Author Topic: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II (Read 45545 times)

Stubborn · « **Reply #240 on:** June 21, 2022, 05:48:26 AM »

Quote from: augustineeens on June 20, 2022, 11:18:05 PM

I would disagree.. the Magisterium teaches that heretics are not in the Church and has never made the exception for occult heretics. That also would destroy the Unity of the Church.

No, that is not what the Magisterium teaches:

Trent's catechism: "Heretics and schismatics are excluded from the Church, because they have separated from her and belong to her only as deserters belong to the army from which they have deserted."

Although they belong to her only as deserters, the catechism says they still belong to her - in spite of their trying to get out of it.

Do you see where the magisterium teaches that heretics belong to her - and how they belong too her? I bolded it for you. If you see and understand this, then you will also see that the magisterium does not teach heretics are not in the Church - they still belong to her.

You need to remember that Christ established the Church to save all men, Our Lord knows that She is our only refuge and is eager to bring sinners into her fold so they can go to heaven, not banish the sinner so as to be sure they go straight to hell. Yet this latter is the attitude sedes consistently portray her as having.

"I say to you, that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance."

Stubborn · « **Reply #241 on:** June 21, 2022, 06:09:32 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn on June 21, 2022, 05:31:13 AM

Even now that character remains - and will forever remain, marking him as having been a Catholic priest forever, which only adds to his suffering.

I want to add..... And if he is in heaven, this mark adds to the greater glory of God and the priest's heavenly joy - forever.

DecemRationis · « **Reply #242 on:** June 21, 2022, 06:25:56 AM »

Quote from: augustineeens on June 20, 2022, 11:18:05 PM

I would disagree.. the Magisterium teaches that heretics are not in the Church and has never made the exception for occult heretics. That also would destroy the Unity of the Church.

There is an interesting article that was posted here from Msgr. Fenton, where he discusses the question of whether an occult heretic is a member of the Church:

AER Fenton - - The Library - Catholic Info (cathinfo.com)

It is an open question, though the common opinion is that they are. Yet many eminent theologians oppose that, and, as shown by Msgr. Fenton's article, it was still an open question as late as 1950, and certainly hasn't been settled since.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #243 on:** June 21, 2022, 06:30:33 AM »

Quote from: DecemRationis on June 21, 2022, 06:25:56 AM

There is an interesting article that was posted here from Msgr. Fenton, where he discusses the question of whether an occult heretic is a member of the Church:

AER Fenton - - The Library - Catholic Info (cathinfo.com)

It is an open question, though the common opinion is that they are. Yet many eminent theologians oppose that, and, as shown by Msgr. Fenton's article, it was still an open question as late as 1950, and certainly hasn't been settled since.

There's some history for minority opinions, and the opinion that occult heretics are outside the Church is in the extreme minority and has been all but abandoned. It's not tenable to hold that occult heretics are not members of the Church due to the nature of the Church being a visible society.

DecemRationis · « **Reply #244 on:** June 21, 2022, 06:51:41 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on June 21, 2022, 06:30:33 AM

There's some history for minority opinions, and the opinion that occult heretics are outside the Church is in the extreme minority and has been all but abandoned. It's not tenable to hold that occult heretics are not members of the Church due to the nature of the Church being a visible society.

That it is not "tenable" is your opinion. As I said, and Msgr. Fenton's article demonstrates, it is still an open question. Or would one be a "heretic" according to Lad to hold it?

Msgr. Fenton notes of the contrary opinion - i.e., that occult heretic's are not members - that it is "still the unsubdued opposition to St. Robert's thesis." See page 216 (emphasis added).

Stubborn, you might like to read page 209, where the view of Cajetan and others that "all baptized persons" are "parts or members of the true Church," and "that the baptismal character constituted even a public apostate or heretic a genuine member of the Church," is mentioned. He does say that Cajetan's opinion did not survive the Counter-Reformation period. Page 213.

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Author Topic: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II (Read 45545 times)

Stubborn

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DecemRationis

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