallibility set forth at Vatican I. This is why obstinate adherance to R&R ultimately leads to a rejection of the Papacy.

Per V1, the pope is infallible when he defines a doctrine ex cathedra. The "three conditions" do not apply to papal infallibility per se, rather, the three conditions are explaining what "ex cathedra" means:

"We teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when;
1. in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians,
2. in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority,
3. he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church."

It is precisely because there were no doctrines defined ex cathedra at V2 that we know Pope Paul VI's words are in fact absolutely true when he said right after the Council that the Council "avoided proclaiming in an extraordinary manner any dogmas carrying the mark of infallibility.”

FWIW, per V1, the conditions for papal infallibility excludes canonizations because although it can be argued that items #1 and #2 are present in canonizations, #3 is not, never has been, never can be - simply because canonizations are not doctrines. So your assertion that NO canonizations are entirely dependent upon the status of popes is erroneous per V1.


In regard to your comment about John XXIII and Paul VI, that's completely irrelevant. It was proclaimed solemnly, whatever Paul VI said afterwards has no bearing on whether the Holy Ghost protected him from error in proclaiming something. Infallibility is granted by God to a true Pope when he proclaims doctrine in a certain manner. How could a quote from that man 10 years after the fact change what has already occured?

To say "it was proclaimed solemnly" is altogether subjective and means nothing, the plain fact is that infallibility was not present at V2 because at least one of the three conditions were always, 1) absent at V2 and 2) the presiding pope himself admitted they were absent because 3) they were absent, making 4) his admission true that 5) the Council was fallible.